TV Tropes Org

Forums

Deadlock Clock: 19th Nov '13 11:59 PM
search forum titles
google site search
Total posts: [117]
1
 2  3  4 5

Pre-existing term and Non-indicative name. (NEW CROWNER (Alt titles 12-29-12): Empty Levels get usage counts

Trolling Swordsman
I sort of play D&D. "Empty Level" is a pre-existing term that refers to a class level where you get no special ability.

For example: Rogue 14 and Rogue 20 and Fighter-Every-Odd-Level-Except-One.

edited 3rd Jul '11 4:45:42 PM by SalFishFin

 2 Zyffyr, Mon, 4th Jul '11 2:40:08 PM Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, she is imaginary

Thumped for switching the discussion from the topic to a person. Doesn't take many of this kind of thump to bring a suspension. Stay on the topic, not the people in the discussion.

Trolling Swordsman

Thumped for switching the discussion from the topic to a person. Doesn't take many of this kind of thump to bring a suspension. Stay on the topic, not the people in the discussion.

 4 Clarste, Mon, 4th Jul '11 3:00:58 PM Relationship Status: Non-Canon
Three Steps
That definitely applies to D&D if the DM decides to only throw monsters of exactly appropriate challenge rating at you.

 5 Shale, Mon, 4th Jul '11 3:02:10 PM from Int'l House of Mojo Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Mighty pirate!
D&D Empty Levels do include stats. See that Fighter chart? With the save bonuses and extra BAB and whatnot on odd levels?

edited 4th Jul '11 3:02:42 PM by Shale

 6 Zyffyr, Mon, 4th Jul '11 3:45:44 PM Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, she is imaginary

Thumped for switching the discussion from the topic to a person. Doesn't take many of this kind of thump to bring a suspension. Stay on the topic, not the people in the discussion.

Trolling Swordsman
No, you see... The description seems to be more about "The game gets harder because you get level ups with no special abilities." The current title only implies half of that, which is why it's confusing.

 8 Zyffyr, Mon, 4th Jul '11 6:45:08 PM Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, she is imaginary
Most of the time, when a game character gains levels they then go on to face challenges tougher that those that they faced before (something I assumed you knew when you said "I sort of play D&D").

Gaining a level that doesn't come with a corresponding increase in actual power leads to an increase in difficulty.

That is why people care about Empty Levels. That is what the preexisting term is complaining about.

The way we are using it here is 100% consistent with the origin and standard usage of the term.

 9 shimaspawn, Mon, 4th Jul '11 7:17:21 PM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
[up] Nope, that's not a concept tied to the original term in Tabletop Games. It's not even related. I know you're trying to shoehorn it into the name somehow, but it's a different trope all together and it's the only thing the article talks about.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
Cure Candy
[up][up] That is the only way I have ever heard the term used for as well. (For Video Games that is, never played D&D at all)

edited 4th Jul '11 7:30:21 PM by Raso

Dragon Writer
Gaining a level that doesn't come with a corresponding increase in actual power leads to an increase in difficulty.
On the contrary, that only applies to Dynamic Difficulty. Monsters in many games have fixed strength levels (either per species or per area), so any level-up bonus makes the player character stronger against them.
 12 Artistic Platypus, Tue, 5th Jul '11 2:47:16 AM from the ritz to the rubble
The Gentleman Geek
I think the course of action here is obvious. The article Low-Level Advantage seems to cover the 'enemies benefit more than players as the players level up, making not leveling up beneficial. That trope would apply even if a player gets a gazillion points in everything when levelling up, as long as the enemies get two gazillion points.

The name of this trope (and the existing term described in the first post) describes reward-free levelups, regardless of their impact on the enemies. We just rewrite this trope to fit the title, bomb the examples that don't fit and call it a day.

Any objections?

edited 5th Jul '11 2:47:24 AM by ArtisticPlatypus

If this is your 'Not see a monster made of babies'-day, don't visit my blog.
 13 Catalogue, Tue, 5th Jul '11 3:14:31 AM from where the good times are
A pocketful of saudade.
Frankly, no. The current trope basically describes the situation that makes low level an advantage.
The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.
 14 Errick, Tue, 5th Jul '11 3:15:57 AM from Warshington
1TS4 FOX13 :y
I object. Empty Levels is pretty well established on the wiki to mean what it means now (any situation where gaining levels is of no benefit or even detrimental) and you'd have to do more than just remove examples to change it. I can't speak for it's pre-existing usage, since I was never particularly into tabletop games, and I don't think Low Level Advantage really quite covers the aspects of the trope you're trying to excise.

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding the distinction that's being made here?

 15 Catalogue, Tue, 5th Jul '11 3:19:55 AM from where the good times are
A pocketful of saudade.
I think the trope as it is covers both the original tabletop meaning and Low-Level Advantage. In short, it's a mess.

Look at the first two paragraphs:

While characters generally gain in power absolutely as they gain levels, sometimes the rewards for gaining a level just aren't all that hot. You might end up just gaining a few Hit Points for that level. But hey, at least it's something, right?

