@Tom: So, tens of millions of Russians died, so that the US could push them into poverty and starvation after the war for political reasons?

[ed.] And I would like to hear your view on my theory as to why Europeans don't trust the US — the constant threat of WWIII.

edited 7th Aug '11 12:40:06 PM by JethroQWalrustitty

@Tom

So the death of thousands of thousands of jews and europeans is nothing compared to an attack on a military base?

I also would have imagined that they lost their lives for stable allies, to stop an aggressive foreign power and widespread access to American trading partners

edited 7th Aug '11 12:39:07 PM by Thorn14

@USAF&Tom: You might also have ended up with a Soviet France. You think the French of today are bad?

Europe might be prickly as hell, but at least, and despite your comments to the contrary, they don't universally hate you and never did. Unlike a certain very large, very cold country to our east.

edited 7th Aug '11 12:39:24 PM by GameChainsaw

Ah, the argument of the Europeans that aren't worshipping the U.S. every day of the week after you saved us in the 40s. Yep, and we are really angry that some U.S. citizens dare not speaking French in their everyday life since La Fayette saved your revolution. And when the State of the Union speech is done in English, there are mass demonstrations and US flag burnings in the streets to yell against this criminal betrayal. We can start there and go to a pseudo-flame war, or just admit that we're friends, and friends do not always agree on everything. But at least we're not plotting your downfall for our long-term plans *look towards Beijing*.

edited 7th Aug '11 12:43:46 PM by RufusShinra

Also, as for "Europe stabbing US in the back", on what exactly? Vietnam? Central America? Iraq? All pretty sorry excuses for wars.

China doesn't want us to collapse since we're extremely vital to their economy, which is why this whole bruhaha of our economy is pissing them off so much.

edited 7th Aug '11 12:42:25 PM by Thorn14

Get off your high European horse, Jethro, we answered this. The Soviets would have taken you over in a heartbeat after World War Two if not for us. We (the Allies, specifically, though the US was the material aspect) and Operation Unthinkable were the only things between Western Europe and Soviet rule. If we had ever left, the Soviets would have been all over you.

Please, what has France done for us? The Allies saved their ass in World War Two and all we have to show for it is bullshit for the UK and hate for the US. Fuck that noise. The Russians can have them, if they want to be like that.

Edit: Yes, France helped in the War for Independence. So did Spain, and Spain hasn't asked us for a damn thing. Also, it's feasible we could have won without French help. France was utterly doomed without us. If anything, we're merely even, and therefore we need France as much as the EU needs Russia.

edited 7th Aug '11 12:44:09 PM by USAF713

"Please, what has France done for us?"

Our independence. The statue of liberty. For starters.

And Russia may had the manpower and physical resources for it, but the state would have collapsed before they reached the Rhine

edited 7th Aug '11 12:45:32 PM by Thorn14

The fact is that the US feels cultural debt to Europe. Does this need to stop?

They still have 3000 odd men in Afghanistan. So I actually withdraw my earlier comment about todays French.

Don't forget a chance to have some good food and girls that won't sue you if you watch them the wrong way. ^_^;

edited 7th Aug '11 12:46:29 PM by RufusShinra

Touche.

Still, Statue of Liberty + War for Independence = World War Two at best. Therefore, we no longer need France, and they don't need us.

Still want to know how they keep "Backstabbing us"

They aren't obliged to do everything we tell them too. They aren't vassal states.

What annoys many Europeans is that a lot of Americans seem to very much wish that we were vassals.

edited 7th Aug '11 12:48:03 PM by GameChainsaw

Americans feel inadequate. It's a Cultural Cringe.

And who would you get as allies except Canada and UK? We're different cultures, and it helps to have another viewpoint, and who is better placed as an old friend to tell you when you're screwing up? A lapdog will follow you to the catastrophe, falling with you. An enemy will let you sink and laugh. A friend will have some harsh words, maybe even slap you, but will do so in good faith, to help you avoiding his own failures. Never think you can always succeed alone.

