Nationalism and patriotism

generally, I see both as good ideas that generally get hijacked by idiots who think you cant possibly both love your country and be extremely critical of your own country.

Well when discussing Nation States in Philosophy we differentiated between nationalism and patriotism as; nationalism being pride in ones nationality and patriotism as pride in ones state. Probably overly simplistic I know. I'd say that I am quite nationalistic to an extent but not very patriotic.

As it is nationality is an incredibly complex thing as you can get a number of different nationalities in an area and obviously as with the Kurds not all of them have a country to call their own and there are way to many different nationalities for each of them to have their own country.

Where I stand on the issue is that though I try my best I can't help but feel a bit proud of my nationalities (English/Welsh). I'm not what you call militant but I do get annoyed if I hear ignorance or just plain rudeness said about Wales (and England but living in England I don't hear so much said against it, may find myself in the reverse position when I move to Wales later on in the year). I see little problem in being proud of the custom and traditions which you have a shared heritage with others. However as we see in Britain (and other countries of course) with the likes of the National Front and nowadays the BNP nationalism when on the side of militancy and to the extent when you push your nationality on others and look down on others because they don't share it that is when problems start to occur.

Though I have to say all this 'it's now a crime to be proud of being British' BS that is being spewed really rubs me the wrong way.

edited 24th Jun '11 12:44:12 PM by PiccoloNo92

Couldn't give a shit about either of them.

Enjoy the Inferno...

I'm a bit of a rootless cosmopolitan myself, so am not very inclined to nationalism/patriotism, but I don't think there's anything wrong with it (though there are stupid things like the aforementioned whining about "it's now a crime to be proud of being British"). Being attached to your country is normal and healthy.

Point that somewhere else, or I'll reengage the harmonic tachyon modulator.

I think that "nationalism" carries a different connotation in the context of an issue such as Scottish independence. In such a case, it's more about self-determination and reduced interference than the kind of extreme aversion to foreign ideas and individuals that you'd see in, for example, the British National Party.

As for nationalism in general, it's not a bad thing in and of itself. Indeed, if people are committed to their country and they're prepared to work hard to improve it, then there should be beneficial results. It's not without problems, though. For one thing, it can be very exclusionary if it's taken too far (for example, "If you are <quality x> you cannot be a real <nationality y>").

edited 24th Jun '11 2:15:23 PM by TheGloomer

Neither:

I'm not from an oppressed ethnic/national minority: No national independence to demand. Aside from cultural autonomy and self-determination, what's the point of nationalism, wanting to screw others over?

As for patriotism, I don't believe governments can be legitimate, so I'm not patriotic at all.

You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.

What Nationalism really means:

What meanings I tend to associate with it, that aren't necessarily part of the definition:

1. Focus on fixing their own country, don't care about other countries, will cooperate only if clearly in their country's interests.
2. Would fight for independence against an imperialist nation because "outside invaders don't belong here".
3. Opposed to any form of world government that has real power, at least over their own country (which is close to the "correct" definition).
4. Opposed to monarchy / nobility and to a lesser extent, communism (because of Chinese and Irish nationalism).

Incomplete article on patriotism

better definition

What meanings I tend to associate with it, that aren't necessarily part of the definition:

1. Believes that own country's traditions, culture, form of government, etc. are really better than others'.
2. Would fight for independence against an imperialist nation because "others can't be allowed to take our freedom".
3. Tendency to display national symbol imagery, etc. at the drop of the hat, wheras non - patriotic nationalists don't do this.
4. Willingness to serve in volunteer military forces, etc.

In that case, I'm definitely a nationalist, but not much of a patriot.

The sin of silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.

Both of them don't mean crap to me. I'm not responsible for the fact that I was born in America, so I don't feel any reason to be proud of it.

edited 24th Jun '11 3:17:18 PM by LilPaladinSuzy

Would you kindly click my dragons?

It's hard for me to be patriotic; I don't know if I'm meant to be British or Irish or neither or both.

Easy: is your last name Saxon or Celtic or Norman?

edited 24th Jun '11 4:07:55 PM by SoberIrishman

^ Fuck that, that would make me French.

