Asexual Anxieties and Concerns

I think it's more complicated than that? I mean, I'm kind of the opposite of an expert, but it seems to me that there's a difference between being pressured into doing something you don't want, and agreeing to do something you have no real drive or liking for just because it makes your partner happy.

I mean, obviously if your partner is always nagging and guilt tripping and pressuring you, that's a different matter. But even if a person finds sex unappealing, they might want to do it of their own free will because they've decided that... they want to. Is that consent invalid just because they don't have a sex drive?

Be not afraid...

Partner A says to Partner B: "Okay, I love you and since you like sex so much and I don't mind either way, we'll have sex tonight and go bowling tomorrow night because I like that so much and you don't mind either way." (Healthy)

Partner C says to Partner D: "I love you, but I don't like sex and you don't like bowling, so you sleep wiht other people and I'll go bowling with other people, but we'll come back to each other for the things we share." (Healthy)

Partner E says to Partner F: "I love you, I don't want sex, you don't want bowling, but even though I'm really not okay with this I'm going to give in (even if you don't agree to come bowling because you don't like it) because you might not realise this but seeing you unahppy makes me feel guilty." (Not Healthy).

It's a whole messy set of various circumstances wherein some agreements might sound the same but be radically different in whether they're healthy or unhealthy. Some aces are completely indiffernet to sex and can willingly have it for emotional reasons - make the partner happy by choice - but that's because they're indiffernet to whether or not it happens (not that this potential willingness coincides with being an Indifferent Ace, because it doesn't). If you don't want it, you don't want it (and that doesn't coincide only with being a Repulsed Ace, aren't we a confusing lot).

...And all of this messy relationship negotiation vs pressure stuff makes me suddenly glad that I'm an Ace of Spades.

Thank you for the illustrations. (What's an Ace of Spades in this context? A subcategory of asexual?)

It's not invalid, but if you're going to cry and vomit and scrub yourself red in the shower afterwards, you're basically consenting to hurting yourself. If you hide this from your partner, you're not letting your partner know about something that's hurting you. And if your partner knows and wants sex anyway, they're willingly continuing in an act that is hurting you. Not much more to say about it than that, really.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.

Ace of Spades is a slang term used in the Asexual community for an Asexual Aromantic. The other, comparitive, term is Ace of Hearts: a Romantic Asexual. Only Romantic Asexuals wind up finding, looking for or wanting a romantic partner (whether they cuddle only or also occasionally copulate depends on whether the partner is sexual or asexual and what the specific Ace of Hearts wants).

The other major, important, distinction - which does not co-incide with whether or not one is romantic or aromanic - is whether an Ace is Repulsed or Indifferent. Indifferent Asexuals don't care about sex either way, neither like it nor dislike it, they're just not interested. Thus, if they are also romantic and in a relationship with a sexual, it is possible that they may agree to sex because it really doesn't bother them either way and this isn't necessarily traumatising.

The Repulsed Asexual is Exactly What It Says on the Tin. Rather than not caring about sex either way - viewing it as a complete non-factor, one might say, they find the thought and concept actively repulsive. Unfortunately, many people assume that repulsed Aces must be traumatised/have been abused/had a bad experience when, in all honesty, some people just naturally find sex disgusting. Just like how some people naturally find shit disgusting and some think you'd have to be stupid and insane to want to go skydiving.

Most Asexual Romantics (Ace of Hearts) tend to wind up finding other Ace partners, whereas an Ace of Spades wants neither sex nor romance, those Aces of Hearts who do wind up in relationships with seuxals are more likely to be indifferent than repulsed - it would most likely be a repulsed Ace who would feel the need to scrub themselves clean in the shower afterward, but because they are repulsed there is almost never a situation where there is an afterward.

The Partners A & B scenario - sex because you like it and I don't care either way, bowling because I like it and you don't care either way - is an example of how a healthy Indifferent Asexual Romantic & Sexual relationship can work. The Partners C & D scenario, on the other hand, could either be an Indifferent Asexual Romantic & Sexual pairing OR a Repulsed Asexual Romantic & Sexual pairing, both of which would be healthy as long as both partners agreed to this set up.

The scenario you describe in response to Loni Jay is only applicable to the Partners E & F scenario, which would only happen between an Indifferent Asexual Romantic and a Sexual, and then only in a seriously unhealthy relationship.