And, for the cultural thingie, I must respectfully disagree. If, indeed, "Old Europe" has some cultural advantages over the U.S., as a frenchman, I must recognize your great talent for novels, series, movies in some domains. You're creating your own culture, and even if you have some stupid and low-quality things, you also have a lot of great artists, musicians, novelists, creators. Stop that inferiority complex, will ya?

edited 7th Aug '11 12:52:49 PM by RufusShinra

Uh what? Most Americans think this country is god's gift to earth and everyone should bow before us.

We're Rome 2.0

edited 7th Aug '11 12:50:03 PM by Thorn14

Please. I'd be happy if Europe were nice and constructive, rather than screaming "holy shit guys you fucked up again, what's wrong with you?!?!!!?11?!" You'll remember that Vietnam was France's fuck-up that we adopted trying to help their sorry ass. This is usually forgotten.

Europe doesn't even respect us any more. The status quo is back to where it was pre-war, where the US is supposedly "less" than Europe just because it's not Europe. Well, fine, we don't respect you either. We don't need your help and you don't need ours, so we can part ways and all will be fine the next day.

You'd be surprised. People hear "America sucks" often enough and they start believing it. Well, I hate American Exceptionalism, but I'd rather be stuck-up and alone than nice and surrounded by people who hate me.

edited 7th Aug '11 12:51:50 PM by USAF713

Give me one reason they should respect us nowadays.

And diplomacy is brutal, thats nothing new. Also Vietnam was a united French/American exercise in dickishness.

And maybe they wouldn't hate us if we stopped acting like the world's police, and claiming to be perfect when we cant even control our own country.

We are the Ted Baxter of nations.

edited 7th Aug '11 12:53:11 PM by Thorn14

Short answers:

Fiscally speaking: Shut them down and let the Europeans defend themselves.

Intl. relations wise: Keep them; the local economies make money off the soldiers, and the soldiers and their dependents get to enjoy a foreign country.

I was adressing Tom, and if I missed your reply, sorry, I can't find it right now.

But as for Soviet steamrolling:

1. USSR's main antagonist was Germany. Germany had been waging war in the eastern front that cost the lives of over ten million people. They wanted to get at Germany real bad. In fact, Stalin had suggested the mass killing of tens of thousands of high ranking Nazi officers and government officials.
2. Assuming Russia would have had to take on Germany alone/with aide from Britain, they probably would have still won, but with a higher cost, and then just marching over to France and further would have been too costly.
3. My home country stopped the Soviet Invasion by ourselves, thankyouverymuch, and we didn't ask for any Marshall Plan aid either, so you got shit on us.
4. The Red Army struggled with ooccupying with the east bloc that was, just imagine spreading that over the entire continent, including the still facsist Spain and Portugal.

So, in summary. No.

[ed.]

I did mention this in the other thread, but it was the defeat in Vietnam, as well aas defeat in Algeria and attemted coup d'tat in 1958 which lead to De Gaulle writing a new constitution, and France cutting its armed forces and kicking NATO out to Belgium. And yes, European ocuntries fuck up too, but if you took a glance at the graph I posted in the other thread, on military spending, can you guess who is number one, and by what margin?

edited 7th Aug '11 12:55:36 PM by JethroQWalrustitty

@USAF

You seem to have a chip french-fry on your shoulder.

I wouldn't say we don't respect you, just we don't agree with your decisions on everything. Yes there is anti US sentiment in Europe, as there is around the globe, even the US has anti US sentiment in it.

edited 7th Aug '11 12:53:07 PM by IanExMachina

It's Brittania 2.0, not Rome. If we were to compare to Rome, there were quite a few more in between.

I mean it gets down to the point... an Irish friend of mine said my accent sounded fake, like people couldn't possibly talk like that. It's down to that.

You know what, I don't have to.

I don't need Europe's respect.

I don't want Europe's respect.

The US went most of its existence with only the most basic connections to Europe. Before the World Wars, they were never our concern. As soon as we got involved, everything fell apart. Well, fuck that, they can fix their own problems, and we can fix ours, and everything will go back to how it should be.

If you don't want Europe's respect, then dont complain about the lack of it.

Its that attitude of "Fuck everyone else" that annoys them too.

Europe learned that they are in this together after WWII, and that they should work together for the greater good. What did we develop? An overinflated ego.

edited 7th Aug '11 12:55:03 PM by Thorn14