What are the intents of "bullies?"

Oh, I've had this happen.

See, there was this poser goth kid (actual goths in the REALLY early 2000s were nowhere near as dickish) who I caught reading a Fruits Basket manga from the school library. For the crime of asking whether he was enjoying the manga he was reading, he grabbed me by the collar and told me "You like this stuff? Well go screw your cardboard cut out girlfriend!" - proceeding to shove me.

Now, this was the exact day after the Christian Bale rant on set of Terminator Salvation or whatever happened. So I used a meme as a non-lethal weapon.

After he shoved me for this, I told him "We are fucking done, professionally."

He looked confused for a second. Then he shoved me again, and told me "What did you say? Go fuck your cardboard girlfriend!"

At which point I ran away before he could shove me again, but I didn't fight him or hit him back at all.

And until the day I graduated, and long after that - I never saw or heard from this douchebag again. Maybe he was expelled when the witnesses to this event ratted out on him. Or maybe - the weirder idea of what happened to him is true - I might have accidentally ZENNED HIM OUT OF EXISTENCE WITH OUTRIGHT PACIFISM.

Yeah, true story. It didn't happen to a friend of mine, it happened to ME.

Which reinforced my idea that male bullies in a wussy private high school like mine are the same kind of wusses Kaneda was talking about in Akira when he beats them up to get Tetsuo's action figure back. And I didn't even need to hit somebody.

It was a really weird feeling too. It was as if my utter lack of violence in dealing with him other than internet meme snark - utterly erased him from my environment.

Bullies get a long more flak than they deserve. Some kids need to get bullied. That's how many behavioral things are taught.

Here's the thing...in my experience, bullies don't give two shits about improving their targets, and most likely oppose it. Bullying is an act of dominance, and if their prey became strong enough to resist the bully's power over them, not only does it take away the joy of rubbing this person's wretchedness in their own face, but it also adds a potential threat to the bully's alpha status. It's in the bully's best interest to keep the victim a victim, to keep them both weak and compliant towards being punished for their weakness. No resistance and thus, no threat.

As to why this happens? My pet theory is that bullies absorb an absolutist, us vs. them worldview wherein those who do not oppress, are themselves oppressed - which is understandable, but also the same catalyst for a lot of bad shit throughout history.

If anything, Batman bullies bullies, or what some bullies grow up to become. There's a big difference between teaching dicks a lesson and stomping the new kid into the cement for shits and giggles.

edited 19th Feb '11 9:34:22 PM by DarkDecapodian

Dear Everyone who now hates me for being a bully:

I am sorry to hear that. But it seems a bit hypocritical that you say "schools should instill in kids a sense of justice" but then when I excercise the sense of justice I've got in me - I'm the bad guy.

To be fair, it's not like a run around looking for people to piss off - I just react. Aggressively.

Post Scriptum: I might not be the typical bully.

Post Post Scriptum: Huh, if you think about it, Batman is a large scale bully/

edited 19th Feb '11 9:28:14 PM by Pseudonym

Its good practice for life. Both the bullies and the bullied get to learn that life is a series of events where one person gets shafted and the other one gets to laugh.

Yet another reason why we need a better sense of justice in public schools. No one's judgment is completely sound, but I especially don't trust the judgment of children and teenagers on matters of ethics.

How can people say bullying is a good thing when evidence that it helps develop a warped perception of right and wrong is right in front of them?

What is this justice you speak of? An eye for an eye? Or "No, Billy, you mustn't stuff people into garbage cans. Please stay for half an hour after school." If it is the latter...

"Its good practice for life. Both the bullies and the bullied get to learn that life is a series of events where one person gets shafted and the other one gets to laugh." - Shrimpus

You really think we should be teaching kids to ACCEPT that, though? Kids should be taught that injustice should be CONFRONTED.

And snowfoxofdeath, I'm not referring to "eye for an eye." As for making them stay after school, it depends on the circumstances. First time doing this, or are too young and/or mentally challenged to know better? Yeah, keep them in school afterwards to go over why it's wrong with them. When it's an older student, or one who's done this before, that's when the stricter punishments should be dished out.

EDIT: Also...

"But it seems a bit hypocritical that you say "schools should instill in kids a sense of justice" but then when I excercise the sense of justice I've got in me - I'm the bad guy." - Pseudonym

The problem is that yours seems fairly warped, if you empty someone's bookbag contents into a shower and steal their ID for calling your friend a "lezzer."

edited 19th Feb '11 10:26:10 PM by neoYTPism

I still think the Tyler Durden method of Zenning your enemy out is pretty cool.

