How to make water levels good.

I think the main problem with water levels is that it's just no fun moving slower than usual. I think swiming in video games should be like flying underwater. I know it's not realistic but that should never get in the way of fun.

Put me in motion, drink the potion, use the lotion, drain the ocean, cause commotion, fake devotion, entertain a notion, be Nova Scotian

Isn't that called a space level?

I think the big problems about some water levels are the controls. Especially those that make you float right back up if you don't keep pressing the button that makes you dive.

edited 27th Mar '11 10:42:01 AM by Thrombin

Here's what I think.

• Make sure there is a convenient way to defeat enemies. If not, make there be less enemies or make them less agressive.

• Don't make the rooms too wide. Since some people tend to be compelled to explore every nook, a large room where you can get to anywhere in it takes a long time to explore, while narrow corridors require you to only look with your eyes.

• Faster movement, even if the level needs to be longer to compensate.

• Sometimes, good scenery/music can really help.

Donkey Kong Country, especially the first one, is how an underwater level should be, even though it tends to break the first suggestion. The swimming speed is fast, you can get Enguarde for easier control and a way to defeat enemies, the music and scenery is incredible, and in the first one, underwater areas tended to be a long but linear path that focuses less on exploring and more on getting through the level's hazards.

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Good water levels = Super Mario Galaxy.

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Good water levels = Donkey Kong Country 1

Super Mario Galaxy had some good ones, but DKC's were actually good to the point of being more fun than some of the regular levels, an extreme rarity when it comes to water levels.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!

I wouldn't quite say they're better. They were good, yes, but they lacked the platforming that I enjoyed so much in the regular levels.

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All that is wrong with water levels

And may they burn forever. I hate that they're necessary for variety but I have not found a game with a water level I've enjoyed. Yes, even the Mario games. Rayman, Banjo-Kazooie, Megaman games, Legend of Zelda, no matter where I go some torturous water level seems to follow.

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I liked Atlantis in Banjo Tooie, since you don't have any air gauge.

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You all make it seem like water levels are typically badly designed.

In fact most platform games I played either handle swimming well, or just have you drown. If a water level is hated in Mario game, it tends to be for forced scrolling or annoying enemies. The land levels are also hated for that.

Shooting games typically don't let you swim, water is something to just slow you down. Would you prefer fly paper, water at least leads to interesting stealth ideas or unique enemies.

Space/flying shooters treat water like an obstacle, or treat it just like air, but I can't remember any of those being particularly bad. Every water level hated in ship shooters is hated for the same reason as the non water ones.

Even in beat em ups, slash em ups or action adventure games, water levels don't tend to get widespread hatred for just being water levels. The infamous water dungeons of Legend Of Zelda? There are usually plenty of water segments that no one bitches about outside of those dungeons, the Ocarina Of Time Temple was the only one with a particular bad design, the other just had confusing puzzles, which is kind of par the course for the series.

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There aren't many water stages that bother me, but I dislike extremely wide water areas since you have to explore along the y-axis in addition to the x-axis and/or z-axis.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!

Water levels don't bug me. =/

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Actually, one of my favorite areas in Cave Story was the Waterway. The music and the atmosphere worked quite well.

The crashed Pirate Frigate from Metroid Prime 1 was one of my favorite parts. True, the Metroid series' water levels are no different from regular levels if you have the Gravity Suit, but the place was just awesome.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!

I don't think that works physically, old bean.

I enjoyed the controls that Majora's Mask gave to the water segments, even if the dunegon itself wasn't that great. An easy dive, fast swimming speed, a quick way to kill underwater enemies (the electric field)...

edit: Oh my yes. The Wrecked Orpheon was amazing.

edited 27th Mar '11 11:52:13 AM by Enlong

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I thought one of my favorite water sequences was that one boss fight in Super Mario Galaxy where a sea monster was chasing you and you had to shoot shells at it.

I thought swiming was a little clunky in that game but that scene was so dang dramatic.

Put me in motion, drink the potion, use the lotion, drain the ocean, cause commotion, fake devotion, entertain a notion, be Nova Scotian

Heh. To be honest, my favorite part of any water level was turning into Ice Mario and skating on top of it.

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Sometimes, it also helps if the game's designed from the ground up to be mostly or half water-based. See The Legendary Starfy, Ecco The Dolphin, and Endless Ocean.

True, but that's mainly because then, you don't have a "normal" movement speed or fighting ability to compare to, so it doesn't feel like being in water hamstrings your abilities.

edited 27th Mar '11 12:39:12 PM by Enlong

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Hydrocity Zone. Zelda. That is all.

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Aquarium Park was a fairly good water level.

Maybe that's just because Sonic could jump infinitely and drill through the water, though.

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Ah yes. Those were good stages. Hydrocity is the best of Sonic water levels though.

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah

You know what water level I thought was really good, but it seemed a lot of people hated it just because it was a water level? Vashj'ir in World of Warcraft. You moved faster underwater than you would on land, there was no risk of drowning, and the scenery was about as nice as the crappy 2004 graphics engine will allow. The only real problem is that it's hard to judge how far away enemies above you are, and the respawn rate is pretty ridiculous, since they assumed the zone would be packed (and at launch, it pretty much was). It's also one of the funniest new zones, along with Uldum. Some of the quests are just too funny (i.e. "A Case of Crabs").

It seems like a lot of World Of Warcraft players hate it simply for the fact that it's all underwater. Atlantis Is Boring and all that.

That said I don't have much experience with 90% of the zones you guys are talking about. Most of the games I play seem to have the mandatory sewer level, which may or may not have some water in it, rather than a true underwater level. Those tend to be reviled, too, even if they're well-designed. I blame the fact that it's almost impossible to make a visually interesting sewer.

I found Balloon park the worst of the Sonic 3 levels. Sandopolis the worst of the Knuckles levels. And Metropolis zone was just tedious and difficult. Too long, dull surroundings, and outright cheap enemies. The water levels were fine though; Aquatic ruins never gave me a real problem, Hydrocity is fine once you figure out a few things and avoid the blasted chomps and got used to the crushing wall at the start of the level. Remember having "fun" with the bosses admittedly. But nothing like the hell that is Sandopolis. Or the furious race against the clock in Balloon Park.

edited 27th Mar '11 1:31:07 PM by GameChainsaw

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Nah nah nah man. Good water levels= Spyro the Dragon. You were able to move freely in three dimensions, ou could get your speed up to huge speeds with the dash move, the area was open enough that you had room to gallop, but closed enough you didn't get lost....that game is the best example I can think of for a water level.

DKC 2 had some nice water levels (Except for the one with Glimmer). Probably because of Enguarde showing up more.

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