I feel a lot on this board aren't giving the canidates a chance

I know the GOP party isn't perfect but this smearing is getting insane to the point is just strawman mudslinging.I just say the democrats have a lot of flaws that people gloss over and repeatly ignore.I know this might sound like a long rant but it is getting obnoxious.I think their are actually good canidates for the 2012 presidentals but all hear from you guys are just demeaning arguments that don't help.I know some hate people who are very strong about their faith but some people with faith actually can be a comptent leader.Michelle Backman I have heard some nasty comments how she is shrill or even saying how they feel sorry about her children.And about the debt ceiling there will be a lot of long term consequences if we do raise it because for one we'll be leaving a large debt for generations to come.Yes,a lot of this is Bush's fault but the Obama administration hasn't made it better but probably even worse.Obama has acknowledge that while there were problems when he got in,he has made more problems as well over his term.

At this point I'd be happy to hear good ideas from either side. Democrats or republicans, the country seems to constantly be on the brink of disaster these days.

As an outside observer I would like to see the pros and cons of each. This is a very liberal group of people on here, so the GOP is sorta not well represented here.

I would vote Obama.

Michele Bachmann is nuts, and she's a fundie. Those of us who ain't fundies aren't too keen on damn fundies telling us what to do.

Believe it or not, some people resent the Moral Guardians and want to be left alone.

edited 27th Jun '11 11:44:00 AM by SavageHeathen

As someone who is more conservative than most of TV Tropes, I guess I'll weigh in.

I'm fed up. I'm fed up with the extremely poor conduct and hypocrisy of the Republican party, the fact that they have been hijacked by the Christian Right to the point of where non-Christians are not welcome, and the fact that they seem to keep playing chicken with the Democrats on vital issues where our nation is the collateral. Rather than ever compromise, they would just as soon be stubborn enough to let our nation fall off a cliff rather than back down.

That's why I won't be voting Republican again, not until I see a secular candidate who is willing to toss the party bickering aside and work for results rather than showmanship. Results have a showmanship quality all their own, and I'm tired of this grandstanding.

Not that I'll be voting Democrat happily either, I only vote for pro-gun or at least no anti-gun candidates.

edited 27th Jun '11 11:50:06 AM by Barkey

• You didn't explain why we should give them a chance, other than "you said mean things about Bachmann and Obama is also bad."
• Which ones are 1) sane (no Bachmann or Paul) and 2) electable (no Cain, Paul, or Pawlent) and 3) palatable to the party establishment? (no Romney)
• Which ones have a chance of beating Obama?
• Do any of them have any actual ideas on how to fix the economy? Because I haven't heard a single decent idea.

I gave Mitt Romney a chance.

Then he said that giving aid to the people of Joplin would be wrong.

Then I gave up on the republican party.

I'd like to see someone who acts like Mc Cain did before he jumped the shark in the last presidential election.

You can't get the nomination if you don't undergo the soul extraction ceremony. It's party law.

I think it's both parties that are doing it and you guys are not so different for your devoted cause to the Democrats.They always say that they are the party of the people but that alot of their policies are destructive and not well thought out.On the Republican side their are those who get too cozy with the top corporations and tend to be in favor of them.Yeah,there needs to be more third parties.But also remember that raising the debt ceiling will not just put all our troubles away,it will just have consequences that will come in later generations.Yes,the Republicans should be called on their self serving ways but so do Democrats who the media seems to favor.The way you are sound you make it seem its evil to be a devoted Christian.And the most insulting thing I guys get is that Christians are by default dumb which is very insulting.

The GOP has spent some considerable effort at expelling diversity from their party. They've spelled out their objectives and philosophy very explicitly, and you can't expect people who disagree with those beliefs to automatically go 'well, mayyyybe I don't really believe in this thing that's at the root of my belief system after all' every time an election shows up.

That's the price the Republicans play for their high level of party organization and obedience via conformity - they have a harder time getting swing voters. On the bright side, for them, it makes them much more effective at delivering a cohesive message at a very loud volume.

@Jazz: the problem a lot of us have with the republican party, isnt so much to do with hating conservative views. Hell, sometimes I agree with conservatives on a few issues (rare though they may be) the problem is, the Republican party is about as conservative as they are secular.

The entire republican party in its current form, cares far more about grandstanding on insignificant issues, or going on inane moral crusades to stir up popular support with the christian right or with less educated and well off voters to convince them that its in their best inteerests to vote against their own interests. And why? Mostly either to absolutely murder rights or just because they dont want the democrats winning ever.

And you can be a devoted christian and not be evil. The problem is the Christian right is a voting block of fundamentalist christians who truly do believe that anything left-leaning is the spawn of satan.

edited 27th Jun '11 12:00:15 PM by Midgetsnowman

At first I was like, "for Savage Heathen even Mahatma Gandhi would be fundie nuts", and then I was like, "so I guess proper writing and spellcheck is leftie", and then I was like, "why even I'm posting that, I'm not a Yank!". So I'd say, whom I'd vote were I a Yank, I am not sure. From my point of view I could vote both parties, but I don't know if it would be the same if I was better informed and more directly concerned.

Jazz, your arguments against the Democrats so far are simply, "but they're bad too." Or that they're "destructive." Those aren't actual arguments. Those are just words.

I mean, tell me why I should vote for the Republicans instead of claiming I slavishly worship a party I actually despise but am forced to support because it's the only port in a shit storm.

