Race- Privilege, Relations, Racism, etc.

The Purge: Anarchy was a lot better at bringing out the message. Probably because they didn't try to mix the message with a stupid horror-thriller. Also, they had The Punisher in Anarchy.

Of course, don't you know anything about ALCHEMY?!- Twin clones of Ivan the Great

I haven't seen that one yet, but I have heard better things of it.

Sometimes you have to make the more commercial one to get the money and approval to make the original one. Apparently that's what I heard of kept happening with this one.

On a related note, I watched Paranormal Activity: Marked Ones recently.

Now I have seen Paranormal Activity 1-3, not the fourth one. And I've seen Insidious 1 and 2. So with that in mind I was absolutely delighted that the Marked Ones featured a Hispanic family and neighborhood. First, they have some badass history with ghosts and magic that is just ripe for quality storytelling, and to quote Paul Mooney: "Why is it only white people see ghosts?"

White people aren't the only one with a mystical history. They deserve some awesome stories too.

But I have always respected the Paranormal Activity series because I found it at least tried to be a little more intelligent than others and with this latest installment, they really tied it together nicely. The Latino cast was brilliantly cast, well developed, and fully capable; it was nicely done.

It was also good to see a Hispanic horror movie that left the Catholic Church out of it and instead relied on native traditions and answers. I found that very refreshing.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

Thing is, a lot of hispanic tradition in the latin americas have a lot of inherited "culture" from Spain, tied to strong catholic roots. The two are inextricably linked. There is a bevy of stories that result in the mix of local, with cahtolic/spanish culture all around latin america.

Just to put a more "well known" example, there is "La Llorona", who is the host Bride or Yuki No Onna version of Latin American culture. So well known in these parts that when Legue of Legends opened their Latin American servers, they made a "La Llorona" skin for a character that fit her.

Plenty of ghosts here. But Hollywood makes movies for an audience that is not necesarily majorly hispanic or so.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes

My opinion of the Purge is that it's one of those movies that is ill-equipped to deal with its own message. What I mean by that is that The Purge is meant to be a horrifying "What-If" that looks into how and why class warfare could eventually justify any number of horrible things people do to each other.

The problem with this is that the people doing the most despicable acts are always an "Other". In the first film, they're deplorable and sociopathic yuppies (and the protagonists' neighbors). In the second film, they try to go for a more nuanced "Anyone could be a Purger!" message, but the main characters are still framed as opposed to it, even if for their own survival. The one person who plans to exploit it is only doing so out of revenge and only has one target. If your message is that "class exclusion makes people horrible", that message is weakened when your protagonists are somehow immune to this, like being "good" is in your nature (which defeats the point of the aesop). It lets the audience avoid self-reflection, because they see themselves as one of the good ones who'd know better.

This isn't even getting into other problems, such as "The Law" not being an on/off switch for social structures. What I mean by this is, the first movie frames The Purge as an "event" that happens and then is pretty much "over" and placed back in its own self-contained box until the next year. People don't work that way; "The Purge", even if it existed as an annual event, would be an ongoing presence all year round. Any state Law itself would utterly break down and become replaced by a social "Tribal" law because individuals would understand the only thing that protects their safety is their relationship with their friends and peers. Society would become ruled by in-groups.

edited 27th Oct '14 7:54:53 AM by KingZeal

They're not stuck together. Many Brujos or Brujas actively reject the Catholic Church as that the European influence was nothing but a damnation on their people, especially in parts of Mexico.

There is also a growing movement in American Latinos to reject the European culture and go as deep into the Native culture and history as possible. That's why I switch between Hispanic and Latino, some are offended by the term Hispanic, others aren't.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

It is a big thing fr latin american countries, this culture issue you mention, Gabrael.

You see, we have little culture of our own. The food, from Honduras to Panama, is basically unchanged. Chile and Argentina take pride in comparing themselves to european countries. Brazil is an immensely huge country with a well established culture. What do latin american countries have? A history of violence, poverty, poor achievements in history and being puppets to their larger cousin up north.

