Doctor Strange

I think one problem is I didn't know what to expect out of this film: what my take away was supposed to be other than "good movie".

I just came back from Doctor Strange. Great acting from everyone with a name, Kaecilius was a pleasant surprise compared to the non-Loki origin movie villains, The dynamic between Strange and Mordo was well utilized, I actually grew to care about Christine being in the film, The magic and explanation for it was both interesting and exciting to see in action, Dormammu looked suspiciously like Thanos but the way he was beaten was cool, and the cape being sentient was a fun idea.

edited 1st Dec '16 7:05:36 PM by VeryMelon

So I saw the film, highlights were definitely some of the visuals but felt most of the rest was underwhelming. A lot of it was checking things off a list like alienating your closest friend, Training Montage, Arbitrary Skepticism, Mentor Occupational Hazard, etc. The problem was that this was so preoccupied with Strange's training that it misses the mark on just about every other character, especially Christine. I would put it rather low on the overall MCU ranking system, the inventive visuals rank it above Thor and Incredible Hulk but just barely. Cumberbatch himself has a few good moments but not enough. "I have come to bargain" and The Stinger with Thor is the part where I feel that is the persona they should have weaved into the entire story instead of leaving it for the end.

I think that's a pretty distinct "Sorcerer Supreme" persona (even if he doesn't hold that title yet), so I don't really think that that he could really have it before those moments.

I don't think the origin story they told was interesting enough to justify the time spent on it. I'd rather have seen him get deeper into his training in this movie, become deserving of the mantle, and they had a perfect excuse for condensing that process with the Time Stone. If they were going to focus on his training, then I still wish they'd gone with that rumoured idea that Strange was going to have had his accident in 2008 and spent the last 8 years in Kamar-Taj.

edited 19th Dec '16 4:22:07 PM by Unsung

I certainly would have preferred if they specified that his training occurred over a very long period of time. As it stands, I'm not entirely sure how long it took.

Not long enough, which bothers me, too. I wouldn't have minded if the accident happened years ago. I really don't get why they went for such a tight time frame.

A genuine pacing problem is that, assuming the movie is chronological (outside the use of the time stone) then what was Kaecilius doing in the time between stealing the page and when he decided to make his move? Even if it was a matter of 2-3 months, a low guess, for Strange to have his accident, recovery, multiple surgeries and get desperate enough to go to Tibet, all we see Kaecilius do is read the page and harness dark dimension energy. Strange's recovery from the crash alone should have been around 4 months, with several weeks in between each additional surgery to see if it worked.

And I never really bought into Strange as a selfish asshole a la Stark. Most of his character development and training is told by others rather than shown and explored, which is why it hurt the film to not explore more of the culture at the monastery. The thing about Dr. Jerk characters is they are still doctors and have some morality and concern for others. In his case the absolute worst thing he did re-accident (which leaves him some sympathy no matter how mean he gets) was dismissing a patient for being high risk and harming his track record. His "trait to repent of later on" should probably focused more on that, him being such a staunch professional that he can't conceive of failure, making the "I have come to bargain" scene be about him accepting his limitations rather than discovering a desire to not let people die.

They really should have committed to Strange as an arrogant jerk at least as snarky as House, since we have such a limited time to see that part of his character. He spends more time as a washed-up desperate wreck, and that makes him too sympathetic for his transformation from POS to hero to feel complete, even if they weren't going to take him all the way to Sorcerer Supreme in his first outing. Which they still should have.

edited 19th Dec '16 4:30:58 PM by Unsung

Yes, the film would have lost nothing if Strange's training had lasted from 2008 to 2016.

I wouldn't have wanted him to become Sorcerer Supreme in this movie. As it stands, I think his advancement is pretty rushed as it is.

It also would have lost nothing if they had moved the scene when the pages are stolen to the moment when Strange is put through the portal. I know the scene is supposed to be funny, but I think it would create way more tension of the Ancient One and Mordo get distracted while waiting for Strange by the attack, so that he is in actual danger. I mean, do we really think that they wouldn't have looked for him in time to prevent him from actually dying? Unless they were tied up elsewhere.... This would also have the additional benefit that there won't be a question of "where was the villain in the meantime"....and they could have put a scene in early on in which he clashes with the Ancient one.