For further reference (because lots of people find this confusing when it first comes up) Sexual Orientation and Romantic Orientation are two very different things. Some people can be Aromantic but Heterosexual, Homosexual or Bisexual (or other-sexual, but I'm sticking with the triangle for ease right now) - these will seek out sex for enjoyment, but do not desire permanent partners and romance. Opposite to that you can have the Asexual Romantic, who wants a partner to cuddle/walk the dog with/go skydiving with/just generally share their life with but not sex (and, as above, for a very small minority thereof sex can be negotiable, like leaving the toilet seat up).

Both Sexual Orientation and Romantic Orientation are like triangles - two very separate triangles. Hetero, Homo and Ace make up the three points, with Bi between Hetero and Homo and Gray Aces, Demi, etc, between Ace and the other two points. This is both for sexuality and romantic orientation and where you sit on one triangle has no effect on where you are on the other triangle. Some Aces are Repulsed Biromantic Asexuals, for instance, meaning they might seek out a partner of either gender, but will not be sexually attracted to either gender and will find sex repulsive.

It's really very simple. [/sarcasm]

Okay so that last statement was a joke, but the rest was sincere and accurate (although I'm sure other aces could explain it better than me).

edited 27th Feb '14 3:34:24 PM by ThetaTumbleweed

I can't really blame anyone for finding sex gross.

It's all like "Imma gonna stick this thing I pee out of into this hole you bleed out of 'cause it'll feel good"

Or "I'm going to stick this thing I pee out of into this hole poo comes out of"

Or "Let's touch each other in the general area where pee and blood come out of"

"Oh you also can get diseases and/or pregnant."

edited 27th Feb '14 4:45:21 PM by ClipboardFox22

Angry queer dude. Ze/zer, they/them, or xe/xyr/xem pronouns.

Actually if you asked most repusled aces they'd tell you it's disgusting because it's uncomfortably intimate and moist. The words personal space bubble may come up.

Although the disgust certainly doesn't make it easy to walk down the street in cities where there are billboards and other advertisemetns all over the place which are hyper-sexualised and mostly nude.

Meh: background guff. <shrugs> You can tell that I'm a Hearts.

But, seriously: it gets annoying when people assume that I'm lying when I say that I'm asexual. A single, semi-attractive female chatting to a bloke must be on the pull! Noooooo: just talking, thanks. <_< It's as if asexuality is an "excuse" for why I won't drop my undies when asked to.

Or, I'm "hiding being gay". <_< Like, what? Since when can't you be heterosexual, but take-it-or-leave-it about the act of sex? You have to be hiding a big secret, or something — or be totally frigid. Of course.

When, there's a lot more to it than that. (I can have a libido, thanks: it just doesn't work quite the way other people consider "normal", though — the body never has co-opted my mind or anything... although alcohol may have upon occasion. )

edited 28th Feb '14 12:16:15 AM by Euodiachloris

Meh background stuff is an indifferent/repulsed difference, though, not a Spades/Hearts difference.

Personally I find the lying accusation less irritating than the "oh but you clearly don't know what you're talking about because I can't imagine not wanting sex" one. Did you know that there's actually a bingo card for Asexuals and what insulting comments we get?

No bets: "you just haven't had a proper orgasm" is on there.

How does the speaker know they've had a proper orgasm? Is there a rubric that forms a basis for comparison?

Wait, don't answer that question.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.

Ding ding ding ding ding! You have correctly identified the very first one on the card. Seriously.

edited 28th Feb '14 4:26:50 PM by ThetaTumbleweed

You know, I would have thought that being asexual wouldn't have any anxieties or concerns. It's primarily defined by having no anxieties or concerns. In the sense that you lack a desire, the incomplete fulfillment of which normally causes concern. Personally I'm very satisfied with myself.

Sorry for not supporting the community (there's a community? why?).

edited 2nd Mar '14 11:33:35 AM by Clarste

They do, it comes from people's reaction to others who have a lack of sexuality. Also sometimes they struggle with identity issues just like everybody else.

METAL GEAR!?

Yeah... Back in elementary school the other kids would have girlfriends at such young ages and I was off in the corner like "Hey! Pokemon is cool!" Then I spent my teenage years being self-conscious and worrying about "does [this girl] like me?" and "am I doing relationships wrong?" and all that. Now, in the past year-or-so (I'm coming up on 21), I stopped caring about romance, sex, and all that. Now I've realized I'm mildly asexual. Is that a thing? Is that normal?

