European Politics Thread

Who wants to fork out the money?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Whoever does not want to pay a heavier price later having to deal with empowered psychos and racists.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

Even before that, nothing nowhere should be decided by unanimity. The liberum veto is right there in European History, and if they were trying to copy the security council, not all the members have veto power.

Look with century eyes... With our backs to the arch And the wreck of our kind We will stare straight ahead For the rest of our lives

To be fair, this is the first time Poland is in that kind of predicament (even if post-communism politics were always a mess). We got a taste of it in years 2005-07, but then PIS had loudmouthed coalition friends that brought it down in the re-election.

Now it's not only all PIS, but the loss of patience with the previous gov, the migrant crisis and now the EU embolden it. Whatever EU does, the far-right will twist it as an attack at Poland, Poles, Polish values. It's all a conspiracy from the rotten West, from "Brussels and Berlin", from Soros, from Total Opposition and their goon-figurehead Tusk.

Again, Bread and Circuses. The best way to stop it would be to cut the money flowing from EU to us, but it appears that nothing can be done as long as Hungary vetoes.

Funny you mention liberum veto, 'cause that's how Partitions of Poland started.

edited 22nd Dec '17 11:05:30 AM by FergardStratoavis

grah

... Can't the rest of the EU band together and agree that the Godzilla Threshold has indeed been reached, thus justifying the sane majority of the EU governments to flip off both Poland and Hungary and Take a Third Option by breaking their own rules to scrap the old law in favor of a new one lacking the unanimity clause?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

Uhm... that is, how shall I put... a course of action that would cause: a) further discord between member states; and b) an emboldenment of the Eurosceptic parties (especially the ones who want their countries to leave the EU).

Oh, and a load of wrangling (both in terms of legality and in terms of on-the-ground politics) that would cause the EU's institutions to lose some more credibility, both on an internal and on an external level. Something Putin would really like, in fact.

edited 22nd Dec '17 2:10:22 PM by Quag15

They would also have to eject Turkey as well, since Erdogan is doing much of the same. Losing all 3 countries, and leaving them in Putin's shadow is unacceptable for a number of reasons, not the least of which being Turkey's NATO status and strategic location. It would be an unmitigated disaster; the best bet right now is to keep all three corralled at arm's length and wait for more favorable conditions to press specific issues-if we get lucky, maybe some of these fascist wannabes lose enough support in the meantime to shift policy away from the precipice.

Also not only Hungary may veto Art. 7.2, I heard Romania's gov also tries to imitate Pi S and they may try to "help" us. Some people were even speculating Orban won't actually veto if EPP make some kind of deal with him.

Treaties, especially in a construct like the EU, are very much based on the trust we put in them. Breaking the rules for a good cause here might do irreparable damage to the EU structures in the long term.

Turkey is not a member of the EU.

edited 22nd Dec '17 3:28:31 PM by 3of4

"You can reply to this Message!"

They have been 'trying' to be part of the EU for a while, and their geographic location and position in NATO has meshed them significantly within the EU sphere-speaking of what to do with Hungary and Poland is part of the same conversation.

No it's not. Turkey doesn't have any voting rights, and they are not getting into the EU...well, ever, precisely because of all of this authoritarian bullshit (and also because they have a standing feud over Cyprus).

Anyway, the problem with expelling Poland and Hungary is that every other EU member (except the UK, who you can just ditch from the meeting at this point) would have to agree to renegotiate the Lisbon Treaty, Ireland would need to agree by referendum, and any such agreement would require you to get unanimous agreement from a meeting that you can't feed with two pizzas.

Turkey has a customs union with the EU, but it is not a member of the Schengen Area nor is it a member of the EU. It's a Candidate Country, and that's not the same thing as being an EU Member State. Poland and Hungary are Member States.

edited 22nd Dec '17 4:49:08 PM by Wyldchyld

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

Yeah Turkey isn’t an EU member, it’s a candidate country and not even a very good one at that.

