Dey Turk our Jerbs! - Immigration, legal and not

On this forum I occasionally hear scorn for lower-class whites complaining about immigrants stealing their jobs (You get an anti-immigrant sentiment in a lot of the western world, I get the impression that in the US it's mostly "They're taking our jobs", in Germany ans Scandinavia it's mostly "They won't assimilate into our culture and are living off welfare", and in Britain and France it's a bit of both).

So for those who scorn white trash whining about the threat to their jobs, is it because:

• you think the fear is unwarranted, that immigration doesn't increase competition for low-qualification jobs?

• you think the fear is justified, but just don't like white trash so don't care if they lose their jobs?

• something else?

Well, on one hand, I'll throw the xenophobes a bone and say yeah; if you come to a new country and get a job, thats one less space for a native to take. However...

Many immigrants, particularly from the poorest backgrounds, tend to take jobs that aren't being done by native 1st worlders anyway. They tend to be less picky.

Furthermore, more people in a country means a larger market. This means that even if immigrants do take up jobs, and they are jobs the natives are interested in, they also increase the market size and help business expand. There is a certain degree of organic growth which comes from an increased population.

This is mostly my common sense, or "common" sense speaking if you don't agree with it. I may have fallen victim to lack of knowledge, or even Insane Troll Logic.

Both of these are my main sticking points.

I've lived in California my entire life, so I've been pretty up close and personal with the Mexican immigration situation here.

I have a problem with illegal immigrants on the pure basis of them being illegal, I do however think the process for receiving legal immigrants needs to be made easier and less costly. However I also think we shouldn't show any mercy to illegal immigrants, throw the fucking book at them. What they did was against the law, and they knew that when they did it. Premeditated crime doesn't deserve light consequences.

My family are relatively recent immigrants, having came here less than a century ago. They came here legally, and faced all sorts of discrimination during the Cold War by virtue of being recent Russian immigrants. None of them are cultural shut-ins, even my great grandparents who came here first. They are their own little fusion of Russo-American, and worked their asses off to make a living for themselves. They learned English very quickly all things considered, because of how hard it was to get by without it.

That being said, I cannot fucking stand immigrants who don't speak English and don't even seem to make an attempt to learn it, and stick in their own little cloistered cultural bubble. Given that the West Coast doesn't have huge amounts of immigrants besides Mexicans(Yes, there are good sized populations of asian immigrants of relatively recent generations in some pockets, just not in my little corner of So Cal)

To be completely and utterly bare-bones honest with y'all? I kind of have a love/resent relationship with them. They come here illegally, have tons of fucking kids, go years and years without learning a whole lot of english(Many of them have to have their kids translate for them since they speak english at school, and the families get by because almost everyone down here understands spanish to some degree), and the kids are one of the worst problems.. Some Mexican Families are really strict and watchful parents who do their best to raise their kids right, but the majority seem to somehow fail at parenting and are inattentive as all hell to their own children.. All the young American born ones are disrespectful little pieces of shit who get all inundated with gang culture. They blare rap music all over the place, mad dog me on my own block, and every weekend around here most of them are out on the front lawn playing Mexican music at max volume as if the whole god damn neighborhood wants to hear it.

I've met plenty of good examples of Mexican immigrants down here. Many of whom are hard-working, friendly to a fault, and seemed to be absolutely awesome people who are happy to be here. But for every one of those that I meet, it seems like the number of shitbags I see and meet around town is in the tens. Perhaps I'm being an asshole, but I like to be honest about it.

Oh, and please stop fucking talking in Spanish around white people as a means to talk without us listening. Most white native californians know what you're saying. Thanks.

Now keep in mind if I had the power to legally change this situation, I wouldn't. What they are doing is well within their rights, with the only exception being the illegal immigration part, for those that are illegal. I'd rather we made the legal immigration process more appealing, and at the same time clamped down double-hard on the border.

I suppose the only reason why I don't worry about the job situation is because my job will never be outsourced to immigrants, can't be a cop if you're an illegal.. Kind of an oxymoron.

edited 17th Jul '11 3:32:41 AM by Barkey

In Singapore, because of conscription, its: "Those damned "foreign talent" are stealing our jobs and women while we are slaving away in the army!".. sometimes it feels like our government values foreigners more than its own citizens.

