Are opinions bad?

No reason why that should matter. But like I said, if I think something is perfect and somebody points out a flaw in it, it ceases to be perfect and loses its ability to bring the same level of joy.

Perfect > good but flawed, basically.

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Well I usually ignore people who hate a thing that I think is perfect. Unless they hate it because they found out the creators are like Neo-Nazis or something. Obviously then it would ruin it for me.

I don't see why the author's attitude would ruin the work itself. It angers me when people dismiss a work because of the author. Prejudice, basically.

Do you want me to have an opinion? Well, that's too bad. I'll have an opinion whenever I damn please.

I'll gladly take your opinions, I just don't have many to give out. :|

edited 6th Aug '11 6:16:09 PM by OrangeAipom

The author is the creator. If they have disdain for their fans, or are using their works as an Author Tract*

, it can easily detract from my enjoyment.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw

Well for me it's more about what I'm supporting when I buy the product. If he's a Neo-Nazi who's using the money to fund cross burnings or something, I don't want to be contributing to that. Usually it's not that extreme though.

On OP: So people should not say the reasons they dislike a work you like? We are all entitled to expressing our opinions and the reasons for why we feel a certain way.

That statement you made just raises a lot of Unfortunate Implications.

edited 6th Aug '11 7:07:34 PM by NickTheSwing

This is why I tend to simply avoid reviews and the Media forums. It's too easy to learn something I can't unlearn.

By not noticing the flaws.

Wait, what? Shouldn't people give reasons for when they voice a dissenting opinion, lest it be seen as completely without merit?

Opinions should be backed up, positive or negative. If you start to like something less because of someone else disliking it though, maybe you liked it less than you thought. You don't have to think something is perfect to enjoy it. EVERYTHING is flawed in some way, pretending it's perfect doesn't make you more of a fan of something, just a deluded one.

I disagree completely with the OP. There's something so fun and unique about debating a work's qualities, pros and cons. I think everyone should realize that whatever work they like isn't perfect and it has at least some flaw, and I think those discussions help wonders to fins said flaws and weigh them against the pros and see whether a work is good or not.

At least, that's the closest thing you'll ever get to an bjective way of measuring quality in media, anyway.

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.

I never knew the OP cared so much about the health of the site I'm on.

But seriously, it's not that we hated TGWTG at first, general consensus is that it used to be good but then it got filled with nothing but yes-man style fans and as a result the quality decreased but if you told that to anyone you'd get accused of trolling. So yes, to TGWTG Fans, opinions are bad because if your's is different from their's then you're a troll.

And the OP's mindset is pretty much exactly what's wrong with most of their fans, if you can't enjoy a work because it's not perfect, you're an asshole. Brad Enjoys all the bad movies he reviews despite them being just that.

edited 6th Aug '11 8:58:00 PM by Gerpy

YO YO YO! U CANT C ME! BOUT TO SPIT SUMTIN STOOPID!

Don't see how this follows at all. Seems kind of insulting, actually. It's not like anyone can magic themselves into liking something they don't.

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The point is that you shouldn't have to trick yourself into thinking something's perfect to like it. If you stop liking something the moment a few flaws are pointed out, you're a pretty shallow fan.

Also it's hard to take the OP seriously when he's talking about the Nostalgia Critic of all things, who's whole shtick from the start was criticizing things and pointing out flaws. Not liking a series based on negativity because of negative things said about it is just ridiculous.

It's not a question of tricking yourself, so much as just not noticing the flaws. I never used to make a habit out of analysing everything; most people don't, AFAIK.

There's also the fact that some people will go out of their way to attack fans as well as works, which if you're not sufficiently thick-skinned can be very off-putting, because it changes your liking of a work from innocent appreciation to something wrong with you. You start to wonder if you only liked the work in the first place because you were too stupid to know better.

I won't defend TGWTG; I've always found it rather perplexing that so many people would be fans of a critic and unable to handle criticism. But I daresay that's not true of the whole fandom.

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@ The OP, Busy Street ruined the Nostalgia Critic for you? Them? Really? They can only make a coherent and reasonable argument against anything 5% of the time, why are they ruining anything for you?

This line of thinking makes no sense, if you like something, ten you like it, and if you don't ten you don't and new information may flip flop that but you make it sound like noticing flaws will RUIN FOREVER something which really seems to be less an issue about criticism and more an issue about being so insecure about your own opinions that the slightest little thing will shatter it. This isn't about flaws and criticism, it's about you and various others in your shoes needing thicker skin and realizing that "Okay, this thing has flaws, but I still like it so i'll still enjoy it."

I mean The NC has ragged on a few movies I like and still like, but my enjoyment of them isn't diminished, I just say they have an excellent point, laugh along with their joke and proceed to enjoy my film. Or the Spoony One. His opinions has not deterred my opinion that the Legend Of Zelda games is one of the greatest video game series to ever exist, it just makes me dislike him more than I already do, but since I'm not going to is forums to flame him for having an opinion, no arm no foul.

