Needs some kind of cleanup: Useful Notes.Misplaced Nationalism

Misplaced Nationalism is a kind of a funny article. The description goes out of its way to discuss how people will get into flame wars at the drop of a hat and even cautions tropers to be careful with their examples. One look at the list should reveal that it's basically, "every country/nationalism ever", with extra natter thrown in on the more controversial topics.

As amusing as it is for the examples to make Misplaced Nationalism a Self-Demonstrating Article, for the sake of the Rule Of Cautious Editing Judgement, I think we have to enforce a paredown or at worst an Example Sectionectomy.

I could agree with a radical Example Sectionectomy, leaving only a few of the most explosive ones.

When I reported the page, I was more looking at the war in the Discussion page. Looking at the examples, can't really say any of them seem all that worth keeping. I mean is anyone really surprised by the idea that Israel and Palestine don't get along or that people post crazy nationalistic comment on Youtube?

We've already had a Trope Repair Shop discussion about the Misplaced Nationalism page, and I am still strongly against an Example Sectionectomy as I was back then. The decision was made to appoint someone to as a Curator from what I saw of it last, since then they had paired down many of the examples to more neutral versions, while deleting others that were unsalvageable.

The problem Jordan reported—that is, the ongoing fight in the discussion page—is something that has been happening elsewhere on TV Tropes. It is not constrained to just this article.

There are people from Spanish or Portuguese-speaking countries who go and vandalize articles that have to do with the United States (e.g. Eagleland, America Saves the Day), either adding in insults toward Americans for calling themselves American, rewriting any instance of the word "American" with a slur or their native language's gentilic, or doing both.

That's precisely what has been going on in the discussion page; it's been an off-and-on argument in the discussion page ever since the guy's vandalism was reverted last month. Because this kind of crap has happened on other TV Tropes pages, and because most of the fighting has remained in the discussion page after the initial reversion, cutting out the examples is the wrong approach. It isn't going to make the problem go away.

EDIT: I can spell! Really, I can!

edited 12th Mar '11 5:46:05 PM by TrevMUN

Didn't we have a thread about this a little while ago where we agreed that it could keep its examples as long as whatsisface did the Wiki Curator whatchamacallit?

Yeah. The crowner shows that Cygan Angel was appointed curator, and it clearly beat out all other proposals, including Example Sectionectomy.

Cygan Angel's been doing her job well, too. The article is a lot less inflammatory than it used to be.

EDIT: For the life of me, I just can not spell Example Sectionectomy ...

EDIT EDIT: Didn't realize Cygan Angel is female until I looked at her troper's page ...

edited 12th Mar '11 5:28:13 PM by TrevMUN

I think that the anti-American stuff is bad, not ignoring that. Just pointing out that even the "good examples" aren't the best.

edited 12th Mar '11 5:26:08 PM by Jordan

First, I didn't know the page had a curator. Thanks to Cygan Angel for keeping the page as clean as it now is.

Second, I guess I misunderstood the report in Ask The Tropers. I see now the argument going on in the discussion page and it's a blatant example of exactly what the page is talking about. I wonder what's the best way to handle it. Page locking? Banning of tropers who do it?

Oh wow. I checked Jordan's report in Ask The Tropers, and then Maki P's page. That's ... yeah. I'll admit I wasn't very cool-headed in dealing with him (considering I've had to clean up after like-minded vandals before, this specific form of Yank-bashing gets my goat pretty easily), but I had no idea Maki P went as far as to say stuff like that.

I'm not sure if locking pages is the best solution, though. It was done to both Eagleland and America Saves the Day in the past, for similar reasons (I think)—but that keeps people from adding genuine examples, and whenever the page is unlocked it leaves it open to the same kind of wonks who'd vandalize it in the first place.

Maybe a direct warning would be the best bet, especially since TV Tropes now requires people to register to edit. A lot of the past vandals I noticed were Unknown Tropers.

edited 12th Mar '11 8:11:15 PM by TrevMUN

The difference between this and Eagleland or America Saves the Day is simple; people will inevitably need to add in-universe examples to those pages. This page is a Useful Notes page and only contains real life examples, so any new examples run the risk of insulting someone.

edited 13th Mar '11 12:17:44 AM by Scardoll

Not in this case, because Jordan made that report on a Discussion Page fight that wasn't caused by any one single example added by someone else.