Also, criticizing Fundamentalist Christians doesn't mean someone hates Christians. Christianity is a very diverse set of believes, almost to the point of being multiple religions with similar terminology and symbols.

edited 27th Jun '11 12:08:03 PM by MatthewTheRaven

^ This. Normal christians I have no problem with. They can be awesome people and some of my closest friends are devout christians.

Fundamentalists, on the other hand, I consider the enemy of christianity, atheists, agnostics, other religions, humankind in general, and possibly the entire natural world,

I am not a Christian. I am pro-choice, pro gay-rights, and extremely adamant about the separation of church and state.

This means I can't vote for the Republican Party in good conscience. Those are all issues of religion that the party now uses as its flagship issues, and I disagree with them. It doesn't mean that Christians are evil, it means that the Republican Party supports initiatives that disregard the rights of non-Christians and try to push their views on others who do not want or need them.

I am a Conservative, but I'm a Secular Conservative, which is a concept that our nation does not seem to recognize. Until it does, they won't be getting my vote because they do not properly represent me. If a Christian tries to push their way of life on me then yes, I do consider them "evil". I only deal in Secular politics, all of the above issues are issues that you can only be against if you are religious, as they do not have a secular foundation to stand on.

So maybe the Repubs can fuck off with sucking the fundamentalist teat someday so I can vote for them, because I really want a fiscally conservative candidate I can vote for in good conscience.

Edit: PLEASE give me a reason why I should vote for a party that would restrict the rights of over 50 percent of our population through making abortion illegal, or restricting the right to marry from gays, an issue which would actually bring in tax income to the government if legalized federally. I'm being completely void of sarcasm when I say please give me a valid reason why I should vote for that.

edited 27th Jun '11 12:08:20 PM by Barkey

You know let's just stop this discussion because I feel I am going to get nasty and testy which I hate.Sorry but I feel like whenever I talk politics I just get all frustrated and I it put all on myself.:( It just that being surrounded with more liberal people who I disagree kinda made me annoyed.When you put it that way it just sounds petty.I don't know but I want to vote for a Christian canidate who shares my values but at the same time who is really trying to put an effort into finding ways to get this economy going.I know that there is some justifications at being mad at the Christian right and more extreme conservative groups but I want to say most Christian people don't want a theocracy because that is impossible to do.If there was a nice canidate of another religion I would have a good thought about voting for him/her.All I am saying maybe its for the best that we just end it right her and I am sorry for this all.

Anyone see anything other than the Golden Mean Fallacy (aka Argument to Moderation) at work here?

Because that's all I see.

Most people in the West share your basic values because most of the West was founded on relatively Christian values. It's ok to let religion guide your decisions(partially) as a politician. The legal problem is that being against gay marriage and abortion are issues that you can only legitimately disagree with on religious grounds, which is ok.

The problem is that trying to legally bar people from doing things based on a religious objection is a violation of the separation of church and state.

You want a candidate who represents you by being a Christian? I'm happy to just have a candidate who represents me better by simply not being a Christian. They don't have to be a Deist, I'll pretty much take anyone who isn't a scientologist or a fundamentalist at this point.

edited 27th Jun '11 12:15:58 PM by Barkey

There's nothing conservative about the Conservative Movement. It's about as simple as that.

People think there are very real problems in America. And until those candidates come up with good ideas to tackle those ideas, then quite frankly, a chance has already been given. And they failed it.

The statement that Christians don't want a theocracy because "it's impossible to do" made my skin crawl.

^^ That.

At best the Conservative movement is even more traditionally liberal (Ie, big government) than the liberals. The difference being the conservative movement wants bigger government in the areas of military spending, tax breaks and loopholes for corporations to abuse, and legislating a warped and heavily distorted version of christian morality into law as often as humanly possible.

edited 27th Jun '11 12:22:03 PM by Midgetsnowman

The solution is never to "give both parties a chance."

The solution is to decide that thinking critically and independently is better than following any party line.

@jazzflower: If you honestly think that Bachmann is a "Christian" candidate then you need to take another look at the Bible. Seriously. Here's a quick example: "Here are the policies of the king who will rule over you: He will conscript your sons and put them in his chariot forces and in his cavalry; they will run in front of his chariot. 8:12 He will appoint for himself leaders of thousands and leaders of fifties, 10 as well as those who plow his ground, reap his harvest, and make his weapons of war and his chariot equipment. 8:13 He will take your daughters to be ointment makers, cooks, and bakers. 8:14 He will take your best fields and vineyards and give them to his own servants. 8:15 He will demand a tenth of your seed and of the produce of your vineyards and give it to his administrators 11 and his servants. 8:16 He will take your male and female servants, as well as your best cattle and your donkeys, and assign them for his own use. 8:17 He will demand a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will be his servants. 8:18 In that day you will cry out because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, but the Lord won’t answer you in that day."

Why make a topic in the first place if you were going to get angry? I am sorry that people on this board disagree with your opinions, but that is unavoidable. Very few people are going to have exactly the same views as you, especially in the realm of politics. For this reason, you have to be open to new opinions and ideas. When you disagree with something you need to articulate exactly why you feel that way and find facts to support your statements.

Neither side is going to have all of the solutions but at the same time always taking the center can be just as wrong.

EDIT: Or something. I'm not completely focused at the moment, so I apologize if the above seems incomprehensible.

edited 27th Jun '11 12:26:40 PM by Pentadragon

This thread is gong nowhere. Locking now. I'll nuke it later tonight.