Is slavery worth love?

Are you sure about that? I'd think that would only be the case if your family and friends were also slaves. Children not sure. I suppose children made by you while you are a slave could be locked as one too.

You can be sold whenever, sure. At that point I would wonder how much you would care enough to not try to assassinate your shitty master. Or even just kill yourself.

If people learned from their mistakes, there wouldn't be this thing called bad habits.

Then why haven't masters in the past been assassinated left and right?

I kind of want to send a link of this discussion to my old friend and see what he thinks.

EDIT: Aww, his account on the website is closed, so I can't contact him anymore. Oh well.

Banned entirely for telling FE that he was being rude and not contributing to the discussion. I shall watch down from the goon heavens.

@Annebeeche: If they were, it's not very likely that one would know about it. The other masters would not want the word getting around that a slave killed a master. The slave who killed the master would not want to be found out and killed or have their entire family punished for murdering their master.

So everyone that would be in a position to know how the master truly died would have reason to not tell. Unless there's some convenient detective or reporter... But they'd probably turn the slave in for murder, which would discourage other slaves from murdering their masters and encourage their masters to take precautions to avoid assassination. And everybody involved would probably try to prevent that story from getting out.

Great, now I have the urge to write a story about this.

edited 4th Mar '11 8:35:55 PM by AlirozTheConfused

Never be without a Hat! Hot means heat. I don't care if your usage dates to 1300, it's my word, not yours. My Pm box is open.

He shouldn't have to. Anybody that has to force anything probably is very skilled at it. That's pretty much a general rule. You have to beat your front door to open it? You don't have the finesse. You carefully pull up on the knob so that it the door pops open without difficulty? Then you do have the finesse.

I guess, if I was in the older days of America, when people had slaves, and I myself had a slave, I would think of my slave as... sort of like a really close worker. Perhaps a combination of a hired hand and a child, or something to that effect.

Whenever I read about the master from those days, I can't help but think of them as Stupid Evil. It always seemed to me as if they killed slaves because the could, not because they wanted to maximize profits.

If you love your slave, and your slave loves you back, then what need would there be for a tether or whip? What reason for tears and death? Such a slave would be far more motivated and useful than any oppressed and starving person. If anything, they would even have potential.

Again though, I must ask if a slave who is treated like this is really even a slave. If they are practically the son of their master, then what are they really? A prisoner-servant?

---

Of course, this could all take a dark turn if it were as I mentioned before, where such love is really only a twist of brainwashing. I suppose, such a master would still be far preferable to one who uses a whip.

Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! ~ GOD

Ignoring the thread's intended situation, people who would willingly become slaves for something like incredibly shitty wages (but still any wages) probably had a life bad enough to not care enough anyway (and they could have somehow hoped for a better master if they were sold) did not have enough strength to even use a sharp tool to kill their masters in their sleep or something like that (I suppose selling could be immediate and there wouldn't be enough time for that though, also anyone with such low strength is probably essentially in dying condition by then anyway) or were too scared to because of that annoying psychological problem humans have killing other human beings no matter how much of a piece of unnecessary litter the human they're trying to murder is.

If slavery really is the worst thing that can happen to you, i'm not seeing a problem here.

edited 4th Mar '11 8:36:50 PM by Edmania

If people learned from their mistakes, there wouldn't be this thing called bad habits.

^ But being turned in for murder would send all the slaves a message: "Don't murder your master. You will get caught, everyone will just go to a different, possibly worse master, and absolutely no good will come to anyone of it. You cannot succeed".

It might improve your situation, going from a slave place to a jail or dying, but it won't help anyone else; probably just the opposite.

edited 4th Mar '11 8:41:17 PM by AlirozTheConfused

Never be without a Hat! Hot means heat. I don't care if your usage dates to 1300, it's my word, not yours. My Pm box is open.

They wouldn't be a slave though. They would be a prisoner. Which I could consider worse, but we're dealing with a "slave = worst ever" here. I don't know if they sell prisoners as slaves though. I suppose in a place where slaves are common that could be a case, but even people that aren't in too bad of a situation can be murderers, and the message they send from being captured doesn't seem to be stopping murder anytime soon.

