Abolishing prisons

[1] What does anyone else think of of the idea of abolishing prisons? I personally love the idea. [2] I really hate the idea esp. of kidnapping people and locking them up in cages for nonviolent crimes. For most violent crimes I think there are better alternatives than prison. What do you guys think?

"Had Mother Nature been a real parent, she would have been in jail for child abuse and murder." -Nick Bostrom

It's....a movement doomed to fail.

First of all, the main reason they're against imprisonment is because of supposed "racism, sexism, and classism". Just because there are plenty of blacks in prison doesn't mean theres racism. A white person committing a violent crime would also get arrested.

Because of how overly liberal our society is in regards to capital punishment, prison is the only thing we have for criminals. And even that is insultingly soft in modern days anyways. Notice how we added a BASKETBALL COURT in a prison.◊

And prisoners aren't exactly locked up. There are periods everyday where prisoners could walk out of their cells thanks to the attempts to soften prison.

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Also, nonviolent crimes can be damaging too. For example, fraud and money making schemes can devastate a person's life.

What about child pornography? It's harmless and nonviolent. Yet it's clearly damaging to the kid's reputation. Hence the pornographers should be locked away.

edited 2nd May '11 8:38:55 PM by Signed

"Every opinion that isn't mine is subjected to Your Mileage May Vary."

First we'd have to change the problems that society has at the moment to make an environment where people won't be forced into situations of large crimes.

Even then, there will be people who will break the law, so I don't know if it would work.

ᐅᖃᐅᓯᖅ ᐊᑕᐅᓯᖅ ᓈᒻᒪᔪᐃᑦᑐᖅ

What exactly do you think is an appropriate punishment for a violent crime, then?

Fines are a bad idea. I'm against corporal and capital punishment on principle, and I'm not sure that a public whipping or whatever is going to deter a violent criminal. What are you going to do with them?

What do you mean, damaging to the kid's reputation? I'm a lot more worried about the welfare of such a child than their reputation.

edited 2nd May '11 8:39:35 PM by LoniJay

Be not afraid...

"What are you going to do with them?"

When it comes to murder, execute them? Or detain them permanently in much smaller humane facilities if necessary.

edited 2nd May '11 8:44:32 PM by LoveHappiness

"Had Mother Nature been a real parent, she would have been in jail for child abuse and murder." -Nick Bostrom

While I don't doubt that prisons could be reformed, I don't see how we could completely abolish them in a way that makes sense or isn't barbaric. Without prison as a punishment, what are our options? Kill them? Maim them? Torture them? Or I guess all crimes could be fined instead, but that just gives rich people complete freedom to do whatever they want, essentially legalizing bribery. Incidentally, this would discriminate against minorities far more than we currently do.

The whole idea is anarchist and/or utopian. Either we leave crimes essentially unpunished or we simply have a society with no crime being done ever. While the latter is a nice dream, it's not gonna happen and the former is just silly.

edited 2nd May '11 8:42:13 PM by Clarste

Hmmm...since people have problems with capital punishments because 'IT WAS A LIFE!', what's the public opinion of lobotomy?

Or something that permanently pacifies convicted criminals of violent crimes?...that isn't capital punishment? I mean, if we lobotomize them or find a way to shut them down without killing them, they won't yell "IT WAS A LIFE!" anymore.

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Either way, prisons are already excessively soft. Free times. Libraries. Basketball courts. TV's. Visiting time. And other bull that's making prison less and less like prisons everyday.

edited 2nd May '11 8:46:57 PM by Signed

"Every opinion that isn't mine is subjected to Your Mileage May Vary."

Detain them in humane facilitates? I'm sorry, but these people committed a crime and far, far more often than not, they belong in jail. Plus, they're being given decent food, TV, sports to play during "recess", and even weights to lift so they can get stronger while they're in there. Seriously, jail is supposed to be punishment, it needs to get tougher than it is now.

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.

@Love Yeah, I really don't think executing all murderers is an ethical or practical solution.

And what about non-murder violent crimes? You're going to kill everyone who's ever been violent to someone else?

And your second option is still prison. Just a smaller prison.

edited 2nd May '11 8:46:04 PM by LoniJay

Be not afraid...

"jail is supposed to be punishment, it needs to get tougher than it is now"

This sounds like it would be counterproductive at deterring crime.

"it's called negative reinforcement"

Yeah, let's use extreme torture to punish people while we're at it. This would drastically reduce crime right?

edited 2nd May '11 8:51:03 PM by LoveHappiness

"Had Mother Nature been a real parent, she would have been in jail for child abuse and murder." -Nick Bostrom

Love, it's called negative reinforcement. Make jail hard enough and people won't want to go back. That's the point, jail isn't nice and it shouldn't let you watch TV all day. Jail should just be a holding place for you to think about what you've done and realize, this isn't worth it.

edited 2nd May '11 8:50:32 PM by Usht

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.