Welcome To TV Tropes | How To Write An Example | Text-Formatting Rules | List Of Shows That Need Summary | TV Tropes Forum | Know The Staff

Well, that's one aspect of British culture that is embedded in you, Bobby.

I honestly have no idea what the root of my name is. It's a very bland, one-syllable word.

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.

I'm one half Polish and one half Taiwanese. As such, I have absolutely no sense of national or ethnic identity whatsoever. And you know what? I like it that way. It makes me able to judge national disputes far more objectively than a proper national, who would always be thinking of how his country could benefit, usually at the expense of others.

yey

^^ Heh. But that'd be English culture, I think. I am South English bordering on the stereotypical, I'm just not very patriotic about it.

Welcome To TV Tropes | How To Write An Example | Text-Formatting Rules | List Of Shows That Need Summary | TV Tropes Forum | Know The Staff

I have Scottish ancestry and an English surname.

Er, flip a coin?

the odds would favour you being a Protestant, a Unionist and someone who considers himself to be British.

Not that I'm assuming that's true, of course, but that's what most people would guess when they picture an Northern Irishman with an English and Scottish background.

edited 24th Jun '11 5:44:01 PM by TheBatPencil

And let us pray that come it may (As come it will for a' that)

You know they used to be rather embarrassed by their Scottish ancestry, some of them. I can remember some of the older folk would try and fake English accents and get Gaelic prefixes removed from their surnames. They've latched on to it good and proper now, though, for whatever reason.

Wastes of time. Nations are imaginary entities we bind in invisible walls called borders and directed by complicated sets of convention and bureaucracy we call governments. We can adjust the borders and fine tune the governments to work better for us, but the fact remains that the central concept around which they are built is still imaginary.

Nationalism is the degree to which you have framed your life around this fantasy, and patriotism is the degree to which you are proud of that framing.

Yes, I'm an anarchist, could you tell?

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.

I'd say I'm pretty patriotic. As evident by my enlistment in the Army.

I think both nationalism and patriotism can be good. But like with most good things, too much is never good.

Well, I go to a Protestant church, but I don't feel profoundly religious. As for the latter two, I'd say that I am a unionist, but I really don't have any ideological reason for it; I mean, a defining trait of modern unionism seems to be a very strong, often violent aversion to the idea of uniting Ireland, whereas the prospect doesn't really bother me that much. At the same time, I'm unaware of any reasons beyond ideological ones for Ireland to be united, and I don't see what the substantive benefit for Ireland would be if they suddenly found themselves with our frightful economy and ethno-religious tensions. I suppose there are sturdier grounds for me to think of myself as British. Most importantly, I can't speak a word of Gaelic.

—-

If I might say so, I think patriotism/nationalism has gone to far when "un-<x nationality>" becomes a valid political criticism. Maybe that's just me, though; I don't put too much stock in such positions because I don't think any one side has a monopoly on good ideas.

I'm not responsible for who my family is, but if my little sister won the Nobel Prize, say, I'd be very proud. I'm not arguing with you, I'm just showing how I see it.

I don't think that one matters too much, I can't either, and I'm an Irish Catholic from the Republic. Spent, what, fourteen years learning it and I still don't get it.

I didn't know there was so many people on here from Ireland/Northern Ireland. XD

I'm very proud of my country, I love being Irish. I think it's the best country in the world, but not seriously, if you know what I mean. I think for me, it's the best country, but I'd never get into arguments over it, and I know lots of Americans think their country's the best, and lots of Spanish think their country's the best. Like the way I think black hair is the best, just because I've got black hair. I don't literally think it's better than blonde hair, and I don't think I'm better than anyone else for having it. Does that make sense?

I wouldn't call myself patriotic though. That just has weird meanings for me, like people going around dressed in their country's flags and be way too crazy about their country. Like Stan Smith on American Dad, I guess, I don't know. I'm more neutrally 'patriotic' I think. And I do hate a lot of aspects about my country, but anyway.

I don't think any of that made sense, sorry.

Very good observation. I agree.

Funny, my family is Protestant and everyone but my father, grandmother and brother can speak Irish fluently. :P