General Sonic The Hedgehog thread

Still, it's weird to me to want "Modern Sonic only" and "all 3D" when the last 3-5 games have been that. Why is having Classic Sonic again an aberration when Classic Sonic 2D gameplay was effectively gone after Sonic Advance and didn't come back until Generations?

The invention of "Classic Sonic" to me is really Sega saying "we know you liked these, but we're proud of what we went ahead with. Rather than ditch one for the other, we've personified your nostalgia and made it relevant again."

Topping that, 2.5D gameplay is the best of both worlds. Having a pure 3D title invites the criticisms of Sonic Adventure 1 and 2, having a pure 2D title welcomes comments about Nostalgia Goggles and the equally trendy rose-colored glasses. 2.5D marries both styles of gameplay, giving me that classic feel while still allowing the game to be as fast and exciting as running down the building in Speed City or zipping through Rooftop Run.

edited 23rd Jul '16 11:51:28 AM by Soble

That's beside the point though; the series should move forward and not have to rely on tugging on people's nostalgia heartstrings for the sake of selling a game. All it really tells me is that Sonic Team do not have faith in the modern branch of the franchise to succeed on its own, when all it really takes is just some dedication and actual care on their end.

Like, Classic gets his moment to shine in Mania, Boom has the second season of the show to look forward to, but Modern can't stand on his own two feet without having classic as a crutch? It just feels really slighted to me, especially if you're someone who didn't get into the series from the classic era and thus, do not have the same attachment to him as someone growing up in the classic era did.

Even fans of the Classic era that I spoke to agreed that the classic incarnation of the character was not really needed in this game since he had already gotten plenty of exposure already.

edited 23rd Jul '16 11:54:36 AM by BlackYakuzu94

Aye, we're not going to see eye to eye on this.

But that is the exact strategy that keeps Mario in the game. Nostalgia is a tool, not a crutch. Paying homage doesn't mean Sega doesn't know how to move forward. That said, moving forward has been what's hurt the series.

More importantly, isn't this an anniversary game? Why would this game "move forward" when the point of an anniversary is to look back and celebrate? A couple here have already said this is pretty much Generations 2 in everything but name. But the name "Project Sonic 2017" isn't very convincing either.

Rise of Lyric was a critical failure, and Shattered Crystal was mediocre/average. It's the franchise's lowest point since 2006 and while I do like the show, I wouldn't lump that in as Boom's pound of flesh.

But then is it fair to slight those who started from the classic games? Should Classic Sonic be banned because those who started with/prefer the modern era don't have the same attachment? The trailer even gave Modern Sonic more facetime than Classic. Having both is really the best middle ground you're going to get.

Again, it's not like Modern hasn't had 6-7 games already, so I'd challenge the assertion those Classic fans made.

edited 23rd Jul '16 12:31:49 PM by Soble

Mario has never had Sonic's problem of separating it's current and former style. There's no need for Mario to ever do something like this or be in this kind of situation, because every single Mario game has new platforming elements mixed in with retro platforming elements (the closest thing to a "Classic Style" game Mario has ever had or needed is NSMB - in terms of gameplay, every main-line Mario game is essentially Mario Generations.

Mario wouldn't, say, throw Jumpman into a game and then start really pushing him, because there's no need. When going back to the old styles, it's still just Mario - so instead, would and have simply advertised 2D platforming levels alongside 3D areas in their games with the current Mario and watch as people lapped it up.

Meanwhile, the Sonic series still has people going up in arms and calling games horrible when there's too much or too little 3D, too much or too little 2D, etc, whereas the Mario series only real big problem is plot repetitiveness. The separation between Modern and Classic is pretty major, and ultimately the whole putting in Classic Sonic thing is a step even farther than that - it's not just introducing Classic elements, it's establishing a line of separation between the older styles and the current incarnation of character.'

This is not necessarily a bad thing, but it is a major stylistic and design difference that means doing a comparison like that between Mario and Sonic's ways of acknowledging the past doesn't work. Arguably, what keeps Mario in the game is not doing stuff like this.

I don't mind having both a new Classic game and a new game with the Generations Classic/Modern cross concept at all (I loved Generations, and I love the classic games, and as long as we keep getting stuff I love that can let me ignore the Boom stuff, I'm golden), but there definitely is a point to the idea that Sonic Team is forcing themselves to pick one or the other.

I still say what Sonic Team needs to do is find a way to introduce Classic gameplay more organically into Modern games (my theory is making Tails playable, but giving him Classic gameplay levels).

edited 23rd Jul '16 12:45:01 PM by KnownUnknown

The last time Mario really tried anything different with his playstyle was Sunshine, and it's known as the "Love it or Hate it" game of the 3D games

But I do not want Sonic to be Mario, I want Sonic to be Sonic lol. If I want to play Mario, I'll go play Mario. So that argument doesn't really work for me. And associating "moving foward" as the reason for the franchises` downfall is ignoring the myriad of issues wrong with them. They weren't bad because they tried something new, they were bad because they were bad, plain and simple. And yes, it is anniversary game and you'd have a better point if they didn't already use this same gimmick five years ago with Generations.

And using the "is it fair for Classic fans" argument is moot, because Classic Sonic isn't being neglected. He's in Sonic Dash and he's getting his own game to boot in Sonic Mania, so would excluding him from the big 3D game really have been a big deal for anyone?