Something else. Jobs don't belong to the job holder, they belong to the employer.

^^

I wonder if foreigners are the ones making your guns? Because they kind of suck.

Particularly that jammy mess, the ultimax, in particular.

The Ultimax 100 is a Singaporean 5.56mm light machine gun, developed by the Chartered Industries of Singapore (CIS, now ST Kinetics) by a team of engineers under the guidance of American firearms designer L. James Sullivan.[2] The gun is extremely accurate due to its low recoil.[3]

For me, these kind of attitudes assume that there is a fundamental difference between "our" people and "foreign" people, and that "our" people are automatically more desirable. Considering that I feel both of those positions to be utter bullshit, I say that they are held by ignorant bigots or people looking to exploit ignorant bigotry.

Barkey speaks a lot of the truth I know too. In Colorado illegal immigration affects us directly, especially in the southern half of the state. Hardly a week goes by where something illegal immigration related (drug runners, human trafficking, etc.) isn't busted on Interstate 25.

I have nothing against legal immigrants whatsoever, but you will never get my support for light handed shit like amnesty. We tried that 26 years ago, it didn't work and it only encouraged more. This time we need to throw the fist at them, I don't care if we have to deport millions of people.

So you take the second position then, that maybe the white trash are right when they say the immigrants are taking their jobs, but that it doesn't matter.

I for one consider that of course a government should look out for the interests of it's own citizens first - that doesn't mean it's citizens are "more desirable" in the absolute, it's just a government doing it's job, as they do all over the world.

Jauce: eh, if it's just "foreign talent", you probably have it better than a lot of Western countries, who have to deal with unskilled workers from a different (and sometimes hostile) culture that are numerous enough to have their own communities instead of integrating. Singapore's "foreign workers" policies look reasonable enough.

edited 17th Jul '11 6:19:27 AM by SlightlyEvilDoctor

One argument this one heard was not about "taking our jobs" per se, but that the very willingness of immigrants to accept such jobs undermines the power of native workforce over employers. This one is not sure if it is a good argument, but that's what she heard.

• Employers will pay as low and place conditions as low as they can get away with, both legally and economically
• There is a certain standard, lower than which an employer cannot go, because no native would agree to work for them
• Therefore, it is rare for employer to attempt to go lower, and conditions satisfactory to the most of the native workforce are maintained.
• It is a dynamic equilibrium that took a lot of time, effort, struggle and even death to reach.
• But when desperate immigrants who are willing to work in worse conditions arrive, it is broken. Native workforce can no longer make demands to employers to maintain standards they are used to, because not so picky immigrants can be easily hired to replace them.

In other words, by agreeing to lower wages and conditions, immigrants lower those for natives.

- Employer: I pay you 40

- Potential worker: 50

- Employer: (searches, can't find anyone who would agree to 40) Fine, 50

- Employer: I pay you 40

- Potential worker: 50

- Employer: Fine, I'll just hire an immigrant for 40. So take my offer or go die

edited 17th Jul '11 6:34:55 AM by Beholderess

Mass immigration is a serious problem. It has been destructive to British culture, devastated the indigenous working class, and brought hordes of foreign criminals.

Migrants take the jobs from young Britons.

Frank Field: 9/10 new jobs go to immigrants.

I believe that this is morally wrong. People should not be supplanted by foreigners in their own homeland. They should not face cultural and economic displacement. If indigenous unemployed are given a chance, they will find work. But that proves problematic when those who already have a job are working for longer, and employers go for cheaper foreigners, often with a poor grasp of English.

This does not just put people out of a job; in some professions, a lack of English skills is deadly. The amount of doctors and nurses who cannot speak an acceptable level of English is astounding, and a serious threat to peoples' lives.

Foreign doctors work in England without speaking English

Overlooked, too, are the immigrants who send money home, siphoning cash from their host nation into their home country. I believe that is a form of parasitism. It hurts the balance of trade and the money supply.

edited 17th Jul '11 6:57:56 AM by Shichibukai

^ Welcome to a huge-ass argument against immigration in the US. That's the Number 1 import for Mexico: siphoned cash.