It is hard to pinpoint a "Latin American" culture. The cuisine. The dances. The architecture. The religion. They are colonial spanish. And the people? The people are a mix of black, native, and europeans. We here in latin america do the same as any other countries, segregating native people into secluded regions instead of incorporating them fully into our lives. To put an example, Costa Rica did not allow our natives to vote until like 1990.

Not everyone feels like they "belong" as the natives. If I asked anyone around me if they identified with the guaymies, or the borucas, or if I asked the chileans or argentinians if they identified with the araucanes or the mapuches, or if I asked uruguayans if they identified with the incas...? What do you think they would say?

Look at Venezuela. Chavez (and Simon Bolivar, for that matter) united the people under a banner of "la Gran Bolivia", which is to unite everyone under a same idea, a unique idea. Mexico tried the same with the "Imperio de Iturbide" and all failed miserably to create a true identity that shattered any preconceptions inherited from the Spaniards. The cultural identity of mexico is a lot more mixed (remember 90% of their population was exterminated by spaniard diseases).

Unlike England, or Russia, or Japan, or China, or Germany, or France, or Korea, Latin America has, at best, 200 years of history, where everything before or during the "Conquista" is shunned by a populace who cannot/does not want to identify with either...so it brings up the question. "What are we?". Easy to fall under the banner of chavismo, or Castro's communism to provide an identity beyond "Foils for the U.S" or "Banana Republic". We have not had the time to grow, so it begets a sort of "cultural identity crisis" which can drive people to shun, or accept terms like "hispanic" and "latino", as you describe.

Thing is, Gabrael, for better or for worse, we are, I am, a mixture of all that and it is intrinsecally linked to our culture. To reject what Europe gave us would also imply I would have to reject what the natives gave us, so mixed is our blood. And to cope with such a difficult concept is not something done from one generation to another. I couldn't tell you myself for sure what am I.

Thing is, if you, or they, or anyone can pinpoint me what exactly a latin american culture is that every latin american can identify with, then you are way, way, waaaaaaay ahead of me and I would very much welcome an answer.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes

Why do you have to reject the Native influence as well? If that's not throwing the baby out with the bathwater I don't know what is.

The thing is there are more sources and outlets for Native American cultures than people probably realize. I know most about Mexican revivalism as they are our neighbors, so I'll central on them more. But I'll try to post sources for more in depth research to other countries or ethnicity.

• They have their own languages.

If your language can survive, that means your stories, your oral traditions and histories have survived. As well as many of your rituals. Just because the Catholics killed many who practiced native festivals didn't mean that some didn't survive. The Catholics were very good about appropriating culture which they keep meticulous records over.

Yes, you can look in the Vatican archives and see "We started doing (this) at (this time) in part due to(this)."

You can research the hell out of the Irish conversions where the Catholics documented their adjustments. There are resources also available for their South and Central American conquests and changes. The thing is these are all done by vote or decree so there are always records of votes, arguments, and what not.

• They have their own faiths

Again, we have great research. And many people have undertaken the changes to research what the histories said and get back to their roots. Many continue to practice the old faiths in adapted forms, like most other native areas such as Indonesia where animism and Islam have a unique blend.

We also know more about the Aztecs then we ever have and much like the recent boom in classical Greek and Roman religion, the more we learn about an ancient people the greater the move for their decedents to adapt their faith to modern needs as much is legally possible.

• These people are still alive.

Just like you can find pure-blooded Native Americans in the United States, you can find them else-wise where they can trace their histories and lineage back even through colonialism. That's one of the few benefits of reservations and restricts on movements and functions, you keep a population together they can hold on to each other and keep breeding together, educating each other.

My friend spent about a year in Bolivia. She met a lot of these people and actually found a shoemaker who would make her things in their native style, not in the style of the tourists. He made her promise not to wear them, but she has a pair on her mantle with his thanks.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

I did not say we had to reject native influence. I said that if we reject native influence, then we should reject european influence as well, and we are left with nothing comparably. We are a mixture, like it or not.