The only legal way for the EU to change the rules would be to disband and instantly reform under the exact same rules but minus Hungary and Poland, and no that’s not possible, for reasons that I hope are obvious.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

https://ph.news.yahoo.com/vietnam-oil-exec-kidnapped-germany-face-trial-061405941.html

Something straight outta Mossad's MO. And it's making the Germans mad at the Vietnamese.

Under what conditions did Germany gave this guy asylum? For the looks of it he's not a political dissident so, unless the whole problem was that they would kill him, I don't get why they let him stay.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.

You cannot return a person to a country where there's a high chance of them facing death or having their basic human rights violated. Vietnam is one of those countries.

Of course, it gets more complicated between countries that extradition treaties and other political concerns.

edited 27th Dec '17 6:16:00 AM by TerminusEst

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele

There are also serious doubts if the person in question will receive a fair trial, since similar trials were highly political in nature. Germany has in the past extradited people to e.g. the USA if it received a guarantee that the death sentence would not be sought, but this is no option for countries that have a dubious track record when it comes to the rule of law.

To be honest, I wonder if kidnapping this guy was really worth the diplomatic fallout. Vietnam and Germany have to my knowledge developed rather close economic and diplomatic relations (with Vietnam being particular interested in anything that could back them up against China) and now - depending on how things turn out - we might see a serious setback. Even if Berlin has no interest in any diplomatic row, no country could simply ignore it when its' sovereignity has been violated like this.

We have to consider that this is also making a point that no one in Vietnam will evade justice, even if they leave the country.

I expect Iran to back Vietnam on this since they probably wanted to do this to the Shah when he fleed.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.

re: Eastern Europe and Marshall Aid-type situations.

I think people sometimes overestimate how much the Marshall Plan 'stabilized' a democratic Europe. Sure, there are cases like Greece where it very directly helped steer the country in a particular direction, but I think just as much is owed to the postwar generation of scholars, intellectuals and policymakers who were able to have a frank conversation about authoritarianism and the merits of democracy. A stable or large economy isn't a deterrent to populism - just look at Denmark and Sweden, where far-right parties have been gaining ground steadily since long before the recession.

Note that I'm not going to say that Poland et al. have somehow not been 'acclimatized' to democracy. That's a really reductive statement that's often thrown on the ex-Iron Curtain states.

edited 27th Dec '17 8:02:55 AM by math792d

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.

Sometimes I think we take democracy for granted and don’t really think on the conditions that allow it to function in the first place.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.

Eastern Europe is getting its own Marshall plan through the various EU projects. All those states are booming economically, the standard of living is steadily rising to a degree that a lot Poles and others who left for the west for better opportunities are now going home again. Honestly, those states are better off than they have been for generations, but it is mostly Poland (and Hungary) which seems to be ready to destroy what they achieved. And some of those states make great strides in the right direction on their own without the need to anyone explaining to them "democracy" or why it is important.

I think we above all take the peace for guaranteed. There is currently a generation raising its voice which didn't grew up with a grandparent telling them stories about the horrors of war.

edited 27th Dec '17 8:29:16 AM by Swanpride

"After the German aggression on Poland, Jewish situation in Poland did not look very bad."

These are the words of a "historian" decorated by the gov for his accomplishments to history. He insisted that the rest of his article too must be cited for the full picture.

So it goes as follows "[...] While they were burdened with heavy taxes, segregated into ghettos and (some more denigrations go here), they were allowed to make Judenrats (which are basically a Council of most esteemed members of a Jewish community)."

Neat. It's good to know that PIS continues its crusade of rewriting history through brownshirt sycophants like this man. (a professor at KUL; Catholic University of Lublin; the only private college with a status of university)

grah

It's funny, I hear the same thing from my elders here in Perú although with the addition that we also have forgotten that even liberty has its limits.

edited 27th Jan '18 7:35:47 AM by raziel365

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.

Local news stuff: The 17th Italian parliament has just been dissolved by state president Sergio Mattarella. There will be an election next March.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Was there any reason behind that?

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.