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First thing's first: KEEP. THIS. SHIT. CIVIL. If you can't talk about race without resorting to childish insults and rude generalizations or getting angry at people who don't see it your way, leave the thread.

With that said, I bring you to what can hopefully be the general thread about race.

First, a few starter questions.

  • How, if at all, do you feel your race affects your everyday life?
  • Do you believe that white people (or whatever the majority race in your area is) receive privileges simply because of the color of their skin. How much?
    • Do you believe minorities are discriminated against for the same reason? How much?
  • Do you believe that assimilation of cultures is better than people trying to keep their own?
  • Affirmative Action. Yea, Nay? Why or why not?

Also, a personal question from me.

  • Why (in my experience, not trying to generalize) do white people often try to insist that they aren't white? I can't count the number of times I've heard "I'm not white, I'm 1/4th English, 1/4th German, 1/4th Scandinavian 1/8th Cherokee, and 1/8th Russian," as though 4 of 5 of those things aren't considered "white" by the masses. Is it because you have pride for your ancestry, or an attempt to try and differentiate yourself from all those "other" white people? Or something else altogether?

edited 30th May '11 9:16:04 PM by Wulf

Khudzlin Since: Nov, 2013
#12151: Oct 25th 2016 at 5:25:53 AM

Skin bleaching is also a thing in Africa.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#12152: Oct 25th 2016 at 8:10:46 AM

One thing I've read is that America, while a country built on racism in several key ways, is at least somewhat accustomed to having conversations about race, especially these days. Whatever other problems might be going on, at least they're being talked about, what with movements like BLM bringing them to the forefront. That's at least a first step towards something being done.

Meanwhile where I live (Brazil) racism is still alive and well but is much more insidious for several reasons.

We never had stuff like Jim Crow laws or legally enforced segregation, which helps to give an illusion of equality, completely ignoring the fact that we were the last country in the world to ban slavery, we imported MORE slaves than North America and they were treated worse. At one point we also had a national eugenics program to "whiten" the nation by wooing poor europeans to immigrate to the country.

The elites invented an entire myth about Brazil being a "racial democracy", where people of all races came together into a melting pot and lived peacefully together creating a post-racial democracy. This mythology is taught as what it is instead of a fact, but it's so pernicious that most people don't realize they still believe it on some level. We're not a country accustomed to speaking about racial equality at all, many of the conversations I see about social justice in the anglosphere would be completely alien to many brazilians.

It is indeed true that we have a pretty significant mixed race population; I see people of varying skin tones and features when I go outside on the street every day, and I live in a state where 88% of the population is considered "white" (although I should mention that our definiton of "whiteness" as far as the census goesis not the same as the US's and has more to do with the color of your skin than your features. President Obama, for example, might have been registered as "white" here because he's comparatively light-skinned).

What I've found is that instead is that racism and white privilege are very much alive, but it very often manifests as colorism because of the amount of biracial and multiethnic people. Mixed race parents hope their kids are born light-skinned because it's considered more beautiful, tightly curled hair typical of african-americans is called "bad hair", lighter-skinned people are seen as less threatening and less likely to be racially profiled by law enforcement and have better paying jobs, etc. So essentially the same "whiteness = good" you'd see in the US, just often manifesting in a slightly different way because of our population's makeup.

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#12153: Oct 26th 2016 at 11:12:25 PM

Student union promotes Black History Month with Zayn Malik picture

A students’ union has been branded “a national embarrassment” by its members after using images of Zayn Malik and Sadiq Khan to promote Black History Month.

Students at Kent University complained that neither the former One Direction singer nor the mayor of London are black and neither has African or Caribbean heritage.

Social media posts released for the union’s Black History Month campaign, which featured Malik and Khan, were withdrawn on Tuesday night. Following a social media backlash, the student union president apologised for “not getting it right”.

The student union’s president, Rory Murray, said: “I want to apologise on behalf of Kent union to any individuals who were upset, uncomfortable or offended by the image shared.

