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Americans oppose raising debt ceiling:

 1 Acebrock, Sat, 14th May '11 10:00:47 PM from So-Cal Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Linky

Found this on another forum and didn't see this in the discussions.

Anyway, is taking a stand on the debt worth the possibility of economic collapse rivalling that of the Great Depression?

Also, am I overreacting with that comparison?

edited 14th May '11 10:01:14 PM by Acebrock

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence
 2 Linhasxoc, Sat, 14th May '11 10:08:11 PM from Land of Someone's Handicrafts I Took Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
Actually not a hacker
I'm no economist* , but from my understanding not allowing the debt ceiling to be raised would be one of the most catastrophically stupid things that Congress will have ever done.

That said, it's also my understanding that even having the debt ceiling in the first place is fairly stupid.

 3 Tuefel Hunden IV, Sat, 14th May '11 10:19:57 PM from Wandering. Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Watchmen of the Apocalypse
We can call guess which party wants to hold it there the most and cause a catastrophe so they can point fingers.

edited 14th May '11 10:20:07 PM by TuefelHundenIV

"Who watches the watchmen?"
 4 storyyeller, Sat, 14th May '11 10:30:28 PM from Appleloosa Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
More like giant cherries
Well that's depressing.
Life is simple: it has no nontrivial normal subgroups.
 5 Barkey, Sat, 14th May '11 10:45:42 PM from Bunker 051 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
War Profiteer
It's taking a stubborn and real world solution to a problem that you can't use a real world solution on.

Putting your foot down and confronting your problems works for lots of things, this ain't one.
The AR-15 is responsible for 95% of all deaths each year. The rest of the deaths are from obesity and drone strikes.
This is what happens when people are told, over and over again, that national debt works just like household debt, and nobody ever corrects them.
 
 7 Linhasxoc, Sat, 14th May '11 11:31:06 PM from Land of Someone's Handicrafts I Took Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
Actually not a hacker
[up]This. Quoted for truth.

This is what we call, a large quantity of the United States never having taken an economics course because those generally arent offered/semirequired outside the college level.

Therefore most people who barely understand how personal debt or banks work assume government debt works the same way somehow.

and yeah, speasking as someone who has taken courses in economics, not raising the debt ceiling means that we either have to massively gut programs and raises taxes, or else default on our loans.

edited 14th May '11 11:36:37 PM by Midgetsnowman

Going Forth!
 9 Barkey, Sat, 14th May '11 11:37:17 PM from Bunker 051 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
War Profiteer
I kind of want it to fall. If the Republicans let this happen by not agreeing to this, it'll at minimum cause the second great depression as well as fucking over tons of countries and organizations globally.

Huge price to pay, but I don't really see another option for having a shot at replacing our current system with one that is competent.
The AR-15 is responsible for 95% of all deaths each year. The rest of the deaths are from obesity and drone strikes.
 10 feotakahari, Sat, 14th May '11 11:38:18 PM from Looking out at the city
Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer
What exactly do we do about the debt if we don't raise the ceiling? Do we have any plan to deal with its growth? Can we make any plan to deal with its growth?
That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful
 11 Acebrock, Sat, 14th May '11 11:47:44 PM from So-Cal Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
^ We'll have to default, and that has the potential to bring down the world economy from what I understand. I'm no economist admittedly.

Also, here's what Geithner has to say. (In PDF format)
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence
about all we could do if we dont raise it is essentially raise taxes a fuckton to give us a way to both raise revenue and pay interest on outstanding loans.

people for the most part dont seem to understand that the major reason for borrowing isnt so the evil democrats and republicans can spend the country into further debt. its because about the only way to pay the interest on the debt without gutting the government utterly or raising taxes to a massive degree is to borrow money to pay the interest.
Going Forth!
 13 feotakahari, Sat, 14th May '11 11:52:24 PM from Looking out at the city
Fuzzy Orange Doomsayer
Goddamnit, I shouldn't be typing this so late at night. I meant, what do we do about the debt if we do raise the ceiling? Won't we have to default eventually, and won't the backlash get worse as the debt gets bigger?
That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful
They see me troll'n
It was an unrealistic goal in the first place. It is now as well.

We should do away with the debt ceiling, and start focusing on real ways to keep the debt under control. That is, start paying it back. The more we pay back, the less we pay in interest.