There are too many arguments and debates where "Get over it" is never a valid answer. This is not one of them.

Next you'll say AHR's liveblog has ruined your enjoyment of El Goonish Shive.

edited 7th Aug '11 5:03:01 AM by MousaThe14

The Blog The Art

Maybe not. But I'm a little annoyed here because, while I think the OP is rather extreme, it seems to me that people aren't understanding the nature of the problem. It's not always a question of stopping liking things out of stubbornness or perversity; it can be a question of not liking them because you suddenly realise they're shit. Everything is shit, nothing is enjoyable. It's not an easy mindset to break out of. I've spent the past four years or so trying.

edited 7th Aug '11 5:10:18 AM by BobbyG

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Keep in mind that their opinions are no more valid than your own. Just someone makes a valid point against a work, that doesn't mean the work is any worse. Certain flaws will be more severe to certain people. For example, The Nostalgia Critic's hamminess could be seen as charming or annoying, it all depends on the perspective.

And no, ignoring someone else's opinion isn't the right option. If you like a work, other people shouldn't really going to change that, but if they do then so what? Now you know your true opinion about the subject. But it often causes the effect that you feel insecure, and convince yourself that you don't like it in order to feel like you're correct. On the flip side, if you ignore other people's beliefs and act like the work is perfect, you're just in denial.

Just accept the flaws, respect opposing beliefs, and feel as you wish.

I have my doubts about that. Your subjective opinion shouldn't change because of someone else's contradictory opinion. The only thing that causes such problems is a desire to be objectively right, even in areas where there is no right answer. To put it simply: you can't "realize something is shit" because it's all subjective. If you like something, then it's good to you.

edited 7th Aug '11 5:22:02 AM by Heartbreaker

Leave your dignity at the door.

No, but a work can have flaws which you would have agreed to be flaws had you noticed them beforehand, but you didn't because you were swept up in an insulating bubble of fannish glee.

I guess there's a part of me that just doesn't understand the fan mindset. How can we like things that we believe to be flawed? Flawed things should be thrown away and replaced, not placed on a pedestal.

The last time I started thinking about this seriously I concluded that everything was subjective, flawlessness was impossible and no work was genuinely better than another, but apparently that's an unhealthy mindset as well so IDK.

edited 7th Aug '11 5:31:34 AM by BobbyG

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That's exactly it. Just because something is flawed, that doesn't mean it's bad. If a diamond has a hairline crack in it, would you just toss it into a dung-heap? No, you either sell it for a small fortune or put it somewhere nice.

Sure, a jeweler might tell you about the crack, but it's still going to look freaking boss on your scepter or what have you.

Leave your dignity at the door.

I dunno. Something about the idea of a beautiful diamond with a hairline crack in it strikes me as slightly disgusting, somehow. Like a shining, mouthwatering fruit that's filled with maggots on the inside.

Except, rationally, that's a horrible comparison because obviously the diamond is fit for purpose and the fruit isn't. This is starting to sound pathological, sorry.

Perfection. That'll be it: I am obsessed with perfection. Sorry about that. Carry on.

edited 7th Aug '11 5:52:20 AM by BobbyG

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Yeah, that's more like something that's horribly, horribly flawed, not something that you would only notice on very close analysis, and which you wouldn't really care about even if you noticed it. But a jeweler telling you "DIAMOND IS FLAWED AND BAD GOBBLE GOBBLE GOBBLE" will probably make you agree with them because, well, the diamond IS flawed. The valid point doesn't mean it's objectively bad though. As a unique, opinionated person, he believes the problem to be of a certain severity. I'd look a the diamond and say "yeah, but it's still a sexy shiny diamond."

edited 7th Aug '11 5:56:26 AM by Heartbreaker

Leave your dignity at the door.

Or, you know, just turn around and try to cover the crack.

Anyway, on-topic:

As it is, humans aren't perfect, and as such, nothing they create is perfect. A work having flaws and these being noticeable and yet enjoying the hell out of that work in question is not wrong. But it's preferable when the work doesn't have noticeable flaws.

"My life is my own" | If you want to contact me privately, please ask first on the forum.

I'm not going to agree with the OP's prescriptive claims, but the phenomenon they describe— i.e. having one's enjoyment of a work ruined by somebody pointing out "valid reasons to dislike it"— is not particularly bizarre, and does not depend on an obsession with perfection. It's just a matter of what grabs and keeps your attention, and it needs to be recognized that it isn't always easy or possible to force yourself to keep your attention focused more upon the parts you like than upon the parts you don't. There is a breaking point where the parts you dislike are too numerous/important for you to ignore, and you can be pushed to that point by somebody drawing your attention to things of which you were previously unaware.

Heh. Someone on SA apparently doesn't like my thread.

I am amused by this.

Oh, this can be a big problem, definitely.