That is actually my big beef with the movie. As impressive as the initial chase scene is, I would have preferred it if they had built up to the actual magic. Too much, too soon.

I don't really need to see that development onscreen. Doctor Strange is much more interesting having already become the Sorcerer Supreme than he is bumbling his way through the early steps— it's really hard to top that when Iron Man already did it so much better (and continues to do it). I'd rather see a character who represents a man who's learned the lessons Tony still needs to learn. And I think we could have gotten there. A Time Skip, a Training Montage, and an even more extreme version of the "Groundhog Day" Loop at the end, and they could have pulled it off.

If the movie feels rushed, that's because they're rushing, but you can convey a great deal of information in a single brief flashback or montage.

What I'd have loved is if Kaecilius and Strange were in Kamar-Taj at the same time, if Kaecilius was one of Strange's teachers before the K-Man and his followers betrayed the city.

edited 21st Dec '16 2:20:10 AM by Unsung

I don't think the movie did a very good job showing him becoming the Master of the New York sanctum. After he is promoted, we hardly spend any time there until The Stinger.

Am I alone in still really liking this movie, despite the flaws that you guys pointed out?

Nope I like it...I actually like it more the more often I see it...I felt let down the first time I watched it, but seeing it again made me realize that this was mostly because all those special effect kind of distracted from the themes the movie addressed. It is smarter than some people give it credit for. There is just so much going on at once...and the time-line is REALLY wonky. Not my fav in the MCU, but definitely in the top 10.

Definitely one of my favorite MCU movies. It's not fantastic, but for me it was efficient and overall pretty good. Watched it twice even.

Of course I really like it.

Is it possible that the movie is using Anachronic Order? The scene with the pages getting stolen could happen shortly before Strange arrives in Kamar-Taj but is shown at the beginning to build tension. Alternatively the ritual had some kind of time component that force Kaecilius to wait for several months.

Even then Strange would have been around training for quite some time at this point....

But what actually really bothers me is if the Ancient one could see in the future, why didn't she do anything in time? Was this the last worse option of all the possible futures she saw?

The impression I got is that she can see the different branches but every single one that didn't involve the destruction of the world converged on that point.

The only thing Kaecilius does in between stealing the ritual page and attacking the sanctums is perform the ritual and show that he can start screwing with dimensions. Without any further explanation for what he was doing, the best case scenario would be to have Strange somewhere else in the monastery when the theft takes place and over a couple days at most he is asking questions about what just happened.

Strange is far from a bad movie, it has enough amusing moments to make it a fun watch. But that is sort of the common complaint about the MCU, the amusement factor is placed so high that the story, characters and/or narrative is complete nonsense if you start thinking about it.

I don't think that the amusement factor is the problem, especially since there aren't that many jokey scenes to begin with in the movie. The one big joke, the cloak, actually works perfectly in the movie. What drags Doctor Strange down are structural issues - I think the script could have used one last rewrite with a closer eye to continuity and built-up.

I actually do think it is a problem for this film. The primary emphasis is on the learning of magic and getting a laundry list of abilities Strange can use in the climax, which is visually very fun but it reduces the story to a lot of training vignettes and special effects over actual character growth. Outside the cloak, the humor was relatively subdued but still had a small detrimental effect. Strange dropping music references felt like an attempt to make him seem hip, but Cumberbatch naturally plays external characters (people who don't have much interest in the rest of society), not inclusive ones. The silly "Thank you" after they opened the door to him is literally playing his character for a joke. Like a number of things, it's not bad if that is how they are trying to play his character, a thorough Humiliation Conga and Break the Haughty, but they don't play it that way in general. He was trying to maintain some dignity and was reaching a Despair Event Horizon, so tossing in that joke offsets the character and tone of the story.

Also, like I said before, a number of things are said rather than shown. Mordo says Strange has strength because he sat outside that door for at most an afternoon. In fact the entire rejection to later just accept him was unnecessary, nothing was gained by having that as part of the story.

I actually think that the "humor" is supposed to be awkward in those moments, so that Wong's observation about only his employees finding Strange funny actually works.