Pay off the debt - start taxing churches?

And other charitable organizations don't? They are tax exempt as well. Churches are not smoehow more charitable because of their churchness, if they violate the rules provided by the IRS, they lose their tax exempt status. I don't care if its to advocate gay rights or pro-choice, it violates the rules provided by the IRS to keep churches from influencing politics.

Very big Daydream Believer. "That's not knowledge, that's a crapshoot!" -Al Murray "Welcome to QI" -Stephen Fry

Charitable organizations are not religions. That's the difference. With religion comes (usually) a specific set of ethics that are typically a part of the faith. I don't see why those people would be precluded from attempting to influence politics to try and implement those ethics. Normal people get to do it all the time, after all. Everyone has a right to participate in politics, regardless of motives. If you don't like what they advocate, stand against it—don't try and stamp out their beliefs. Their morality is no more valid or invalid than yours. Stand on an equal plane with them and play fair, or don't play at all.

I am now known as Flyboy.

Skipping ahead, I'm going to sum up my position in a very succinct way.

If Humanist organisations and their ilk are taxed on non-charitable matters, then religious organisations should be treated the exact same way.

Hang the constitution, thats just fair. If thats in the constitution you need to change the constitution. Thats my stance anyway.

edited 7th Aug '11 11:27:55 AM by GameChainsaw

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

Separation of church and state.

It something we should not mess with. Ever.

No taxes for churches

No Nation under God.

We should not let our rationalism over take political reality.

edited 7th Aug '11 11:30:54 AM by Baff

I will always cherish the chance of a new beggining.

Laconic version: "Tax churches whose members don't vote the way I want them to."

“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard

Rottweiler, who was that at?

Very big Daydream Believer. "That's not knowledge, that's a crapshoot!" -Al Murray "Welcome to QI" -Stephen Fry

You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.

The editorial.

"With the flood of fundamentalist-backed legislation passing in GOP-controlled states, as well as in the GOP-controlled U.S. House of Representatives..."

He should at least have the courage to be a Jacobin rather than a mercenary partisan who would only punish churches whose members vote against his party.

“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard

^^ Are there any socially liberal churches? If so they deserve the same protections as socially conservative churches.

Your posts are basically amounting to "tax any organization that disagrees with me".

edited 7th Aug '11 11:42:41 AM by MajorTom

Savage@Not every church is conseravate;look at Glide Methodist Church in San Francisco.

Your liberal agencies are not generally religions. Yeah, now of course you'll go out and try to turn them into religions. Good luck. That's the difference. We have freedom of religion for a reason: just because you don't like what they espouse doesn't mean you can shut them up. Their opinion is equally valid to your own.

I am now known as Flyboy.

^ I agree with Tom. The law is the law in this case. If a church violates the requirements, they lose their tax-exempt status and its time to make that the case.

Very big Daydream Believer. "That's not knowledge, that's a crapshoot!" -Al Murray "Welcome to QI" -Stephen Fry

The counter-question to that is, "Should religions be allowed to circumvent the law in order to support their politics?"

The point the editorial is *

^{rather badly}

making, is that churches are not held to these requirements.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw

Well, I'm taking issue with the very definition of "non-profit." It seems very obvious: an organization that is not run for profit. I don't see how politics enter into it. What perhaps should happen is that "for profit" or not is not the benchmark for whether something is taxed...

I am now known as Flyboy.

And part of the definition, like it or not, is that non-profit organizations are not supposed to involve themselves in politics, or else they lose their non-profit tax-exempt status.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw

I was actually agreeing with that. I was saying that churches don't follow the rules but should.

Very big Daydream Believer. "That's not knowledge, that's a crapshoot!" -Al Murray "Welcome to QI" -Stephen Fry

Why is that? What does political activism have to do with non-profit?

I am now known as Flyboy.

My only guess if they dont want charities handing out "vote democrat" stickers with every free meal they hand out.

Its to keep non-profits from being set up purely to dump funds into them so that they can then influence public policy without any of the money being used so going to tax, I suspect.

Very big Daydream Believer. "That's not knowledge, that's a crapshoot!" -Al Murray "Welcome to QI" -Stephen Fry

It's pretty simple guys.. Churches are charitable organizations right? Make them prove it and hold to the same standards as other charitable organizations, and don't let them donate to political campaigns. It's pretty goddamn simple.

This makes me throw my Church of the God Emperor tax shelter idea out the window though.

No, Churches are religious organizations that may or may not have charitable sub-organizations.

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

Yes. That's been my point the whole time, though we've still been sucked into the charitable things. We tax religion, we open the door to anti-religious legislation, which is a huge no-no. They have every right to get involved in politics, too; it's a part of religion, after all. It's not like they're actually a unified front, either; there are thousands of different churches with conflicting views on their own gods, let alone what stance to take on a particular issue.

I am now known as Flyboy.

Politics and religion should never miss. I'm honestly surprised people don't see how this is a bad combination. We need practical views, not spiritual guidance.

edited 7th Aug '11 1:56:13 PM by GameChainsaw

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.

If religious organizations aren't charitable, then why are they getting tax cuts generally reserved for charities? This honestly feels like "If she weighs the same as a duck, then she's made of wood" logic.

Da Rules excuse all the inaccuracy in the world. Listen to them, not me.

Plenty. Presbyterians are pretty liberal, and MCC is really, really liberal.