If people learned from their mistakes, there wouldn't be this thing called bad habits.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if a slave murdered their master, it would probably be kept secret, and that might be why we so rarely if ever hear of slaves murdering their masters.

Also, coming back to the love part of the question, would the master's murderer still be able to be with his or her love or free his or her love?

Nothing is worse than slavery (at least in this hypothetical situation). Running away with your love is risky, but better than nothing.

edited 4th Mar '11 9:06:56 PM by AlirozTheConfused

Never be without a Hat! Hot means heat. I don't care if your usage dates to 1300, it's my word, not yours. My Pm box is open.

Freeing the person (at least from the dead master) should be easy enough. They could still be together but they would probably have to run away and stuff like that. But hey, better than worse-than-everything slavery, right?

If people learned from their mistakes, there wouldn't be this thing called bad habits.

Thread Hop

Yes.

"All pain is a punishment, and every punishment is inflicted for love as much as for justice." — Joseph De Maistre.

I think I'd pass. I do believe that love is a real thing, and a good thing at that, but the idea that there's only "one true love" for anyone is a total crock, and no one person (no matter how much you love them) is worth giving up your own freedom and self for.

edited 4th Mar '11 9:16:00 PM by Sporkaganza

Always, somewhere, someone is fighting for you. As long as you remember them, you are not alone.

Seconded.

-sensible high five!-

Always, somewhere, someone is fighting for you. As long as you remember them, you are not alone.

The problem is still easily solved by throwing enough money at it (buy and free lover). Getting that money on the other hand... we'll you'll commit the crime of robbing a bank for love, right?

The thing about making witty signature lines is that it first needs to actually be witty.

I'm surprised no Meatloaf references have sprung up in this thread yet.

I don't think my ideal woman would be the type of person who would ever approve of me becoming a slave for her.

You're an ad hominem attack!

Again though, I must ask if a slave who is treated like this is really even a slave. If they are practically the son of their master, then what are they really? A prisoner-servant?

Still a slave.

Again, it's not the treatment, it's the status. It doesn't matter what kind of master you are at all; as long as the slave has to do what you say they're still a slave, and that's still the worst thing in the world.

I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. -0dd1

Interesting point of view. Three questions, then:

1. Worse than what? If you had an awesome life as a slave, with a kind & loving master, would that still be the worst life in the world as opposed to say, a horrible and pointless death in the streets from starvation?
2. An interesting observation from all this would be that many "free" Americans are living the worst possible lives, even many wealthy ones, as they must obey the government in taxation and their employers in just about everything, lest they fall. And as for those who are really poor... would they be evidence of anti-slavery laws being violated?
3. What is it that you gain from freedom that you would be so unwilling to give up, specifically? I don't want a generic saccharine answer, I want specifics. Like "I wanna be a fireman!", or "I want to live in France!", something like that. Or is it simply a matter of principal? Such that even if the two lives are identical, save that the slave life is perhaps even better, you still wouldn't accept it because of some aspect of morality?

As it stands, losing control of my life in exchange for hope and the well being of others is something that I'm fully willing to subject myself to. I regularly cast aside thing of value to myself anyways, as it is, to the point of selling myself short on a whim; nothing else would bring me such happiness. Failure to do so would be hugely troublesome to me.

As for the premise of the question, I think the point is that the master doesn't separate you from your lover, rather the point is that you become a slave in exchange for spending your life with your love. If no other options were present, I would accept the exchange.

