Pre-existing term and Non-indicative name. (NEW CROWNER (Alt titles 12-29-12): Empty Levels

I sort of play D&D. "Empty Level" is a pre-existing term that refers to a class level where you get no special ability.

For example: Rogue 14 and Rogue 20 and Fighter-Every-Odd-Level-Except-One.

edited 3rd Jul '11 4:45:42 PM by SalFishFin

That definitely applies to D&D if the DM decides to only throw monsters of exactly appropriate challenge rating at you.

D&D Empty Levels do include stats. See that Fighter chart? With the save bonuses and extra BAB and whatnot on odd levels?

edited 4th Jul '11 3:02:42 PM by Shale

No, you see... The description seems to be more about "The game gets harder because you get level ups with no special abilities." The current title only implies half of that, which is why it's confusing.

Most of the time, when a game character gains levels they then go on to face challenges tougher that those that they faced before (something I assumed you knew when you said "I sort of play D&D").

Gaining a level that doesn't come with a corresponding increase in actual power leads to an increase in difficulty.

That is why people care about Empty Levels. That is what the preexisting term is complaining about.

The way we are using it here is 100% consistent with the origin and standard usage of the term.

Nope, that's not a concept tied to the original term in Tabletop Games. It's not even related. I know you're trying to shoehorn it into the name somehow, but it's a different trope all together and it's the only thing the article talks about.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

That is the only way I have ever heard the term used for as well. (For Video Games that is, never played D&D at all)

edited 4th Jul '11 7:30:21 PM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

On the contrary, that only applies to Dynamic Difficulty. Monsters in many games have fixed strength levels (either per species or per area), so any level-up bonus makes the player character stronger against them.

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.

I think the course of action here is obvious. The article Low-Level Advantage seems to cover the 'enemies benefit more than players as the players level up, making not leveling up beneficial. That trope would apply even if a player gets a gazillion points in everything when levelling up, as long as the enemies get two gazillion points.

The name of this trope (and the existing term described in the first post) describes reward-free levelups, regardless of their impact on the enemies. We just rewrite this trope to fit the title, bomb the examples that don't fit and call it a day.

Any objections?

edited 5th Jul '11 2:47:24 AM by ArtisticPlatypus

This implies, quite correctly, that my mind is dark and damp and full of tiny translucent fish.

Frankly, no. The current trope basically describes the situation that makes low level an advantage.

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.

I object. Empty Levels is pretty well established on the wiki to mean what it means now (any situation where gaining levels is of no benefit or even detrimental) and you'd have to do more than just remove examples to change it. I can't speak for it's pre-existing usage, since I was never particularly into tabletop games, and I don't think Low Level Advantage really quite covers the aspects of the trope you're trying to excise.

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding the distinction that's being made here?

I think the trope as it is covers both the original tabletop meaning and Low-Level Advantage. In short, it's a mess.

Look at the first two paragraphs:

This sounds like the tabletop definition.

This sounds like Low-Level Advantage. Emphasis mine; that could even be the laconic for LLA.

edited 5th Jul '11 3:21:04 AM by Catalogue

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.

Which applies to the example I added to Empty Levels? Specifically how in some mmos (particularly the Koreans ones) where gear is more important than stats, levels between gear changes tend to be problematic since you have to move on to stronger enemies without actually getting much stronger?

Also, to make sure I'm undertanding the goal here, we're suggesting the Empty Levels be "levels that provide little/no benefit, irrespective of the power of the enemies being faced", and Low-Level Advantage being "any situation where avoiding gaining levels is beneficial"?

Yeah, that sums up my opinion, at least.

This implies, quite correctly, that my mind is dark and damp and full of tiny translucent fish.

Agreed with those definitions. They can overlap, but I think Empty Levels as it is covers slightly more than defined outside this site, where it takes up the space of LLA.

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.

Okay, when put that way I think I can see where you're coming from and wouldn't be opposed. It's just that it's hard to shift the definition of a trope once it's been established and spread around the wiki, since not everyone will read these discussions and will keep using it the wrong way, not even knowing other tropes that cover it exist. Certainly, I didn't know about Low-Level Advantage until it was brought up here.

If it's not already, I'd recommend including the usual "compare/contrast" tidbits to the descriptions so people reading one trope will be aware of the other. That can help stave off misuse, at least to some extent.

edited 5th Jul '11 4:36:50 AM by Errick

That they really can. It's not that hard to disambig though and I can keep a watch of it.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Bumping this. So my understanding of the name has always been "a rather pitiful gain in stats when you level up", like if the random number god screwed you over.

The sad, REAL American dichotomy

"Empty level" is a pre-existing term in the tabletop community referring to levels where you don't gain new special abilities. Your basics stats may still increase, but the abilities specific to your Character Class do not. It looks like this article was never changed after the original discussion in this thread, so we definitely need to make changes to distinguish Empty Levels from Low-Level Advantage.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Agreed - the current article looks like it's an effective duplicate of Low-Level Advantage. While there can be overlap (particularly in games with some amount of Dynamic Difficulty), I think cleaning this up to be about the pre-existing tabletop gaming term would be for the best.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.

Okay, to be more specific about what I meant:

In the first Shining Force (which I think I'll split soon into a series page and specific games page), Attack, Defence, HP, MP, Speed, and evasiveness could (random number god) all be increased when you level up. Magicians, being the only ones with specialized skills, learn some additional spells on preset levels. A great level up would generally be a total of about +6 points across the set. An "empty" level in the game would be a total of +0 or +1.

edited 1st Sep '11 10:39:04 AM by wanderlustwarrior

The sad, REAL American dichotomy