^ Shouldn't it be "shouldn't let you watch TV all day"?

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Anyways, aren't there ways to permanently pacifiy criminals without capital punishing them? Surgeries, etc.

"Every opinion that isn't mine is subjected to Your Mileage May Vary."

How is making prison comfortable supposed to deter crime at all? A comfortable prison would just encourage those in poverty to intentionally get convicted so they can live in relative luxury compared to their outside lives.

Erm, shouldn't be watching TV. That was a typo. Long story short, jail should be the opposite of comfortable.

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.

I really, really dislike the idea of prison and would prefer that instead of punishment people be given help. Help to not be a murdering assbag or drug dealer or so on. Nice humane help with therapy and exercise and sewing circles. I do not believe that there is a single living being unworthy of compassion and help.

This won't be happening and likely wouldn't work in many cases though. It is sad, but the world is flawed as are the living beings within it and if many of those beings will refuse help. Or pretend to accept it only so they can get out and continue to be horrible.

edited 2nd May '11 8:53:08 PM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

"Long story short, jail should be the opposite of comfortable."

Hmm. I don't think most of the people there should have been arrested in the first place if they didn't do anything violent. Besides that, have you considered that having nothing to do and being very uncomfortable will increase riots and prison violence, and quite possibly increase recidivism rates?

"Had Mother Nature been a real parent, she would have been in jail for child abuse and murder." -Nick Bostrom

So basically, prisons are here because they're the easiest way to deal with law-breakers. If you have a better idea, by all means say it, but it has to be really good for it to replace prisons.

And of course, there are a lot of cases where you don't know what to do.

edited 2nd May '11 9:06:59 PM by Zersk

ᐅᖃᐅᓯᖅ ᐊᑕᐅᓯᖅ ᓈᒻᒪᔪᐃᑦᑐᖅ

Execute the rioters, even if their reason for being imprisoned wasn't that bad to begin with. Prisoners stupid enough to riot even if they know they will be released are beyond rehabilitation, not to mention, a clear threat to society if they show they can not be punished.

Just like how students who resists detention are expelled/suspended even if their initial deeds didn't warrant it.

In both cases, they shoulda known better.

edited 2nd May '11 9:12:19 PM by Signed

"Every opinion that isn't mine is subjected to Your Mileage May Vary."

It's a good thing Love, that we have therapists that visit these prisons for people that exhibit violent tendencies like that. Other than that, sitting around and doing nothing gives you time to think things over and it can be rather hard to stay angry for several days straight, let alone weeks, months, or even years in some cases. Plus, we got officers in there for the riots.

edited 2nd May '11 9:10:12 PM by Usht

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.

No victimless crimes either of course.

"Had Mother Nature been a real parent, she would have been in jail for child abuse and murder." -Nick Bostrom

You are fucked if you're the wrong color in a particular neighborhood.

edited 2nd May '11 9:14:56 PM by Usht

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.

Jail =/= Prison.

Important distinction to make, as there are substantive differences in the populations, what with the people in jail not necessarily being convicted yet.

But let's also consider the non-zero number of innocent persons convicted of crimes. That puts a threshold on what you should be allowed to do, what with the possibility of mistakes.

Ok, then let's consider that it would be much better to make productive use of people's time in prison. That means education and training, heck, even spiritual experiences are better than just locking them in a room and hoping they start feeling something about it. And I would actually prefer televisions as they are cheaper than the security options of keeping people isolated, with the benefit of keeping people in contact with humanity. When people get out of jail, do you want them lost and out of touch, or do you want them able to connect?

Of course, the issue of how bogus some laws really are, well, that's a whole different issue.

Lots of things to think about, doubt there's a simple answer, but I can recognize how many people are unsatisfied with the current system.

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but the two main difficulties of prison are as follows:

1. It tends to make criminals even more problematic. People who go into prisons often HAVE to join gangs to keep themselves safe, and stuff like drug dealing is all the rage. Imagine we have some guy who goes to prison because he got into a fight at a bar. Other than said fight, he was originally upstanding. Now: Is putting him in a building under difficult conditions, surrounded by a VERY rough crowd going to somehow *improve* his character? Like hell it will.
2. Prisons cost money, and are subject to over crowding. *cough* 3 strikes law *cough* the amount of time money and effort invested into this could be used to great effect elsewhere.

That said, it's not like we have anything ELSE to do with criminals...

edited 2nd May '11 9:24:56 PM by TheMightyAnonym

Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! ~ GOD

Send them to an island?

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.

So this isn't actually abolish prisons it's abolish Capitalism and bring about communist near utopia?

There are multiple arguments for different types of prison reform, this seems to be an argument based on furthering another agenda.

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