Problem with using Mexico is that, as I said, their history of blood mixing is far more steeped than any other, starting from the "La Malinche" and beyond. Their religion is not as well documented as you purport it to be. In fact the interpretations of the significance of the pyramids and symbology is still very disputed, and it is indeed so lost that not even these still alive natives can tell us exactly what they were for.

That's like finding a hidden village somewhere in England full of celtic pagans and them being incapable of telling us what Stonehenge was for. Too much was lost.

And again, that is just Mexico (who has a 90% catholic population). What about Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Panama, Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, the Guyanas, etc etc? They don't have that. So much of the Mayas were lost as well as the Incas that the native population is fervently catholic? And again even if they are there that is the thing. The average person will look at this native and simply not identify with them.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes

Of course, they might be completely wrong, even if they are natives. Even Norse Myth was much changed by Christianity and see the rather unknown basis of King Arthur. Nobody knows for sure, especially historians.

Keep Rolling On

Okay, we are talking past each other.

1) You go back as far as you can. You try to keep as pure as you can. Some ethnicities we know a hell of a lot more than others. Again, the Vatican kept meticlious records. Priests were the first historians who wrote language and culture and sent it back. We also have accounts from nonCatholics. And yes, we can translate many of the vast ruins left to us so we can let the people speak for themselves.

And again, these people are still alive. Can they tell us about Spaniard time? No. But they have preserved a lot more than most peoples. Also, they allow genetic tracing so even the mixed breed mutt can figure out where they originated from. It's not that hard.

2) No one is saying anyone has to go back to native culture at all. But a growing number of youths in the United States and Mexico are rediscovering their heratige and are trying to get back to what they feel their roots are. That means rejecting the Catholic Church to a point or completely in general. They are doing this by choice. Therefore what they chose to reject or accept is fine to me. It is their culture to redefine. Not mine.

3) What are the other nations and ethnicities going to do? Whatever they want.

Seriously. It doesn't matter. If they're happy, cool. If they're not, let them do their own research and make their own decision.

All my point was that it was really nice to see a mainstream film that treated Latino religion with respect and as native to that specific family. No one was a stereotype, everyone was strong in quality, and that is a refreshing change from how many have depicted the Latino community, especially in horror films.

And considering not all Latinos are Catholic, that deserved some attention too.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

I'm not sure there is such a thing as "Latino Religion", since there are many sects and faiths in South America, especially amongst immigrants — for example, in Brazil, where there are even Afro-Brazilian syncretic religions, and Buddhism from immigrants from Japan.

It can't be put into a simple box. Mind you, even the labels "Latino" and "Hispanic" make me a little uneasy. The labels are too broad.

edited 27th Oct '14 10:23:12 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On

Dude, I study religion. And I agree with you. But considering my original statements were based off a movie that didn't give a specific ethnicity for the people or the religious tradition, I won't superimpose a name on them.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

Yes, I agree. Though not quite the same, the issue of regional, ethnic and national identity in Central and South America is tantamount to the socio-lexical debate about "black" versus "African American" or "Asian" versus "oriental". I've met pacific islanders who are fond of said term while others want to be identified by their specific lineage. Ditto for some American Indians/Native Americans, some of whom don't like the latter or the former. I've also met ethnic Jews who prefer "Jewish person" to "Jew". The shortening of the former term is a bit chilling and too blunt for some people.

Some social critics and sociolinguists have argued that "African American" is a cop-out term used to assuage white Americans of any guilt over what happened to blacks in the past. Others discard the term "black" because the color has numerous negative connotations in the West. And you have people who prefer to be called black because they feel that it should be re-appropriated to symbolize pride in the African diaspora. This was actually a major talking point for the early "black is beautiful" movement. I'm torn on the issue myself.

As for the Paranormal Activity movie, I generally appreciated because it was both a genuinely good movie on its own merits and it zeroed in on a particular minority group in the US without engaging in exploitation genre conventions. There are some ways they could have gone wrong with the movie, and it didn't please everyone. However, it strikes a healthy balance between placing the horror at the forefront of the story and flavoring it with Los Angeles Latino culture.

