Real-life implications of "Humans Are Bastards"

Humans can't be bastards as a whole because we can't agree on a single definition of what makes a bastard a bastard, and then apply it to the entire human race.

This is the same reason why humans can't be angels, either. We're complex. Trying to say we're negatively complex or positively complex is deciding whether or not the glass is half full or empty.

Take just a single damn philosophy class, guys. If you say all humans are bastards/angels, then how come there's good/bad in the world? Flukes of your otherwise perfect, flawless system? Hard to believe.

People who say humans are bastards, in my past experience, have been egocentric douches. Too beautiful for this awful world, they think. They fail to take in basic philosophical ideas, such as how we naturally do what's in our best interest, and how it doesn't matter if we decide that action is good or bad. We act based on our environment. Get off your high horse and quit assuming that everyone should live up to your subjective ideas of altruism.

edited 21st Oct '11 9:07:19 AM by HeavyDDR

I'm pretty sure the concept of Law having limits was a translation error. -Wanderlustwarrior

This one never claimed that every single human is bastard. There are exceptions, and that's why the rest are bastards. And yes, this one is bastard too, so no high horse here

If we disagree, that much, at least, we have in common

looks at avatar

Nice pun.

“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard

By what definition makes a bastard? Just so I'm clear to your standards. Because even if you say "most humans are bastards," what makes the exceptions so exceptional? What makes the rest bastardized?

I'm pretty sure the concept of Law having limits was a translation error. -Wanderlustwarrior

"By what definition makes a bastard?"

"Hmm, would you object to defining 'bastards' as 'those who daily and remorselessly violate the Golden Rule'?"

“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard

Bastards are those who would hurt sapient beings (that did not/are not in process of hurting anyone else themselves) without their consent

If we disagree, that much, at least, we have in common

I would have to say that it's more of a 'humans are bastards, in circumstance.' We can be the nicest person ever, but unintentionally do something that is bastardly in someone else's view.

I go with what Beholderess said, pretty much.

To clarify why this one goes with "bastards" instead of "flawed". Humans are curious blend of natural instincts and free will. If it was only conscious decisions which determined one's behaviour, then it could be said that some humans decide to act like bastards, some don't, but neither can be used to make a statement about species as a whole. However, some of the natural and understandable reflexes of humans are pushing them towards acting like bastards. Hence, it is a species thing. But humans are able to override such impulses, and know better. So, their actions can be evaluated from the point of view of ethics.

If we disagree, that much, at least, we have in common

Humans Are Humans. Which is to say, they don't really have a set description (or "nature", if you will) you could give them, even in the "the large majority of humans are this and the exceptions exist so I can say I'm not a Straw Man/Woman, which means I'm still 'right' in the majority of the cases, so ha" way.

But if you want something akin to an "opinion" from me, I'll say we're somewhat selfish (which isn't an inherently bad thing), we usually don't go out of our way to behave in an altruistic or assholish manner, and when we do, it's an "exception".

edited 21st Oct '11 11:12:10 AM by Ekuran

People as a whole aren't bastards: there are bastards, of course, but I believe they are not as much as we think they are, it's just that most people that produces fiction (and I'm really over-generalizing, I know, but hell, that seems in most cases I know or I have read about) are or were usually easy targets of other people mockery, so while they have their reasons, their visions are usually biased against humanity

Hell, I am not saying we are saints either, but it really depends of basic and personal experience,

To me? Yeah, sign me up in Humans Are Flawed

edited 21st Oct '11 12:51:27 PM by Anthony_H

We could use that definition, sure...but I don't think this is true of everyone. I probably violate the Golden Rule in little ways most days (not counting the occasional day where I don't even interact with other humans), but I feel bad about it. And if your archnemesis isn't a bastard by your own definition, whatever will you do? How will you maintain your sense of moral superiority?

Stuff what I do.

Humans are selfish, let's leave it that.

There's no justice in the world and there never was~

Humans tend to be selfish hypocrites, yes. Whether or not that makes us bastards is up for debate.

KCK ninja'd what I was going to say.

Humans are not bastards by default. We are, to some extent, selfish, by default. 'Tis a major difference, though selfishness can and does produce bastardliness by the bucket-load.

I am now known as Flyboy.

@Karalora:

Vladimir Lenin wasn't a bastard by my definition?!

“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard

@Beholderess: Define hurt, and sapient for that matter. Is not helping an injured man hurting them? Or, even broader, what if I helped a man cross the street, and then a car hit that man? Did I hurt them? What if ten years ago, I saw someone drop a penny and returned it to him, and that penny totally changed the course of their lives so that they died by a tragic accident? Did I hurt him, too? Should I have just kept the penny for myself?

More hurt: What if I was a boss and refused to give an employee a raise, even though he desperately needed it? Is that hurting him? Why should I give someone who doesn't deserve help, help?

Your definition of a bastard relies on the idea that all humans are perfect with the capability of doing all good, but a majority of us choosing not to. Which is looking at humans from a totally unrealistic view. We're flawed, complex creatures. The idea alone that we're able to have this conversation with such different view points is one of our complexities.

Someone else brought up the idea that humans are selfish. That's also true, but in the sense that there's no real way to be altruistic - to do only good against your common good. Even going into a building and dying in a fire to save others is still in your best, "selfish" interest because to you, it was clearly that important. We are selfish. We just do things that we assume will reward us the best.

I'm pretty sure the concept of Law having limits was a translation error. -Wanderlustwarrior

Bastardy is standard reaction. However, if given chance, humans prefer not to be bastards, when it doesn't cause any problems to them.

My word, puppy, that is some delusion of grandeur you got there.

Of course, by your definition, your own god is a bastard, so I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

edited 21st Oct '11 2:51:02 PM by Karalora

Stuff what I do.

@Beholderness You're pretty much saying nature vs nurture, right? If that's the case, then it's both.

"Of course, by your definition, your own god is a bastard"

Excuse me? You want to start a new thread to clarify?

“Love is the eternal law whereby the universe was created and is ruled.” — St. Bernard

You can if you wish. But I think you know exactly what I mean.

Stuff what I do.

Excuse me if I am being impertinent, but what's this about?

Exactly. "Bastardy is standard reaction" - that's why the statement can be made about humanity in general instead of individual humans. "However, if given chance, humans prefer not to be bastards, when it doesn't cause any problems to them". Of course! This one did not imply that most humans behave as bastards 24/7, or even actively looking for opportunities to do so. However, in certain circumstances normal human reaction is to act like bastard

Not quite. This one explicitly stated that it is both. And "nurture" is responsible for it's own fair share of bastardry as well

If we disagree, that much, at least, we have in common

My definition of bastard? Someone you hate. Someone that really pisses you off. Nothing more, nothing less (OK, maybe something less).

"I'll show you fear, there is no hell, only darkness." My twitter