Also, for the asexual writers out there: I've noticed that my female characters are more interesting and I'm running into less Romantic Plot Tumors. Is that normal?

edited 2nd Mar '14 12:45:39 PM by AwSamWeston

Award-winning screenwriter. Directed some movies. Trying to earn a Creator page. I do feedback here.

Actually, Clarste, asexuality (not-sexual, etymologically) is definied by does not experience sexual attraction. That's all. Anxieties and concerns are nowhere in the definition of asexuality. Asexuals, and Aromantics, suffer from more discrimination, sexualism, ostracism and dismissiveness of their existance, validity and emotional states than the larger - more well known - non-hertero-normative orientations. These issues cause self-esteem issues (there's only so many times you can be told you don't know what you're talking about or that you're broken before it starts eating away at your self-worth), anxiety, loneliness stemming from the ostracism and lack of understanding from the people around you, etc.

It is also worth noting that asexuals who haven't come out and those who have suffer from more sexual harassment than most people because narrow-minded sexuals with sexualist attitudes will regularly take "I'm not interested in sex" as a challenge. Worse still, because - unlike the existence of homosexuality - most people still refuse to acknowledge the existence of asexuality, the victims of the harassment and rape (and the hate crimes, if you have come out) are often dismissed or become the targets of victim blaming.

In this hyper-sexualised world where romance and fucking are idolised more than religious idols by most, asexuals and aromantics have their validity as people and the validity of their orientations routinely shredded in conversation, all fiction and social norms. People still make comments about Aces which get a free pass but would have had the whole world up in arms had they been aimed at gay or black people.

There are communities, including a coven here on TV Tropes if I recall correctly, because - just like everyone else - Aces like to know that they are not alone, that they are not "freaks", to share their experiences and make friends. Just like there are communities for gay people, transexuals, etc who are not there to look for sex but for people who understand. Just like there are communities - even here on TV Tropes - for everything from religious affiliations to tea drinkers. It's also why there is a place for Aces in QUILTBAG (Queer, Undecided, Intersex, Lesbain, Trans, Bi, Ace and Gay) and the like. If you go to asexuality ...I think it's dot org but just search for Asexuality Visibility and Education Network ...you'll learn a lot about what asexuality is and why dismissing it - or assuming asexuals have it easier - is not a good thing.

@Aw Sam Weston, have you considered:

Demisexual: Someone who can only experience sexual attraction after an emotional bond has been formed. This bond does not have to be romantic in nature.

Gray-asexual (gray-a) or gray-sexual: Someone who identifies with the area between asexuality and sexuality, for example because they experience sexual attraction very rarely, only under specific circumstances, or of an intensity so low that it's ignorable.

I have no idea about the making characters more interesting, but I think people with less romantic or sexual interest themselves are naturally inclined toward writing less Romantic Plot Tumours because it doesn't rank as important enough for them to register on the list of things the plot needs.

edited 2nd Mar '14 2:27:44 PM by ThetaTumbleweed

@Theta: Yeah, Grey-asexual sounds more accurate. Thanks.

And, as for the "interesting characters" part, I was thinking more about "female characters who act independently and don't just exist in relation to the (male) protagonist." I've also created more female protagonists in the last 6-9 months.

edited 2nd Mar '14 3:07:17 PM by AwSamWeston

Award-winning screenwriter. Directed some movies. Trying to earn a Creator page. I do feedback here.

For the record, I would consider myself asexual ("Ace of Spades", according to your classification.)

Apparently you weren't listening because I explained my reasoning. Anxieties are caused by unfulfilled desires. Having less desires means there's less to by anxious about. Now, maybe you have terrible friends or something who constantly bug you about your sexuality, but I can say that in 28 years of life I have simply never talked about it. Because talking about not wanting to have sex seems like the most boring conversation ever.

I'll admit that there can be peripheral issues, like people in relationships who are coerced into sex by their significant others. This is a form of rape. But the problem there is rape, not asexuality. I feel like you are assigning blame to the wrong person. There's no need to "come to terms with" your asexuality because there's nothing there. It's the lack of a thing. There is a need to make rape not an option in relationships.

People bugging you about your (lack of) sex life? Just politely change the topic away from your sex life. Because if anyone has any politeness whatsoever they'll accept that. Most people don't talk about that anyway? Not feeling like a freak? Look it up on wikipedia. Oh hey, it's a thing that exists. Some people have little to no sex drive. Cool. Problem solved.