“There was no intent for this to happen and I am very sorry to anybody who felt this way,” he said. “Whilst we made every effort to include black and minority ethnic students on the planning for the month, clearly, we haven’t got it right on this occasion.”

But students criticised what they called “an absolute non-apology” and a “national embarrassment”.

Benjamin Smith tweeted: “At this point Kent Union has become a national embarrassment. From what I’m seeing, this post doesn’t really cover the extent of the offence you’ve caused and comes across as a bit patronising.”

Devante Wallace added: “It’s not just about the image shared, it’s the fact you have the audacity to try and bundle all non-white culture into Black History Month as if were not important enough to be represented individually. It’s offensive to all ethnic groups.”

Micia Morgan said: “How did the students involved in this project even get into university if they can’t tell the difference between black and Asian people?”

Malik’s father is British Pakistani and his mother is of English and Irish descent. Khan’s parents migrated from Pakistan to Britain.

Other public figures chosen by Kent Union included Dame Kelly Holmes and Sir Trevor Mc Donald.

In a joint statement, Kent Union and the University of Kent said the campaign followed the National Union of Students’ position on Black History Month, which chose to “recognise and celebrate the immense contributions that people of African, Arab, Asian and Caribbean heritage make to humanity”.

They added: “In the planning stages Kent Union worked with students to develop a campaign that celebrated a range of ethnic cultures.

“However, we can see that many of our students disagree with the direction the campaign took and that a mistake was made.”

Methinks the NUS' position may be a little too wide-ranging. As You Know, "Asian" means something different in Britain when compared to the US.

edited 26th Oct '16 11:12:50 PM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#12154: Oct 27th 2016 at 12:19:05 AM

A bit, but the backlash is unjust and disproportionate.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from a handcart heading to Hell Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#12155: Oct 27th 2016 at 7:43:59 AM

I mean it is pretty insulting to tell non-black minorities that they don't deserve their own time of pride and instead should just be hangers on for the time of pride for black people.

I'll have to check but I'm pretty sure we've got at least days for celebrating other minority groups, but the SU couldn't be assed to do separate events for separate ethnicities and just lumped them all into one.

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
Sharysa Since: Jan, 2001
#12156: Oct 27th 2016 at 9:01:00 AM

Yeeeeeeeah, that's really damn insulting to EVERY non-white ethnicity.

I wonder if the UK's tendency for "Asian" to mean "SOUTH Asian (especially Indian)" has played a part in this nonsense. After all, South and Southeast Asians can get REALLY dark thanks to being in a tropical region of Asia. That can translate easily to Ambiguously Brown for people who aren't used to non-white ethnicities. Plus, I find a lot of people seem to mix up Indians and Arabs a LOT, and since black people AND Indians tend to have a large Muslim population, I can sort of see the mix-up.

If you squint and twist a couple of bits.

[up] America has an Asian-American history month.

edited 27th Oct '16 9:05:52 AM by Sharysa

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#12157: Oct 27th 2016 at 9:30:34 AM

Ever heard of those who are bigots while paradoxically not blaming other ethnicities/genders for their problems?

In other words they each have backwards views of skin color or identity/gender, but at the same time have a strong sense of individual responsibility for what happens to them.

RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#12158: Oct 27th 2016 at 11:00:11 AM

The backlash is not "unjust." It's incredibly insulting to just conflate every nonwhite ethnicity in the world into one big convenient heap. It's insulting to both black people and Asian people. To black people because its' trying to promote frickin' Black History Month using non-black people, and to Asian people because it's trying to bundle them together with a completely different ethnic group rather than granting them their own space.

And yeah, [up][up] I do wonder if the UK's different history with the word "Asian" has contributed to this fiasco.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#12159: Oct 27th 2016 at 11:37:26 AM

[up]It's funny how you despise the stigma of "otherness" applied to those who aren't white, yet the fact that "Black History Month" in a way reinforces that notion seems to escape you..

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#12160: Oct 27th 2016 at 11:40:59 AM

Wow, really? You're not really gonna take up that stance on Black History Month are you?