This can realistically only be done by increasing revenue.

^^Not particularly.

The best case scenario would be to get to a point where the debt is rising slower than inflation compensates for it. In such a scenario while the debt is ever-raising, the debt is technically getting smaller.

Essentially its pretty much impossible to "pay off the national debt" and a lot of economists argue it might not even be a good idea to do so. Theres really no feasible way of doing so without a massive gutting of the government, a bunch of new taxes, and an absolute cutoff of most basic government services for what is arguably zero gain to the country.

Either that or pay down the debt somewhat, but that'd require as commando said, a buttload of revenue. The main source of government revenue is TAXES. Good luck selling taxes to people who are absolutely convinced the debt can be solved simply by slashing programs they dont agree with.

edited 14th May '11 11:56:35 PM by Midgetsnowman

Going Forth!
They see me troll'n
Saying that paying the debt back is impossible really is really just scare mongering. If we cut the Bush tax cuts and funneled all that revenue into paying back our debt we'd be 3 trillion down in roughly a decade.

 17 deathjavu, Sun, 15th May '11 2:27:04 AM from The internet, obviously
This foreboding is fa...
The best part is, the debt ceiling in place is a fixed amount, not a percentage of GDP. So, in any sort of real terms, the debt doesn't even have to rise in order for us to hit the ceiling-just growth of GDP along with normal spending patterns would do it.

Pretty stupid, really.

Look, you can't make me speak in a logical, coherent, intelligent bananna.
Running a surplus and paying off the debt is far from impossible, Clinton and Carter both did it, and thus it's inevitable that Obama will too once the Bushcession is dealt with, but the Republicans aren't actually interested in the deficit nor the debt. As I noted in the budget thread, house Republicans already voted for the infamous Ryan budget, which just so happens to include the biggest debt ceiling raise in history, proving that this whole debt ceiling thing is just another shenanigan to try and strongarm Obama into repealing every major law the Republicans failed to oppose through the normal legislative process.

Eric,

Pro-Freedom Fanatic
Yes. It's good to stop it.

Governments should collapse and die. Bailing them out when they dig their own graves is unconscionable.

edited 15th May '11 4:17:32 AM by SavageHeathen

You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.
 20 Major Tom, Sun, 15th May '11 6:00:57 AM Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Eye'm the cutest!
Do any of you have a clue why debt is such a bad thing for governments? From an economics point of view, excessive debt is a serious liability and drain on an economy. The higher the debt, the more interest you must pay, the less money you have to participate in the economy. (Regardless of tax rates) Then you have the interest spiral that happens when monetary agencies begin to think you're going to flake out on your debt. Chiefly, it becomes more and more expensive to borrow money to pay for the same level, further causing liabilities and drain on the economy faster.

From an economics standpoint, rising debt is unsustainable in the long term. Just like we're seeing in Europe the bill is due on our uncontrollable, reckless domestic spending habits.
"Allah may guide their bullets, but Jesus helps those who aim down the sights."
 21 storyyeller, Sun, 15th May '11 6:07:34 AM from Appleloosa Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
More like giant cherries
Regardless of your position on government debt, failing to raise the debt ceiling is about the stupidest thing you could possibly do.

Life is simple: it has no nontrivial normal subgroups.
@tom: at the same time, we cant just go "Hurr lets not raise the debt limit at all" because thats about as likely to prevent a default as voodoo rituals.

Much as the republicans would rather scaremonger things, the only real choices are either cutbacks that will likely both hit democratic sacred cows but republican ones like military as well. Because people will sure as hell whine like children if we actually dial back tax cuts
Going Forth!
 23 storyyeller, Sun, 15th May '11 6:14:25 AM from Appleloosa Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
More like giant cherries
Unfortunately, the scale of the deficit is so large that it's pretty much impossible to avoid raising taxes as well. And of course, there's plenty of scope to raise them on the rich thanks to the last ten years of Republican antics.
Life is simple: it has no nontrivial normal subgroups.
True. But I'd imagine the republican base will whime about how "omg taxing the rich = no new jobs for anyone!"
Going Forth!
Pro-Freedom Fanatic
What if you want the government to collapse, or at least to fail spectacularly? Then forcing them into a no-budget situation would work wonders.
You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.
Total posts: 289
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