I didn't get in trouble by using that, and in the long run it was a better choice than retaliating.

And he didn't get hurt himself as far as I know, unless I accidentally read too much of Osamu Tezuka's Buddha at once (which I did) and accidentally ZENNED THE DUDE TO DEATH.

Still though, what about those not smart enough to know how to outsmart a bully? If the smart kids pick up defenses of their own against bullies, the dumb kids are pretty much in a corner, unless the smart kids generally come to their defense. (Somehow I doubt that would happen.)

While on some level it's good to teach people to defend themselves from bullies, it can't be relied on because there will always be ways for bullies to convince the school authorities that the one who fought back was the bully, even if the one who fought back did so in non-violent ways.

When I was younger I used to "fight back" against the bullies. I was violent and mean, even though I was smaller than them I still gained an advantage. My favorite tactic was "choke a bitch." Dozens and dozens of times I got in trouble for my violent response, while the people who initiated that response were hardly ever reprimanded. Several times it was even suggested that I was the bully, an irony that I didn't find particularly funny at the time.

But since they knew they weren't in real danger, my impotent rage was, to them, funny.  ^*

So yeah, count that as one anecdote (and one rather wise book) against fighting back.

It depends on the circumstances, really. In some cases, there is an advantage to be gained by fighting back, but for reasons like that and more it shouldn't be relied on.

In any case, it's simply not good enough that people can get away with lying about things like that. Quite frankly, it makes me doubt the judgement of teachers in general.

That sounds really familiar.

edited 19th Feb '11 11:19:36 PM by rmctagg09

I'm not talking about getting back at some douchebag who keeps harassing you, Im talking about people who make someones life a living hell for no fucking reason! This isnt justice, its just an encouragement to torment people who happen to be different from the group. And I dont mean "acts like an annoying prick", I mean "wears different clothes". So yeah, those of you who defend bullying as a social tool can just fucking drop dead.

Neo, I don't say i approve or that its good. Just that it is. If you are a rare human you get to learn how to change your circumstances.

So, Neo, you seem to support the way that American schools are already handling bullying.

Which, as a high school student, I can say is hugely ineffective. Then again, it might be because my school is especially pathetic. Apparently, they believe that hanging up posters that say "RESPECT" is actually helping. A student from the journalism class came and asked my geography class if we thought it worked and we lol'd.

I never thought that anyone could truly acknowledge their wrongdoing unless they were dished out the same thing. They could imagine how they would feel if they had been in the same situation, but I've never seen that to work unless the person was actually good on the inside. The more, er, "hardcore" bullies, I have observed, just don't give a shit.

So bullying only counts if it's bad? It'd be nice if you calm down and stop declaring that I should immediately die.

I'm just pointing out - not all bullies are the same.

But since they knew they weren't in real danger, my impotent rage was, to them, funny. * And here it has to be noted that men must be either pampered or crushed, because they can get revenge for small injuries but not for grievous ones. I got picked on more and more because they thought my angry reaction was funny. They didn't stop until I stopped reacting, at all.

So yeah, count that as one anecdote (and one rather wise book) against fighting back.

And yet, the exact opposite happened for me. They only stopped when I started fighting back violently, up till then I was a free target to attack for giggles with impunity.

^^ Wait...bullying can be good? I'd like a really good explanation for how this can be

Go ask Batman.

Isn't the whole point of Batman to just be a vehicle to get bad guys into the hands of actual law enforcement? He toes a lot of lines, but the point behind the whole thing isn't to just beat the tar out of people he doesn't like.

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I'm very surprised at the tone that some people have taken in this thread. There's almost a sense of pride in their bullying and/or retaliation. Violence is nothing to be proud of, nor to "show off" - something I hope you will learn as you age.

Fighting back in the heat of the moment, just enough to end the fight is defensive. A calculated act of violence after the fact is called revenge. Once you can identify between the two you should be able to recognise that a lot of what has been said here is the latter. The fact that pride can be taken it is disturbing to me.

As for the roles of schools and teachers. I want to say I wish there was more that could be done by them to protect victims of bullying, but am held back by the lack of rights that teachers have these days in order to do so.

edited 23rd Feb '11 11:57:39 AM by LadyJustice

No amount of moralistic finger-wagging can compete with the feeling of striking back against those who would prey on you.

Revenge is awesome.

'nuff said

Most of the times anyway.

If you do it right. There's something very fun about the idea that someone is afraid of you.