I actually agree with this. I have no problem with Classic being his own thing, but then let him be his own thing. If they truly want all incarnations of Sonic to be their own thing, then do it. Because putting them together is just going to draw more comparisons to them than not.

edited 23rd Jul '16 12:46:22 PM by BlackYakuzu94

How is Modern Sonic being neglected?

Since Sonic 3 and Knuckles, we've had Adventures 1 and 2, Heroes, 2006, the Storybook games, Rivals, Unleashed, Colors, Lost World, and Generations. We're talking 11 games (excluding games like Riders, Shuffle, and Jump) that have featured Modern gameplay.

In Classic's corner, there's Sonic Blast (psh), the Rush games (2.5D), the Advance titles, and then nothing until Generations.

Neglect? If anything it's the other way round. We're talking years when the gameplay the series was founded on was simply abandoned.

People are going to draw comparisons no matter what. Simply having both games will do that, you'd have to obliterate one style to preserve the other (which almost happened until Generations came along). Having them both is, again, a middle ground. If Project Sonic was entirely modern and Mania was classic, there'd still be two groups of fans arguing which style is better.

Well I'm optimistic. I'm fine with them being put together, heavy stylistic difference or not, particularly because it's not going to happen often. It's not like we're going to see Classic Sonic pop up in the next 6 games. Eventually we're going to get to the badass, VR-gameplay Future Sonic and then both Modern and Classic fans will have something to jeer at.

edited 23rd Jul '16 1:20:45 PM by Soble

It might be better to assume that the poster above me fellow loves Classic design over Modern to a very large degree and just move on with your day.

edited 23rd Jul '16 1:25:11 PM by Grounder

I'm not even talking about amount of games each of them have, I'm simply speaking about Classic's presence in Project Sonic and it was needed at all, and that's it. You're getting off topic.

I kinda of already inferred that by his posting habits, but I just want to know why he feels like my points aren't warranted.

(2) You'd owe someone money, because Adventures 1, 2, Heroes, Shadow, Black Knight, Secret Rings, Generations, and Riders are actually my favorites. I even like 2006 to some degree. The only Sonic game I genuinely dislike with is Colors, because of the theme song and the Wisps.

Well my final word on this is that, objectively, there's more Modern games than not, so when there's one new Classic game and a game that mixes both styles, I don't see why that's suddenly giving Modern gameplay the cold shoulder.

edited 23rd Jul '16 1:51:41 PM by Soble

Once again, I am not speaking about the overall franchise I am simply talking about this specific game that is coming next year and nothing else.

A friend of mine made their first major video! Mind if i get some feedback on it?

Wow, that title really makes me want to watch that video.

For what it's worth this old insider post on Sonic Retro seems to imply that the gameplay isn't precisely the Generations style. I expect it'll utilize Classic Sonic in a way we don't quite expect.

edited 23rd Jul '16 7:22:23 PM by edvedd

Ian Flynn on whether or not he's writing Sonic 2017.

And he is reportedly just using the name some fans have been using if you look down the page a bit.

Well I have to say, Both games look promising, That is, both games derive from a formula that has been wildly successful in the past.

The questions incoming are twofold, Will the 2d game have enough content? Most people don't know this, but all of the 2d games are very short.

The other question is will the Generations continuation be on a more stable engine than Rise of Lyric, 3D games tend to be fuckey in that way.

I suppose this is slightly to be expected, but I just noticed that Nintendo retweeted the Sonic 2017 announcement. Probably as a courtesy thing and a 'wink wink' thing.

The reason the Classic/Modern Sonic split exists in the first place is because of how Sonic Adventure retooled and rebooted not just the gameplay of the Sonic series, but the entire tone, feel, and visual design of the series (compare Genesis Sonic's technicolor Trapper Keeper world to Sonic Adventure's realistic (for the time) aesthetic). While I know they've tried to pull the series aesthetic more towards classic stuff with games like Lost World, the specter of the initial decision to make such a clear break between 2D and 3D when Adventure came out still looms.

For all of Mario 64's brand spanking new (admittedly) groundbreaking gameplay ideas, it didn't try to redo the entire visual language or overall "feel" of the Mario franchise besides the shift to 3D graphics and gameplay.

The Sonic series deliberately tried to create a clear break from its 2D roots when it moved to 3D while Mario franchise tried to make its 3D debut feel like a natural extension of it's 2D outings. Make of that what you will.

Keep in mind that there are also those who hate either 3D or 2D, or those that hate the series altogether.

Also, this franchise is known for it's Broken Base.

That 3rd thing doesn't matter, we don't care about the haters, mang.

If nothing else, we can all agree to chastise the outsiders who think Sonic is dead.

edited 23rd Jul '16 10:33:33 PM by Soble

Indeed. Sonic never 'died' it just everyone gave up on the franchise.

OK so since Sonic Mania is referencing ultra obscure shit like the Sonic POPCORN MACHINE, I think it's about time they finally add some Scratch and Grounder snooping motherfuckery to the actual Sega Sonic games (MBM doesn't count)

...Why is it time? They're already enemies in the games (Sonic 2).

edited 23rd Jul '16 11:50:54 PM by randomness4

Grounder is in Sonic 2. Scratch hasn't made a regular game appearance outside of Bean Machine, though. He appears to based loosely upon Clucker, though.