It stemmed from a person going through that article and replacing instances of the word "American" with something else, then ranting about how "offensive" it is that Americans call themselves Americans on the discussion page.

That kind of vandalism has also happened in the articles I mentioned—and, I'm sure, in many other articles on TV Tropes over various points in time. The thing that's "offending" these guys is a gentilic in English that sounds similar to one from their native language yet has a different meaning.

It's an incredibly absurd reason, and their actions are offensive in and of themselves, but it's happening nevertheless.

edited 13th Mar '11 1:36:17 AM by TrevMUN

I thought we didn't keep examples on Useful Notes pages?

It depends on what you class as an 'example'. The amount of examples on that page, however, is far more than on the average Useful Notes page.

When the page was run past first off, it was a Mainspace Trope. I figured the examples were there for a reason.

Now, it would, perhaps, be best to cut all but the most relevant examples.

Discriminating between what is and is not relevant would only fuel the arguments. We can't say, for example, that the British making fun of the Americans is relevant, but Australians making fun of New Zealanders isn't.

If we're going to cut examples, we should cut all examples.

edited 14th Mar '11 10:27:26 AM by halfmillennium

I hate those Kiwi bastards.

But yeah, I don't see how you could have any kind of decent example list for this trope.

Hey! I'm the vandal (although I insist it's not vandalism if you're trying to fix something, but let's not go into that)

I don't want a fight, I don't want to offend anybody. I want a cool level-headed discussion on the subject of whether is wrong or not using the word "American" to mean "person from the United States of America" as opposed to "person of the continent of America". I've been trying to do that, but I keep failing miserably (I know I let my emotions get the best of me).

Also I don't think anybody gets my point. You see down here in Latin America, in Spanish, we believe in a continent called "America" that has 35 countries and 25 dependencies. Now from what I can gather English-speaking people believe there are two continents one called "North America" and the other one called "South America", I believe that makes no sense because it should make international interactions awkward; and it kinda means Central America is part of North America which is ridiculous because I'm a Central American and I've never heard anything of the sort, I mean shouldn't I know that? Also I wonder, if there's a country "America" and there's a continent called "America" doesn't that get confusing? How do you tell apart people from the continent called America from the people of the country called America? I'm an American from America, but I wasn't born in America so I'm not American? Do you understand?

So, does anybody understand what I'm trying to say? Can anybody at least understand that down here in Latin America this is a very important issue even if it's not for you up there in the States? Or that I'm not trying to be a troll or a bully or anything like that? Just someone trying to defend a cause they honestly and heartily believe it's right? Can anybody?

We understand what you're saying. However, you are wrong. Linguistically, if not in terms of your wounded national pride. More to the point, you're working as an example of exactly what the article is talking about, which is amusing but not really the tone we're trying for on this wiki.

Let me be more clear. We have no interest in myopic nationalistic crusades on this wiki. We will not allow you to use TV Tropes as a vehicle for altering the common use of language to suit your pride. If you can't get that through your head, we will remove your editing rights.

On a less antagonistic note, this wiki attempts to be descriptive, not prescriptive. We are here to describe what is, not what should be. If "American" is the gentilic that is in common use around the world, that is what we will use. Change the world's usage of the term first, then come change our article.

edited 14th Mar '11 4:38:47 PM by Fighteer

Short and sweet version, Maki: this site isn't the place to make your case.

edited 14th Mar '11 12:42:04 PM by Madrugada

Very well, I understand. I will leave the issue alone. Althought I still think you do not understand my position. And that this is a very important issue

It doesn't matter whether we understand your position. This site is not the place for it.

Speaking of which, writing things like "This has casued her problems with the administrators, who fail to understand her position, but will not change her point of view" in your Troper's page is not the best way to demonstrate that you're letting the issue go, Maki P.

Eh. It's on her troper's page, it's not a problem. It's when it slops over onto other pages that it becomes a problem.

Besides, just because I won't change my mind about an issue doesn't mean I'm gonna keep arguing about it (even if Wiki Leaks proves US is working with the president to take over the country [stupid gringos and stupid chinchilla, I hate them all])

Sorry I'm just really angry at my government right now (stupid bitch, doesn't deserve to be the First Female President)