Oh really when?
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#12162: Oct 27th 2016 at 11:45:59 AM

Well, that was quite the swerve there.

Jail Time for Using South Africa’s Worst Racial Slur?

JOHANNESBURG — After thieves broke into her car, a white South African motorist lashed out at the responding black police officers. She called black people “plain and simple useless” before unleashing the most offensive racial slur around.

Not the N-word, but the K-word: kaffir.

The word is South Africa’s most charged epithet, a term historically used by whites to denigrate black people and considered so offensive that it is rarely said out loud or rendered fully in print.

Now because of her racist tirade, caught on video early this year, the driver of the car, Vicki Momberg, is on trial and will probably face a hefty fine. Because of her rant and several others like it, lawmakers in South Africa, where the wounds of apartheid remain raw, are moving to make hate speech a crime punishable by up to 10 years in prison.

This week, South Africa released a draft law that would criminalize racism by referring future hate speech cases to criminal courts instead of the civil courts where they are currently heard.

Continue reading the main story RELATED COVERAGE

LETTER FROM AFRICA Raw Tensions Over Race Fester in South Africa MARCH 1, 2016

Separating Free Speech From Hate in South Africa APRIL 30, 2011 “The recent racist utterances and many other incidents of vicious crimes perpetrated under the influence of racial hate, despite our efforts over the past two decades to build our new nation on these values, has necessitated further measures,” Justice Minister Michael Masutha said at a news conference on Monday.

The government’s move has ignited a fierce debate. Criminalizing hate speech, opponents say, would have a chilling effect on another hard-won victory: freedom of expression. Under the proposed law, hate speech would be broadly defined as direct or electronic communication that “advocates hatred,” incites violence or causes contempt or ridicule.

A first-time offender could be punished by up to three years in prison, and a repeat offender could face imprisonment of up to 10 years.

Beyond the stiff penalties, critics say, the proposed law would also distract from the real problems in South Africa, where blacks have political power but where economic power and cultural influence remain disproportionately in the hands of whites, who account for only 9 percent of the population.

“Race and racism should be understood as structural problems, problems of inequality, to be resolved through a program of justice and not criminalization,” said Joel Modiri, a lecturer in jurisprudence at the University of Pretoria. “Here you have a black-majority society that is essentially demanding protection from a white minority. It’s revealing the deeper problem that you have a majority in this country that is fundamentally powerless.”

By adopting such a law, South Africa would join Britain, Canada, France, Germany and other countries where hate speech is a crime.

But it would move further away from the United States, a country with which it shares a history of racism by whites against blacks. In the United States, the First Amendment protects almost all expression, no matter how offensive.

In February, Ms. Momberg was caught in Johannesburg verbally abusing the black officers.

The video, which spread across the internet in South Africa, shows Ms. Momberg, apparently angry at how long it took the police to respond, yelling that she did not want the assistance of a black officer. She said she wanted to be helped by an official who was white, Indian or mixed race.

“One kaffir is bad enough,” she said. “This happens all the time, all the time. The kaffirs here in Joburg are terrible. I’m so sick of it.” She is also heard calling black people “opinionated,” “arrogant” and “useless.” Later in the video, she says that if she sees a black person, “I will drive him over.”

“If I have a gun I will shoot everybody,” she adds.

The South African Human Rights Commission has said it will also take Ms. Momberg to the Equality Court, a body established in the post-apartheid era to deal with discrimination.

While South Africa’s post-apartheid Constitution guarantees freedom of expression, it excludes “advocacy of hatred that is based on race, ethnicity, gender or religion, and that constitutes incitement to cause harm.” An act passed in 2000 broadened the definition of hate speech to include expressions that are “hurtful” and “harmful” or that will “incite harm” or “promote or propagate hatred.”

Pierre de Vos, a constitutional scholar at the University of Cape Town, said the country was already “quite aggressive in targeting hate speech.”

