That Benjamin Franklin quote about liberty and security

This is my plea to fellow tropers (you know who you are) to stop misquoting it. The full quote is:

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

For some reason, people keep leaving out the bolded adjectives, making the whole statement much more absolutist than Franklin intended. And then they jam the butchered version willy-nilly into discussions about law and politics in order to shut down discussion. The unbutchered version actually encourages discussion—we can then debate about what constitutes "essential" liberty, how long safety has to last before it's worth giving up any liberty for, etc.

So please. Stop misquoting Franklin. He was a pretty cool guy, eh helped found the country and he didn't afraid of anything (even lightning).

Stuff what I do.

All liberty is essential.

You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.

Yes your liberty to rob banks and kill people is absolutely essential

Let's just stop with the anarchist discussions. Only two people here support it, and they've done nothing except spout ill conceived talking points.

Ok three then. It doesn't really change the fact that all you do is yell "FREEDOM!" and act like it constitutes an argument.

edited 6th Apr '11 7:22:11 AM by Alichains

MRDA is an anarchist too.

You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.

I wasn't aware that was the original version of the quote. Aren't I lucky I've never actually used it in a debate anywhere.

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I agree with Alichains.

Kill all math nerds

You guys do realize that you can't have as much freedom as possible without some security and you can't have as much security as you'd like without some freedom, right? The two are a lot more compatible than most people give them credit for.

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.

Me neither.

I actually figured this thread was going to be a rant by one of said anarchist tropers, so I'm pleasantly surprised.

What was the context of Franklin saying it?- like about whether or not to revolt against England?

edited 6th Apr '11 7:23:56 AM by Jordan

Hodor

@Usht: Of course.

You need an essential safety: Your rights being respected.

And you need an essential liberty: The right to do as you damn well please as long as you do not infringe on the equal liberty of another person.

You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.

You need law enforcement to keep gangs and violent groups from ruling over you with an iron fist and you need a certain amount of freedom to keep said law enforcement from abusing that power. Not everyone who has the law attached to their job is out to get you, you know.

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.

"Hey dude, can I stay in your tornado shelter while the twister is here?

"Okay, but you can't eat garlic bread while you're in here. I hate the smell"

"TYRANT!"

Kill all math nerds

This post was thumped by the Stick of Off-Topic Thumping.
Stay on topic, please.

You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it.

Yeah, keep telling yourself that.

Kill all math nerds

It makes perfect sense with the bolded qualifiers. Essential liberties would be things like the right to defend yourself, the right to speak your mind, to decide what to do with your life (even to become criminal, the point is you'd be punished for that), the right to choose where you live and conduct your business amongst peers, etc. A temporary security would be removing the right to speak out against your leaders in order to quell a potentially violent rebellion; even if the rebellion is broken up and the people feel safe, it will rise again and in more overt manner, and in the meantime no honest grievances can be voiced against the leaders and they become more authoritarian. The seeds of future disaster have thus been sown.

Sorry for the communitarian meme, but the modern criminal is nothing but an intrusive, glorified infection.

Seriously man, we've heard it.

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.

It's like Falconfly if you switched God to government.

Kill all math nerds

That's fine and dandy, except that you did not define what these rights are, or how to resolve the case of clashes between the rights of different people.

For example, if we admit that workers have the right to an healthy environment, it follows at once that people do not have the right to smoke in bars.

If we admit that children have the right of having caring and capable parents, it follows at once that no one who has a family has the right to drink in excess, or to partake in any other substance which would significantly impair their ability to be a good parent.

If we admit that people have the right to sleep, it follows at once that you do not have the right to have noisy parties in your backyard.

And of course, each of these arguments can be reversed with ease - my right to party could trump your right to sleep, or my right to get drunk could trump my hypothetical children's right to a capable parent, or my right to smoke could trump the waiters' right not to get lung cancer.

There are shades of grey here. Lots of them.

edited 6th Apr '11 7:38:34 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

^Yup. Which is why the strict ideological stuff does absolutely nothing.

I entirely understand the argument that we might not be as free as we could be. I agree. But the solution isn't to burn the whole thing down. The solution is to talk about which liberties and freedoms do we prioritize over others. We HAVE to make these decisions, and enforce them as a society. It's the only way to have any measure of freedom in the end. Because a constant state of personal war...is not freedom in my mind.

Democracy is the process in which we determine the government that we deserve

Ben Franklin is also quoted as saying America would descend into a despotism eventually.

I'm a skeptical squirrel

"I hate quotations. Tell me what you know."
— Ralph Waldo Emerson

edited 6th Apr '11 8:36:44 AM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Shall I assume that the irony was intentional?

Stuff what I do.

I don't see how the right to have a healthy workplace by design quells the liberty to smoke in the workplace. We do have air humidifiers, conditioners, cleaners and what not, not counting some spots in the buildings open to the exterior where you can go smoke; same for a bar, just keep a window open and make sure smoking customers stay close to them. The whole "you have this right, therefore you are oppressing this people" is an ideological issue that is simply removed from reality.

Fanfic Recs orwellianretcon'd: cutlocked for committee or for Google?

Ratix: I think I agree with the interprention.

A guy called dvorak is tired. Tired of humanity not wanting to change to improve itself. Quite the sad tale.

Karalora: that's actually very helpfull providing the proper quote my bad for misquoting so yeah but the problem is if the security is temporary the sacrifice of liberty also has to be temporary. Do you knowh ow long we've been in a state of crisis?

We must survive, all of us. The blood of a human for me, a cooked bird for you. Where is the difference?

I take the qualifiers to mean Franklin considered Liberty essential, like air; and a warning that any security we "purchase" with it temporary always. I don't see how "unbutchering" that quote diminishes the forcefulness of the quote. In fact, it merely emboldens it.

edited 6th Apr '11 3:29:00 PM by GreatLich