Contrast that with, say, that one horror movie (can't remember the name) with the black gangs who had to fight zombies. It wasn't racist per se, but you could tell the movie's premise was built almost entirely around the spectacle of seeing black gangbangers and other black citizens get into whacky urban antics with zombies in the background. It was similar to the problem with Resident Evil 5. The game didn't make me want to call the ACLU, but you could tell the developers just took a bunch of African stereotypes, threw in a dash of Black Hawk Down and tossed the whole thing into a blender without giving it much thought. The China segments of Resident Evil 6 are a bit more tasteful.

EDIT: Good point, Zeal.

edited 27th Oct '14 4:32:08 PM by Aprilla

Am I black enough? A look at how race is being treated in a new movie and sitcom.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw

Texas Latinos overwhelmingly support abortion and women's health rights.

Emphasis is mine.

The Latino population is the growing minority in America and often the ignored minority. I find this very interesting that this population is slowly but surely not only making their wishes known, but I think they will be a very interesting and crucial demographic in American culture and politics. I look forward to it myself.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

Reports: Some teammates think Seahawks QB Russell Wilson isn't black enough.

Charles Barkley weighed in on a report that the Seattle Seahawks’ locker room is divided because quarterback Russell Wilson isn’t “black enough,” saying that blacks are “brainwashed to think, if you’re not a thug or an idiot, you’re not black enough.”

Russel Wilson responds to reports.

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016

That's unexpected. I thought they generally weren't in favor of those things because of the high percentage of Catholics.

My thoughts are identical to Kostya's. But I suppose it takes al kinds. As much as I think it sometimes I know that Catholics aren't all homogenous or as conservative as we think. Hell, look at the awesome new Pope.

Interesting reads. Except the CBS one, for some reason I can't access that site.

I'm glad someone said it. Now if only the people that need to her it would listen.

Exactly! I have to look no further than this Job Corps campus I'm stuck at. these guys come from all sorts of walks of life but this general attitude is so pervasive it's like falling into a village of cultists Fine by me, I barely perceive them as human in turn. They sure don't act like people.

Well he's definitely not alone on that front.

I have had to say this exact thing word for word when asked about things that supposedly makes me "different"" or "better" or other such nonsense. Now I'm wondering if this is a conditioned response we've had to come up with to distance ourselves from troublemakers.

edited 31st Oct '14 6:38:23 AM by MousaThe14

The Blog The Art

At first glance, one could call Barkley a self-hating racist for saying what he said. But upon further analysis, that seems to not be the case. If anything, he's seems to be telling the truth about certain black people as he sees it.

Ta-Nehisi Coates with the rebuttal:

edited 2nd Nov '14 11:46:54 AM by Wicked223

You can't even write racist abuse in excrement on somebody's car without the politically correct brigade jumping down your throat!

"Irish alcoholism nature" reason for job rejection for Irish teacher in South Korea.

Katie Mulrennan has been teaching English in South Korea for two years already, but was rejected from a job, being told: "My client does not hire Irish people due to the alcoholism nature of your kind."

Schild und Schwert der Partei

Of course it was in a southeast Asian country. Why am I not surprised that that particular region would not hide that they would use cultural stereotypes as a reason to reject hiring someone and be explicit about it. I get the feeling I learned something somewhere that makes this not surprising to me.

The Blog The Art

I'd like to point out that South Korea banned a Psy song (pre-Gangnam Style) for containing allusions to alcohol. There's an element there that is ridiculously zero-tolerance when it comes to alcoholic beverages in general.

It's still racist as hell, but that's not the core reason why this happened.

edited 6th Nov '14 1:03:28 PM by TotemicHero

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)

Korea isn't southeast asian. East asian rather.

Southeast Asian is Laos, Thailand, Cambodia, Indonesia, Singapore, etc. If it's under China, it's Southeast Asia.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur