Marvel Cinematic Universe

So wait?

We do hate Wanda more here?

I mean, I just want to be clear on this.

Not that I don't see the point and all that.

It's more a 50-50 split about Wanda.

I love Wanda.

Or is it like 33.3-33.3-33.3 or something? Some people here like her and defend her, some dislike her and don't defend her, some like her but still don't defend her. I think I'm in the last camp myself.

I'm in the third camp too.

I blame the writers.

edited 26th Sep '16 9:53:15 PM by KnownUnknown

I really hope they'll touch on it some later on, but for now I'm just a bit disappointed in it.

Civil War was still awesome, though.

Though I think it's definitely a problem that her actions with Ultron haven't been addressed, I do suspect it's more a problem of rewriting rather than Protagonist-Centered Morality. Recall that Wanda wasn't going to be on the Avengers in the last scene of AOU, it was going to be Captain Marvel in that shot. Perhaps Whedon intended a different fate for her.

edited 26th Sep '16 10:13:24 PM by Tuckerscreator

I'm cool with her. I do think it was a poor narrative decision to have her sic Hulk on an inhabited city without remorse.

If she had maybe, I don't know, just want to have him got after the Avengers, only for her to go "Shit, I didn't mean to do that" when he went towards an inhabited area, that might have been better. Let her ask the question, "How am I any better than Tony Stark?"

I still don't know how Whedon thought it would be a good idea to introduce a character - a new Avenger, no less - in the closing scene of the movie.

edited 26th Sep '16 10:14:31 PM by KarkatTheDalek

My issue with wanda come when you compared Ao U with CW, on her own is a fine chararter with all about Lagos and wanted to be acepted, she is pretty much MCU version of jean grey.

But as that tumblr post said, she have what I call "redemption blink" in which she jump between villain to Hero and it asume she is atoning because well...she is with the good guys, and it get more annoying as south africa is not mention at all, which it seen weird consider is ROSS we are taking about, which make me suspect it harm Wanda(and for extention, the avenger) too much

Overall, I like her n civil war but I feel they....rigged the think a little bit too much for my linking

I am in neither camp in that I also tend to think that she needed a little bit more room to breath in Ao S (That is really the main problem of the movie, there is so much stuff in it that it rushes through a lot of important points to its detriment), so when the movie ended I was pretty indifferent about her. But I don't tend to worry too much about wonky early instalments when a later instalment manages to improve on a character, which is the case in Civil War. I love what they do with Wanda there, especially the part that she can't control the fear of others, but needs to control her own.

But I nevertheless feel that the hate she gets is more about defending Tony than about a few wonky writing moments, since a lot of characters have those. I disliked Bruce in The incredible Hulk, loved him in The Avengers. Black Widow only got better and better with each instalment, with the notable exception of Ao S which I consider a step-back for both her and Bruce. Hawkeye on the other hand is a character I enjoy since Ao S and absolutely adored in Civil War, as small as his role is in this. Rhodey is a character I outright disliked in most of the Ironman movies but who has grown on me, too (again, mostly due to Civil War, Marcus and Mc Feely just have such a good handle on all those characters).

edited 27th Sep '16 12:08:32 AM by Swanpride

I don't really have a horse in this race. I think it's a bit odd that the narrative treats her as a hero and never brings up Johannesburg again, but I'm mostly just here to watch superpowered people punch each other's lights out so I tend to not think too hard about it. MST3K Mantra, and stuff.

I like Wanda as a character more than I like Tony, and I like Tony fine.

Wanda is in a tricky spot because she doesn't have her own movie for these kinds of things

And I feel that the Russos had enough on their plate without addressing the hulk incident because that's a quagmire

One just has to assume that her time on the Avengers is her penance.

If there ever is a Scarlet Witch solo or duo movie then Johannesburg should absolutely be part of her arc there but otherwise Whedon sort of made the character difficult to use in a movie without just brushing by it.

For whatever it's worth, like Tony, Wanda seems committed to trying to do the right thing now. Like Tony, her success rate is mixed

I believe people are overblowing the Johannesburg incident. We are shown the Hulk attack from start to end and the only people he could have killed are the ones from the bus he attacked, which would have been like 5 more or less. The others the movie is clear to show that are only heavily hurt, regardless of your opinion if that's bs or not, and not killed. Not saying that isn't bad, but not as bad as most people are trying it to make.

And seriously, it wasn't Wanda intención forma Hulk to attack Johannesburg, as she can only vive bad visión, not mind control. There was no way for her to know he was going to Johannesburg, instead of where the resto of the avengers where or any other placer. Not saying she isn't responsible, bit people act like she wanted Hulk to attack Johannesburg.

And for last, I would say that attack is more the fault of the Avengers than Wanda. Who con their right mind would leave Banner alone? They where totally calling forma that to happen. Is one of the few times where they should left Black Widow and/or Hawkeye behind to protect him in case things go south. Is like leaving a nuclear bomb alone and unprotected in the quinjet and blaming the bad guys of stealing it.

I like Wanda a lot but I wish they did more regarding her guilt, so I guess I'm also in the third camp. Over on Tumblr she does get a bit of a Draco in Leather Pants treatment, and on places like Reddit they tend to be dismissive of her prior villainy and subsequently her moral agency because they're too busy fawning over her as a waifu. Ironically /co/ of all places is one of the few that's had people be fairly on point with calling her out on being kind of a Karma Houdini, in between all the waifu bullcrap and more unreasonable kinds of hate. It's more interesting for her to be a morally grey figure who still regrets her previous bloodthirstiness and is more explicitly being in the Avengers to atone, than to have all her sins automatically wiped away by the death of her brother in a simple karma trade, and become a pure Woobie after that.