I don't need a support group, and I have nothing in common with anyone else who doesn't want to have sex. Why would I want to talk to them? LGBT communities need to exist because the first three need to meet each other somehow and the last can share personal and legal advice on how and when to make their changes. Asexuals... don't really do anything. They are defined by not wanting to do something. I suppose if you were a homoromantic asexual you might want to closely follow same-sex marriage issues or something, but other than that you're not bothering people. Some people don't know that you exist as a classification. So what? How does that affect you?

edited 2nd Mar '14 9:12:31 PM by Clarste

I think Clarste just won this thread.

No, really; how Clarste feels about asexuality is exactly how I feel about my sexuality. Expressed as follows: "This is a part of me. Deal with it. Oh, you don't like it? I guess you don't belong in my space. Wow, you still have a problem? I guess that's your problem then. Good luck with that."

Seriously Clarste, well played. -Raises a glass-

If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~

While it would a wonderful if everyone was capable of not being hurt by discrimination and dismissive responses, if you examine personalty type theories you will that half the world's population - whose personality types are complety valid and do not need improvement - do not feel as you, Clarste and drunkscriblerian feel. As a result, your advice is only valid in theory and if people do not speak up - no matter how boring talking about not wanting sex may be - this destructive, and vast, soicial promblem will remain.

If you two have never faced discrimination and hurt and can put it aside that easily, you are extra-ordinarily lucky, however as the vast majority of previous posts on this thread - which I presume you read - are devoted to the anxieties caused by discrimination and difficulty coming out. Thus your reasoning, which I did listen to, that anxieities are caused by unfulfilled desires is irrelavent. The problem comes - and the anxieties come - because most people do not say "Oh that exists? Cool, but irrelevant", but rather dismiss asexuals as broken and abnormal. Most asexuals are struggling to show society that the do not need to be fixed and so those peripheral issues are very far from being peripheral. It is the same issue as the corrective rape and discrimination that was applied to lesbians and gays when homophobia was still publically acceptable. Moreover, the hurt is the same - if not worse - that I'm sure you would, even only briefly, feel if someone insulted your intelligence, perhaps by suggesting you hadn't listened to their arguements.

Further, as you - Clarste - openly admit that you have never talked about it, it is likely that you have not experienced the amount of ignorance and hate that can come from admitting to your own nature and existence. However, as the statistical evidence on all asexuality focused places of discussion shows, you are - in this case - the minoirity. If you don't need or want a support group, that's also fine - I don't usually talk to other Aces about it either, actually - but that doesn't mean it's fair to be dismissive of those who do have problems with social bias against them and to imply that there is nothing to come to terms with. In this hyper-sexualisted Romantic Plot Tumour filled society where sex is used to sell everything (except, perhaps, diapers and children's toys) it is important for Aces to come to terms with the fact that - no matter what society has been subliminally cramming down their throats (if you'll excuse the mixed metaphor) from the cradle - there is nothing wrong with them.

The aim and purpose of getting asexuality known to the public and talking about it, is to create that world - which you two have been lucky enough to sample - where asexuality is not discriminated against and it can be a non-issue. For now, however, other people having a problem with it is still being foricbly made into asexual people's problem.

Also, in the interest of not turning this thread into a a messy row, I am stepping out now since - although neither of could have known that - you implied that having been the victim of hate crime specifically because other people make their problem with it into my problem, and having had it dismissed as irrelevant by authorities who took a similar non-issue view as you have and thus decided it wasn't worth the bother to alert people that there was a would-be rapist on the loose, was something irrelevant that should simply have been brushed off as someone else's issue.

Not everyone has a heart of stone and being told by anyone - be it family pressuring you to be normal (to settle down with someone because they want you to be happy and how else can you possibly be happy) or authorities point blank blaming sexual assault on a victim because they were "abnormal" and must have been "asking for it" - hurts. It causes very valid anxeities and concerns.

I have to bow out now because it's too triggery for me and ever since you, unwittingly I know, used certain phrases I've been havign flashbacks and can feel phantom hands. I'm sorry.

Yeah, it's great that you don't have any problems caused by your sexuality. But just because you personally don't need this thread doesn't make it pointless or trivial; other people might need it. The fact that it has a couple of pages of discussion seems to suggest that yes, people want to talk about it.

edited 2nd Mar '14 11:10:45 PM by LoniJay

Be not afraid...