“Given our history, the people who drafted our Constitution assumed that although freedom of expression is very important, hate speech cannot under any circumstance serve any valuable purpose,” he said.

Last month, a high court judge ordered a white man named Wayne Swanepoel to pay 100,000 rand, or about $7,000, for using the epithet against a black man during an argument. The judge said the word “cannot be heard without flinching.”

Critics say that too broadly defining hate speech will erode freedom of expression and do little to heal the country’s racial wounds.

“You cannot legislate for good human behavior; you cannot legislate for social cohesion,” said Tusi Fokane, the executive director of the Freedom of Expression Institute, a private organization. “Given our past, a lot more will be required than banning and criminalizing expressions.”

The difficulty in defining hate speech is evident in the differences between the Constitution and the 2000 act, experts said. Even the most explosive slur would be considered hate speech under the act, but would not automatically be labeled such under the Constitution.

The offensive word is derived from the Arabic word “kafir,” meaning nonbeliever or non-Muslim. Over the centuries in South Africa its usage changed, eventually becoming a racist term.

“The K-word here and the N-word in the States are essentially vehicles for expressing hate, a way of demeaning another person to make them less than what you are,” said Millard Arnold, 60, an American who has lived in South Africa for more than two decades and is a trustee of the Steve Biko Foundation, a community development organization. “In both societies, those two words resonate virtually the same way.”

If the offending South African word was widely used during apartheid, it is now taboo.

“While I was growing up, some books made reference to it, but it was always used in a historical context,” said Ramabina Mahapa, 24, a former president of the student council at the University of Cape Town, who grew up in a rural area. “Nobody has ever called me that.”

Last year, when the student council participated in a movement to remove a statue of the colonial-era businessman Cecil Rhodes from campus, Mr. Mahapa received racist emails calling him a monkey or baboon, but never this particular epithet, he said. That fact, to him, put the word in a different category.

Trevor Noah, the South African host of “The Daily Show,” tried to strip the word of its singular power in his 2012 stand-up show, “That’s Racist.” Like some black Americans who have tried to re-appropriate the N-word, Mr. Noah said he wanted to turn the South African equivalent into a positive term and even start a National Kaffir Day.

The attempt fizzled, an indication that South Africa was not ready for the word.

“I understood the attempt,” Kagiso Lediga, a prominent stand-up comedian, said in an interview. “It was well spirited, and it came from a good place, trying to make it into a good word. But leave it alone. That’s ground zero there in terms of words. That’s straight-up heavy radiation there.”

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#12163: Oct 27th 2016 at 12:24:58 PM

It's funny how you despise the stigma of "otherness" applied to those who aren't white, yet the fact that "Black History Month" in a way reinforces that notion seems to escape you.

It's funny how you can say that in public without a hint of irony. I'm not sure my glasses can take another Face Palm, so moving on.

[up] Such laws can easily be misused, but one point that stands out to me is that she didn't just use racial slurs - she expressed the intention of killing black people based on their race. That's not just dropping a slur, that's making threats.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
PhysicalStamina so i made a new avatar from Who's askin'? Since: Apr, 2012 Relationship Status: It's so nice to be turned on again
so i made a new avatar
#12165: Oct 27th 2016 at 12:31:16 PM

It's funny how you despise the stigma of "otherness" applied to those who aren't white, yet the fact that "Black History Month" in a way reinforces that notion seems to escape you..

Considering how white-centric America is in regards to history (and a lot of things, but history is the focus here), I think we can have one month to ourselves, yeah?

It's baffling and astonishing how white people can celebrate their culture any time they want, but when try to celebrate and empower ourselves and our culture, they take it as a personal insult. BLM, Luke Cage, Black History Month, any time we show anything resembling pride in ourselves, y'all get indignant.

edited 27th Oct '16 12:40:03 PM by PhysicalStamina

To pity someone is to tell them "I feel bad about being better than you."
RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#12166: Oct 27th 2016 at 12:32:22 PM

[up][up] It's the only one that wouldn't be a waste of my time, so thank you.