Unfortunately the Civil War writers went out of their way to be dismissive of her actions in AOU and saying she's fully atoned for them by the point of Lagos. They even contrasting her to WS Bucky oddly enough, by saying he was more guilty than her, even though she did what she did in AOU of her own free will while he never once had a choice. So we're not going to see those aspects addressed by them, though another writer might wanna tackle it. It's a shame too because because we could have had interesting parallels and friendship between those two if they focused more on Wanda's guilt.

I'm in the last camp too. I've been saying for a while that the best way to handle her arc would have been to have some quick dialogue in AOU's ending about how Stark hired some awesome lawyers and Captain America made a stirring speech to her defense in front of the ICC, and she's been formally remanded to the Avengers' custody to serve out her sentence for her crimes as a member of the organization.

It would simultaneously justify Wanda's presence - both in the Avengers and the United States - while also establishing that there are at the very least diplomatic connections between the Avengers and the governments of the world. A cooperative relationship with official law entities, like in the comics where Avengers are actually regarded as a formal peacekeeping organization in their own right.

The creative team has instead opted for "Feeling bad for your crimes automatically absolves you of any legal responsibility," instead. Which was a really bad writing decision.

edited 27th Sep '16 8:50:39 AM by TobiasDrake

I'm kind of in the last camp too in that I'm not a real fan of Tony or his treatment of Wanda, but at the same time I don't think in the real world Wanda would or probably should get off the hook for equivalent actions (the closest equivalent would presumably be someone whose very sympathetic Freudian Excuse motivated them to bomb civilians in terrorist attacks).

Part of why I previously argued with Tobias over the idea of Tony turning on Wanda/her being in the United States illegally is that it makes no sense the movies don't go the route Tobias describes as what should have happened. I mean like having it that way sort of supports the pro-Reg perspective but like if you are framing things at the end of AOU to the effect that she's atoning by being an Avenger, IMO it implies some kind of handwave to the effect that Wanda is a Boxed Crook/got a "Get Out of Jail Free" Card.

And one consequence of the absence of that explanation coupled with Tony's behavior toward Wanda in Civil War is it makes her being an Avenger/not being imprisoned for her crimes a Team Cap vs. Team Tony issue. Like I don't think this was necessarily the intent in AOU, but it's not too surprising that someone would come away with the view that the rest of the Avengers pressured Tony into accepting her on the team. And depending on your "side", one probably either sees it as either Tony or Cap being hypocritical and unempathetic.

Going back to my original thought, the problem with going from AOU to Civil War and just the decision in general to do a "Civil War" plotline, is that it takes what could have been a situation where characters have differing opinions and personalities, but ultimaely get along and can reach some kind of workable compromise to one where those disagreements are settled with violence and the disagreements are presented in terms of diametrically opposed ideologies.

edited 27th Sep '16 9:21:01 AM by Hodor2

Which harm Steve side, which I think is the reason they didnt show south africa since the avenger dosen shine well, again if feel odd that Ross who have huge hate for Hulk miss that change.

" than to have all her sins automatically wiped away by the death of her brother in a simple karma trade, and become a pure Woobie after that."

That dosent even work because Pietro sacrifice himself in his own volition to save somelse, no for wandas action, and even them it feel "Wanda suffer so that even everything" which as Tobias said, put her angst as level to atone

"They even contrasting her to WS Bucky oddly enough, by saying he was more guilty than her, even though she did what she did in AOU of her own free will while he never once had a choice"

Yeah, movie put guilt on bucky and tony and while they have it, their situation carry context, Wanda did stuff and.....it just move on, it feel weird

edited 27th Sep '16 9:16:24 AM by unknowing

My issue with the "but she did XY" or "but she is illegal in the country" argument is more a question of applying the law the way it should be used. It should be about justice, not about first ignoring certain truths about a person but then suddenly changing your mind in order to put pressure on said person. Due process exists for a reason.

Kevin Feige talks about Wong.

Also in reference to those possible characters in the prequel comic it sounds like Tina Minoru isn't referenced by name in the film but Daniel Drumm does cameo.

He also seems to shoot down that fan theory about the movie somehow introducing other Marvel franchises from different studios into the MCU (which was a longshot to begin with and I'm not even sure how it became a thing):

edited 27th Sep '16 12:32:23 PM by comicwriter

Good. Hopefully that's not just PR talk and Wong's role does have some meat on it. Wait and see, I suppose.

I find the fact that it's seemingly-normal-guy Hawkeye who gives Wanda her in into the Avengers intriguing. As shown in that one link, he was a villain (however briefly) in the comics, and he and Black Widow reformed each other, in a way. The MCU Hawkeye also seems to draw on the Ultimates, though, where he's pretty clearly some kind of assassin, and in the films it seems like he's the one who turned Natasha, rather than the other way around.

Point being, it seems like there's some common feeling between Clint and Wanda over wanting to atone. It's all so subtextual, though. I'd really like to see some of this stuff unpacked for us onscreen.

...and that's why they should make an And the Rest movie. Black Widow And Hawkeye, 2018. With a side order of Scarlet Witch and the Vision.

edited 27th Sep '16 2:35:27 PM by Unsung

https://reellifebygrace.com/2016/09/27/wanda-maximoffs-room-backstory-in-less-than-3-minutes/

Some really good points about some really settled details in Civil War.

Strange IMAX poster◊.

And I thought Luke Cage was sneaking up on me.

IMAX trailer