@DS: Yeah....no. Just cause you can stand the discrimination or don't see it doesn't mean it isn't real. Yeah I know you've probably faced discrimination but it isn't so simple when you lose your job because you have an alternate sexuality or any friends in the area distance themselves from you because of it. Even if something is not that severe it can still be serious.

People face stuff like that all the time and it isn't anywhere near as simple as "just ignore it". So no one has won the thread or anything.

edited 3rd Mar '14 7:02:14 AM by Wildcard

METAL GEAR!?

I don't think I won the thread. I think my post was written in anger based on the feeling that someone was telling me how I should feel about something. I also think I hurt someone and that makes me feel bad.

But I also don't think I'm wrong. I described these as "peripheral" issues. Maybe some people who are asexual are bullied. But they're not being bullied because they're asexual. They're getting bullied because they're different, and that's all the excuse a bully needs. If you weren't asexual they might bully you because you're fat, or because you're skinny, or because you're dumb, or because you're smart. "You don't like sex, ew." "You like sex, ew." Bullies don't care what the excuse is, because that's not what bullying is about. The problem is bullies. The problem was never you. It's a larger social problem that affects everyone, and is a discussion that everyone should be having, not a little subset of everyone.

It's the same with everything. If someone does something to you, that's a problem. It's a problem that society lets that happen. But it's not your problem, it's not unique to you, and you were not the cause of it. Your condition did not cause it. It could have happened to you anyway, because the problem is that another person thought it was okay to do that, to anyone. It is not your fault, and it cannot be your fault.

Unlike most other groups, asexuals don't want to do anything. They don't need legal protection to practice asexuality. They don't have to fight for the right to not get married. Perhaps they just want to be left alone. They want other people to stop doing things. And that's fine. I'm not going to reject that desire. But you are not the cause of other people's actions. You cannot control their behavior. Even if you somehow convinced them that asexuality was completely normal, they'd still be jerks because they were always jerks. They are cruel to you because they are jerks.

edited 3rd Mar '14 12:57:17 PM by Clarste

Says you: I'm an asexual, and I rather want those things, thanks. I'd like to not be discriminated against because I want to live my own way thanks to something inbuilt and which I can't change. (And, yes: there is discrimination against asexuals: it's not always as overt as some, but it's very much there.)

I don't want to be sidelined by others because I don't find their constant questions about why I haven't found a nice lad to settle down with already — you're almost forty! Don't you know how wrong that is? Etc., etc. <_< Or can't get a flat because singletons don't rate as important to house when they hit problems. Or why there is an inbuilt tax discrimination against those who do not do the marriage-thing or the common law partnership.

And, this from family, not just friends, associates or even just random people in my area or governmental departments. I'm sick of the pity party people automatically throw me when I put "single" on documents without their being a tick in "divorced" with a strong admixture of "thank God I'm not as pathetic as her — I found a guy/gal". <_< Some of us weren't looking and don't need the "pity" or the disdain — and, weren't looking for the party that got thrown.

edited 3rd Mar '14 1:54:15 PM by Euodiachloris

Well, in that case, nobody is ever discriminated against because of their sexuality. People aren't bullying you because you're gay, it's just an excuse and they'd find a reason to do it no matter what. Corrective rape for gay people isn't a specific problem either, it's just people being awful like they always are. You can't stop people from beating up gay people and trans people because you can't control other people's actions. Etcetera.

Be not afraid...

As with absolutely everything related to sexuality there is no single universal experience. Clarste has been fortunate that 1) they've come to terms with their asexuality and are comfortable with it, and 2) haven't run into anyone making a big deal about it who they couldn't shrug off. In that sense, they're completely right in applying what they said to themselves and therefore saying "I don't see it as a big deal, it doesn't cause me any anxiety, and I don't feel a need for a community to support me.". But that experience can't be extended accurately to apply to everyone else and trying to do so is equally completely wrong.

I'm somewhere in the demi-/grey area, and while to me, it's not a big deal, I have had the experience of someone telling me that I'm broken, that I must be in need of treatment to get my libido up where "it should be". But I don't feel a need for a community to support me, either. So Clarste's position kind of does and kind of doesn't fit me.

edited 3rd Mar '14 2:53:35 PM by Madrugada

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.