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Arguments:

 1 Cojuanco, Sun, 20th Feb '11 2:44:31 PM from Riverside, CA, US
Student
What's the point of making a reasoned argument if the other side doesn't even accept the basic premises needed for such a debate?

Well, you have to argue first why the premises are reasonable and should be accepted.

Maybe that's why philosophical works are long. You have to convince the reader that 2+2=4 otherwise you're not doing it thoroughly.

edit: I guess you'd have to consider basic logic to be a universal "premise", I guess. If the other person operates on moon logic things might be icky.

edited 20th Feb '11 2:49:27 PM by melloncollie

 3 Cojuanco, Sun, 20th Feb '11 2:49:30 PM from Riverside, CA, US
Student
I'm talking about real-world debates, not the stuff we learn in lectures and seminars. About convincing regular people about why your side is the way to go.

Failed Comic Artist

This post was thumped by the Stick of Off-Topic Thumping.
Stay on topic, please.


I dont know why they let me out, I guess they needed a spare bed
That's also what I'm talking about. In any sort of argument you have to lay out what your premises are and why we should accept them.

 6 Tzetze, Sun, 20th Feb '11 2:54:27 PM from a converted church in Venice, Italy
DUMB
Maybe that's why philosophical works are long. You have to convince the reader that 2+2=4 otherwise you're not doing it thoroughly.

I'm not Myrmidon, but as I understand there is a school of philosophy that does this, resulting in books that are half-dictionary, whereas many philosophers seem more inclined to just cite the billion people before them, like in a science paper.
PARTY HARD!!!!
Point out and explain stuff like Ad Hominem to the arguee.

It's fun. ^_^
Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! ~ GOD
 8 Cojuanco, Sun, 20th Feb '11 2:56:36 PM from Riverside, CA, US
Student
[up]In my experience, outside an academic setting, that accomplishes - wait for it - nothing, though.

PARTY HARD!!!!
That doesn't stop it from being fun, though.

Not only that, but done properly, it can have some effect. Either that or it annoys the hell out of 'em.
Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! ~ GOD
 10 Tzetze, Sun, 20th Feb '11 3:01:51 PM from a converted church in Venice, Italy
DUMB
I'm talking about real-world debates, not the stuff we learn in lectures and seminars. About convincing regular people about why your side is the way to go.

The point of that is to get people to believe you regardless of the actual sense of your position, obviously.
 11 Cojuanco, Sun, 20th Feb '11 3:04:28 PM from Riverside, CA, US
Student
Of course, but that only works if they're not as committed to their position one way or another. If they already are hardcore, isn't arguing with them pointless?

PARTY HARD!!!!
If you can't get someone to see your side, look for common ground instead.

For example, if the other person hates X, instead of convincing them to like X, your arguing should focus on both educating them and drawing them to a different position such as "is OK with X".
Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! ~ GOD
 13 Ratix, Sun, 20th Feb '11 3:08:52 PM from Someplace, Maryland
Even if you can't convince the other party, everyone watching can still get something out of the experience by seeing where the different sides stand. Part of the reason why public debates make for great spectator experiences.

PARTY HARD!!!!
[up]That too.

It's a great exercise, even if the one you're arguing against gets nothing.

edited 20th Feb '11 3:11:04 PM by TheMightyAnonym

Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! ~ GOD
 15 Commando Dude, Sun, 20th Feb '11 3:13:34 PM from Cauhlefohrnia
They see me troll'n
"doesn't even accept the basic premises needed for such a debate?"

It's not their fault of the basic premise is flawed or abhorrent.
 16 Cojuanco, Sun, 20th Feb '11 3:16:03 PM from Riverside, CA, US
Student
I could say the same way of the other side and the premises they bring to the table. From my point of view, their premises are just as abhorrent, perhaps even evil.

Failed Comic Artist
So why do you bother debating at all then if everyone on the opposing side is so obviously the spawn of Liberal Satan?
I dont know why they let me out, I guess they needed a spare bed
 18 Cojuanco, Sun, 20th Feb '11 3:21:18 PM from Riverside, CA, US
Student
I don't think they're the spawn of Satan, no. Deluded, yes. And I debate because I have to spend my free time doing something remotely intellectually stimulating, otherwise bad things start to happen.

PARTY HARD!!!!
Satan is a Liberal?

I was so certain that he was a communist...
Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! ~ GOD
 20 Cojuanco, Sun, 20th Feb '11 3:23:33 PM from Riverside, CA, US
Student
Satan has no ideology. Personally, I don't think social liberals are evil, merely subject to wishful thinking. That aggravates me, though.

Satan is an anarchist (or pseudo-anarchist, at least. Maybe libertarian). God's the communist.

Failed Comic Artist
...You consider Internet debates intellectually stimulating? Dude, read a book or something. The only reason I come here is to yell at people I dont like. If anything, I can feel my brain cells dying when I read a particularly bad argument. Its pretty much the opposite of intellectual stimulation.
I dont know why they let me out, I guess they needed a spare bed
 23 del diablo, Sun, 20th Feb '11 3:27:38 PM from Somewher in mid Norway
Den harde nordmann
I guess a importent thing about debates is to point out that your position is no better.
Only after doing that, you can really start debatting on why a direction is better.
But yeah: Never try to convince people, it never works. Instead try to give them new opinions.
A guy called dvorak is tired. Tired of humanity not wanting to change to improve itself. Quite the sad tale.
PARTY HARD!!!!
Satan is an anarchist (or pseudo-anarchist, at least. Maybe libertarian). God's the communist.

I'll take communism over anarchy, myself. Better way to describe them, yes.

@SS: Yes, debates online can be very stimulating.

Especially on these fora.
Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! ~ GOD
 25 Bobby G, Sun, 20th Feb '11 5:39:46 PM from the Silvery Tay
vigilantly taxonomish
I'll take anarchy over communism any day, but I don't think Satan is strictly an anarchist. He's more of an egotist.

The only reason I come here is to yell at people I dont like.

Please don't do this. It's very much not what these forums are for, and the people who run this site would not approve.

In any case, I think such an attitude would go some way towards explaining why you never find online debates intellectually stimulating.
Total posts: 104
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