[up] You'd think, but apparently not.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#12167: Oct 27th 2016 at 12:34:03 PM

About "kaffir": Is this the first time you've learned that other Englishes have differences? Also, the start of the demonisation of the word was ages ago: it wasn't strictly proper to call luckybean trees "kaffirbooms" even in the 80s — I know because one Nicolas Kraus got detention for that, once (well, that and other stupid stuff he included in that piece of homework). However, I hate "coral tree". It's a stupid name to call luckybean trees. tongue

Next time you pick kaffir lime leaves up, have a think.

Words to look up: naartjie, boef and cuiter. Apply to Trump. Along with "aap", come to think about it. And, yes: included in South African English slang. Along with a host of stuff you wouldn't get. Including a lot of racial slurs from several sources.

Point to note: "kaffir" comes from the Arabic. So, it's basically a slur that comes from the Cape Malay community and/or the Portuguese various Goas and the VOC days . About 300-ish years old and given a racial rather than religious spin, in short. And, it was never mild. A lot of people used it as if it were mild, but it wasn't. Think of the liberal use of "fuck" — doesn't make it mild.

edited 27th Oct '16 12:39:29 PM by Euodiachloris

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#12168: Oct 27th 2016 at 12:38:34 PM

Considering how white-centric America is in regards to history (and a lot of things, but history is the focus here), I think we can have one month to ourselves, yeah?
That's fine. I can understand the need to feel some form of solidarity with others. But it does still contribute to the idea of "otherness" being acceptable.

edited 27th Oct '16 12:40:01 PM by nervmeister

PhysicalStamina so i made a new avatar from Who's askin'? Since: Apr, 2012 Relationship Status: It's so nice to be turned on again
so i made a new avatar
#12169: Oct 27th 2016 at 12:43:48 PM

But it does still contribute to the idea of "otherness" being acceptable.

I don't think you fully understand what "otherness" means. It's not used for empowerment. It's used to paint a group of people as outsiders. "You don't fit in, you don't belong here, this place isn't for you." Which is not what Black History Month is about. Black History Month is about saying "We're here, we do belong, and look at what we've done."

edited 27th Oct '16 12:43:58 PM by PhysicalStamina

To pity someone is to tell them "I feel bad about being better than you."
RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#12170: Oct 27th 2016 at 12:45:14 PM

Exactly. Self-empowerment and focusing your efforts on your own community - and celebrating the achievements of said community - is not "othering." Anyone who claims it is has a woefully lacking understanding of both the concept of othering and modern racial issues in general.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#12171: Oct 27th 2016 at 12:56:52 PM

[up][up],[up][awesome] Much better put than I coulda done.

Oh really when?
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#12172: Oct 27th 2016 at 12:58:03 PM

Should there be a Nonwhite History Month? And by that I do not mean one month non-stop of Hamilton and other historical reconstitution of White History with non-POC's.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
RBluefish Since: Nov, 2013
#12173: Oct 27th 2016 at 1:09:05 PM

[up][up] Why, thank you.

[up] That would be most history. As people have been saying, I don't think it would do any good to roll every single nonwhite demographic into one huge monolith (which would also have the effect of concentrating them all into a single small space). "Not white" is not a community, or a culture.

"We'll take the next chance, and the next, until we win, or the chances are spent."
nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#12174: Oct 27th 2016 at 1:13:25 PM

don't think you fully understand what "otherness" means. It's not used for empowerment. It's used to paint a group of people as outsiders. "You don't fit in, you don't belong here, this place isn't for you." Which is not what Black History Month is about. Black History Month is about saying "We're here, we do belong, and look at what we've done."
It still sends a non-verbal message to observers that black people are this collective that stands apart from those who aren't black, whether intended or not.

Kostya from Everywhere Since: Apr, 2011 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#12175: Oct 27th 2016 at 1:16:38 PM

Races are treated different. That much is a fact. Ignoring it is silly but that doesn't mean we should define them solely by their blackness.


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