This sounds like the tabletop definition.

But wait, why did the game start throwing all of these Goddamned Bats at me? I was doing just fine against The Goombas! Why is it that the game gets easier when I do Low Level Runs than playing the game how I'm supposed to?!

This sounds like Low-Level Advantage. Emphasis mine; that could even be the laconic for LLA.

edited 5th Jul '11 3:21:04 AM by Catalogue

The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.
 16 Errick, Tue, 5th Jul '11 3:23:43 AM from Warshington
1TS4 FOX13 :y
Which applies to the example I added to Empty Levels? Specifically how in some mmos (particularly the Koreans ones) where gear is more important than stats, levels between gear changes tend to be problematic since you have to move on to stronger enemies without actually getting much stronger?

 17 Errick, Tue, 5th Jul '11 3:30:17 AM from Warshington
1TS4 FOX13 :y
Also, to make sure I'm undertanding the goal here, we're suggesting the Empty Levels be "levels that provide little/no benefit, irrespective of the power of the enemies being faced", and Low-Level Advantage being "any situation where avoiding gaining levels is beneficial"?

 18 Artistic Platypus, Tue, 5th Jul '11 4:22:25 AM from the ritz to the rubble
The Gentleman Geek
[up]Yeah, that sums up my opinion, at least.
If this is your 'Not see a monster made of babies'-day, don't visit my blog.
 19 Catalogue, Tue, 5th Jul '11 4:31:19 AM from where the good times are
A pocketful of saudade.
Agreed with those definitions. They can overlap, but I think Empty Levels as it is covers slightly more than defined outside this site, where it takes up the space of LLA.
The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.
 20 Errick, Tue, 5th Jul '11 4:34:51 AM from Warshington
1TS4 FOX13 :y
Okay, when put that way I think I can see where you're coming from and wouldn't be opposed. It's just that it's hard to shift the definition of a trope once it's been established and spread around the wiki, since not everyone will read these discussions and will keep using it the wrong way, not even knowing other tropes that cover it exist. Certainly, I didn't know about Low-Level Advantage until it was brought up here.

If it's not already, I'd recommend including the usual "compare/contrast" tidbits to the descriptions so people reading one trope will be aware of the other. That can help stave off misuse, at least to some extent.

edited 5th Jul '11 4:36:50 AM by Errick

 21 shimaspawn, Tue, 5th Jul '11 4:50:18 AM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
That they really can. It's not that hard to disambig though and I can keep a watch of it.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
 22 wanderlustwarrior, Tue, 30th Aug '11 8:41:04 PM from Black Attack Squadron HQ Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Lord British Role Model All-Pope Leo I, HNIC
Bumping this. So my understanding of the name has always been "a rather pitiful gain in stats when you level up", like if the random number god screwed you over.
Any idiot knows Freud was a Star Trek fan and Star Wars invented The Hero, right?
 23 Native Jovian, Wed, 31st Aug '11 5:04:54 PM from Orlando, Florida
Io vs Jupiter
"Empty level" is a pre-existing term in the tabletop community referring to levels where you don't gain new special abilities. Your basics stats may still increase, but the abilities specific to your Character Class do not. It looks like this article was never changed after the original discussion in this thread, so we definitely need to make changes to distinguish Empty Levels from Low-Level Advantage.
 24 32 Footsteps, Thu, 1st Sep '11 7:55:25 AM from Just north of Arkham Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
The 11th Grover
Agreed - the current article looks like it's an effective duplicate of Low-Level Advantage. While there can be overlap (particularly in games with some amount of Dynamic Difficulty), I think cleaning this up to be about the pre-existing tabletop gaming term would be for the best.
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
 25 wanderlustwarrior, Thu, 1st Sep '11 10:37:46 AM from Black Attack Squadron HQ Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Lord British Role Model All-Pope Leo I, HNIC
Okay, to be more specific about what I meant:

In the first Shining Force (which I think I'll split soon into a series page and specific games page), Attack, Defence, HP, MP, Speed, and evasiveness could (random number god) all be increased when you level up. Magicians, being the only ones with specialized skills, learn some additional spells on preset levels. A great level up would generally be a total of about +6 points across the set. An "empty" level in the game would be a total of +0 or +1.

edited 1st Sep '11 10:39:04 AM by wanderlustwarrior

Any idiot knows Freud was a Star Trek fan and Star Wars invented The Hero, right?

Alternative Titles: Empty Levels
29th Dec '12 2:47:03 AM
Vote up names you like, vote down names you don't. Whether or not the name will actually be changed is determined with a different kind of Crowner (the Single Proposition crowner). This one just collects and ranks alternative names.
At issue:
Previous Crowner decided to split off "when you level up, the enemies level up faster than you do" off Empty Levels. This crowner is to decide the name of "when you level up, the enemies level up faster than you do".
Total posts: 117
1
 2  3  4 5


TV Tropes by TV Tropes Foundation, LLC is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License.
Permissions beyond the scope of this license may be available from thestaff@tvtropes.org.
Privacy Policy