edited 5th Mar '11 9:32:08 AM by TheMightyAnonym

Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! ~ GOD

1. Yes, for the same reason that dying as you make the winning shot in the best basketball game in your life  ^*
   ^{Yay cross-thread reference!}
   would be better than dying in the stands while not being sweaty, tired and generally uncomfortable.
2. No matter what a libertarian might tell you, taxes are neither theft nor slavery; they're paying for the services the government provides. You are entirely free to wander into the wilderness and be free of taxation.
   Employment is also not slavery, though working at something you hate is also quite bad.
3. I already gave the answer before, but lemme rephrase it:
   Everyone has something that would make them really and truly happy; this is essentially the meaning of their life. The point of life is to search for this thing, find it, and then enjoy it. (As an aside, read up on existentialism sometime.)
   But a slave can't do any of that, because a slave isn't free. Thus the life of a slave is pointless and miserable, even if the slave is treated well, in the same way that you would probably rather not live in a state of drugged euphoria for the rest of your life; even though it would feel nice, it would not really make you happy, because only you can make yourself truly happy.

edited 5th Mar '11 9:58:09 AM by BlackHumor

I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. -0dd1

And what if the master allows you to pursue what you want, and what if what you gain in exchange from slavery is the very thing you were using your freedom to look for? I use my freedom for the sake of the cheesy principal of love. If slavery would best serve that, then I would choose it.

Further, you did not answer the specifics I asked for.

And lastly, I would like to ask your opinion on self-sacrifice.

edited 5th Mar '11 10:01:43 AM by TheMightyAnonym

Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! ~ GOD

Then it's not really slavery.

Sorry for interrupting.

Good point, he did seem to jump around your questions without really answering them, though he did have a point with what he said, and he did contribute to the discussion.

A slave, if my knowledge of the term is correct (if it is not please feel free to correct me), must work towards the goals of the master. A slave that works for his or her own goals thus does not really fit the definition of a slave, methinks; though you probably meant to ask what if a master allows a slave to do things that the slave wants or intends to do, which I think is a different thing than allowing the slave to work for the slave's own goals.

edited 5th Mar '11 10:06:38 AM by AlirozTheConfused

Never be without a Hat! Hot means heat. I don't care if your usage dates to 1300, it's my word, not yours. My Pm box is open.

Not sure if that make sense though. Then a slave is someone who is denied what they want? Not someone who has to follow orders?

Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! ~ GOD

I would say it is if the status is the only thing we're caring about here.

If people learned from their mistakes, there wouldn't be this thing called bad habits.

No True Scotsman?

Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! ~ GOD

Still not worth it; your master can still separate you from what you love and there's nothing you can do to stop it. Because of this, if you enter slavery in the pursuit of what makes you happy, you haven't truly found it yet because it can still escape you.

And how can I give specifics for all of humanity? Oh nevermind, I misread the question.

What do I gain from freedom personally? The ability to search for what makes me happy, at this point.  ^*

I can't give specifics because I don't know specifics yet.

If I had to, though, the ability to work on countless random things that I start and rarely finish. A bunch of Python scripts, a few incomplete conlangs, one incomplete conworld, whole bunch of other stuff I can't think of right now.

I don't have an opinion on self-sacrifice in general; if you could give me something a little more specific I might be able to talk about it more.

edited 5th Mar '11 10:18:47 AM by BlackHumor

I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. -0dd1

That avoids my axiom though. What if it's a good master that doesn't separate you? You still have to do work, such as, say, tending a farm, but the master doesn't whip you or take away what you entered slavery for, as per the deal. In this situation, is it still the worst life possible? (pretend for a moment that you are a hopeless romantic like me or something, or replace the romance with something else which you would value as deeply as the question implies)

Touche'.

I guess sticking to the theme, would you sacrifice your good free life, in order to help another? I suppose though, being specific doesn't help. I asked the question originally in a general sense. I was curious what you might think of a person who enters slaver for no reason other than to ease the pain of the others in slavery, for example.

How short are you willing to sell yourself? Basically.

EDIT: Then what you want to do is a mix of more casual things like being able to lounge around every now and then, and being able to do something of effect in this world?

The latter is something of a moral concept, I suppose. If you can save people, then squandering that ability is something I would consider directly evil. Even in this context of being with the one you love, and even making their life easier. Such wouldn't compare to the plight of many.

edited 5th Mar '11 10:23:47 AM by TheMightyAnonym

Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! ~ GOD