@Beholderess: You're not factoring globalization and delocalization here (can't find anyone here willing to work for this much? I'll go over there). On the national territory, the only ones affected by this are unskilled labour, since they are the only field where natives and the desperate immigrants work. Unless your education system and industrial automatization levels suck and you're stuck in Older Than Television world, that's a small minority. Admittedlyy, one not known for moderation or educated opinions...

^"Siphoned cash". You mean hard-earned money being given to family overseas? You wanna worry about cash siphonage, look at actual trade: it's not because of Chinese Immigrants that China has enough Dollars to buy and sell the USA three times.

edited 17th Jul '11 6:56:36 AM by GoodGuyGreg

@Beholderess: That sounds about right, but it might be balanced out by a potential employer who could afford to hire someone for 40, but not for 50, so the presence of immigrants would allow the creation of one more job (which would go to an immigrant, sure, but would also be slightly beneficial to society; also, taxes!).

Yup, preventing immigrants from stealing jobs may mean those jobs are delocalized instead, which is arguably worse (but not possible for all types of jobs).

edited 17th Jul '11 6:59:29 AM by SlightlyEvilDoctor

I'm of the opinion that immigrants to this country are no more likely to find work than someone who is born here. If anything, discrimination against immigrants is more likely because of how many people are willing to beleive that "Paki's aw stealin' wur joabs n'at".

Allowing industrial production to move abroad without replacing it, not creating more access to skill-improving education and major cuts that effect the people on the bottom are the source of mass unemployment, not people with different accents.

That means an immigrant is more likely to find a newly-created job than an indigenous Briton is. Sure, we can consider the reasons for this, but it's still something that I don't believe should happen.

Mass outsourcing to the third world is just as bad as mass immigration from the third world.

edited 17th Jul '11 7:08:23 AM by Shichibukai

People have the right to seek a better living for their families. Wherever they are.

Its this sort of insular, selfish thinking I hate. I consider it a form of cowardice.

... if you'd care to read a little bit more of that article...

Yes, foreign people are to blame for this. You're not scapegoating at all...

edited 17th Jul '11 7:12:52 AM by TheBatPencil

I see. Thank you for explanation

People should be entitled to fair employment opportunities in their own homeland before foreigners are hired to fill the gaps. Employers have jumped the gun and not given Britons a fair chance to prove themselves. That is just an excuse to hire workers on cheaper and more flexible terms. The state and businesses have sadly failed British people.

Britons are not to blame for the economic woes facing their country. The closure of the blue-collar industries due to foreign competition devastated many indigenous British communities, and those suited for manual work found themselves unable to seek re-employment. Whole generations have had high unemployment rates due to cultural demoralisation, a failing education system, and competition from immigrants. The only cowardice I see here is that we have taken the easy way out and imported foreign labour instead of giving the indigenous population a fair chance at employment.

edited 17th Jul '11 7:24:12 AM by Shichibukai

Where is the violent revolution against this when you need it?

I know my American people do, just as much as you Britons do!!

edited 17th Jul '11 7:33:50 AM by S3

Hopefully it won't have to come to that. But if the government doesn't do more about immigration, there will be riots.

edited 17th Jul '11 7:38:42 AM by Shichibukai

I'm not afraid to say IT WILL COME TO THAT AND IT WILL HAPPPEN, and not just over this topic. Whether in Britain, America, or any country on its way to becoming Third World fodder becaue the gov't does not care about its people and wants to control them, rather than do their bidding, like gov't is supposed to do!!!!

Striking down illegal immigration and punishing those who do it, with death, if possible, IS WHAT IS ON THE MINDS OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, but not our gov't. Revolution must happen, for the people demand it and the gov't has failed to accept it.

They must side with us, or DIE for being against us - that is my stance on this issue and any others!

Game Chainsaw: does that mean every country has a moral duty to accept each and every person who wants to immigrate? How happy would you be if a magical Genie offered the opportunity of teleporting to your current town or city to all people in Somalia (a significant percentage of the population would probably accept).