Christian tropers, join together!

Losing Our Way.

All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

You know the scene in the Last Battle(Chronicles Of Narnia) where the dwarves still think they are in a stable even though they're in a meadow? And there's nothing that can be done to get them out of the delusion? I wonder if some people in hell would be like that, with it self inflicted.

That has always made a lot of sense to me because I've seen things work that way in life. Some people who (objectively) have a lot are only thinking of lack while some who have little can make things out of stuff... or even the way our perceptions change in life. When I was a kid, Christmas was a thing that made me happy and excited for a solid month, now I think of it as the capitalist-yuppie "holiday" of cheese-crap that I can't afford and don't need and want over with as soon as possible. The mentality of you can be surrounded by beauty and just not see it makes even more sense to me when I look back on my depression-cycles. Sometimes, I try to kick myself out of them by mentally listing what is going right in my life - the good things I have, the fact that people don't seem to see me nearly as bad I perceive myself to me. As I said in some other topic (I think in Writer's Block, advice to someone looking to write the condition) is that depression warps everything and you can objectively know "life is good" and "you are good" but NOT see it at the time because something has hijacked you and made everything gray.

I certainly hope that Mr. Lewis didn't mean "depression" by his dwarves, because depression isn't (or shouldn't be) a sin, since it's a biochemical and/or complex psych condition, but the "sinners can be in paradise and refuse to see it" does speak to me as ringing of truth because I've experienced warping of perceptions in real life - and on an all-too-frequent basis.

In which I attempt to be a writer.

It was not about depression. The dwarves were just way too cynical due to being burned by the earlier events of the story and wouldn't join either side. So, they got stuck in their own limbo?

Dear American Atheist Society:

Forcing your beliefs on someone is not a good thing, no matter what belief system or lack thereof you're forcing. Yes, fundies blabbering about fire and brimstone need to be stopped, but you're being every bit as bad as them right now. What's the difference between a billboard shouting at people that they'll go to Hell and a billboard shouting at people who believe in "fairy tales", really?

Signed, a proud believer in "fairy tales".

edited 2nd Dec '14 3:04:09 PM by BaffleBlend

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer

One of those is a threat.

And the other's a passive-aggressive snub-nosed holier-than-thou proclamation, complete with "Don't Like? Don't Read!".

I'm not defending either billboard, mind you. But both of them seem to me like the same level of psychological attack.

edited 2nd Dec '14 7:13:25 PM by BaffleBlend

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer

Oh, I don't find the atheist billboard good either. But there is a difference between being a condescending douchebag and making threats of torture.

Calling someone stupid versus calling someone evil is not the same thing. Neither is nice but latter is potentially more dangerous.

It's snot-nosed potshots like that that make us want to call them evil. I'd rather side with a lunatic than a dick.

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer

I'm sorry, I know this is way out of perspective for me. If the words "fairy tale" come up, I go on the defensive. My subconscious screams, "now it's war".

edited 2nd Dec '14 7:28:31 PM by BaffleBlend

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer

To me it just signals that the speaker is not interested in being respectful and that it's not worth my time to give them the courtesy of paying attention.

I'm a proud defender of ACTUAL fairy tales. As in, I believe that metaphor, symbol, fiction and imagination in general are POWERFUL. They are so powerful that some people treat imagination like they do guns: "Fine to have in my hand, but I don't trust it in the hands of others." I mean, I have gleaned more capital-T TRUTH from fiction-reading, movies, games, etc. than I'm sure I ever have from this whole, overrated "reality" thing that everyone's so obsessed with. Keep your physical reality. I like my tales of heroes and faeries. They inspire me to be brave.

In other words, the words "fairy tales" used in a snide context annoys me on two levels. One is the obvious insult level, the other is "Dammit, people don't have any respect for imagination and symbol anymore, do they? What do they teach them in those schools?" And then I realize I'm far too young to be a curmudgeon or a white-haired old witch imparting the secrets of magic... In any case, it's a bitter reminder that "My favorite literature-genre and the thing I choose to write in will never be respected, will it?"

As for passive aggressive public snipes.... This is one of the many reasons why I've started disliking Christmas. Most of my reason has to do with being poor and having some bad memories of one year, but the "increasing passive aggressive pissing contest between a growing minority and a once powerful set of society who is losing their power" that goes on nowadays, ugh.

As for what was said about threats vs. calling people stupid... What is worse depends on which side you are on, I suppose. I fail to see how Hellfire is an actual threat toward people who don't believe in it. I'm pretty sure I've had people threaten me with it in online conversation because of my Hippie-ness / "not the right kind of Christian" status and I just laughed at them and went on my merry way. You can't control people with something they don't see as a reality.

It does become something of a "threat" if you analyze it closely and conclude that telling someone they're going to Hell (in the angry way, without "but I want to save you because I have this unfortunate belief that even I don't like") is a way of dehumanizing them a bit. Then again, it's not much more dehumanizing than telling someone they're stupid and holding back some kind of science-based utopia and/or Humanity would be in a better state if people like you didn't exist / how you see the world never existed.

Eh. I just want people to realize that ALL OF Humanity Is Insane and that the things that make sense to someone at any given time of their lives are not going to make sense to others.

Say "Happy Holidays" to include everyone you see on the street, and if someone would be happier if you wished them a "Happy Festivus," wish them that. Try to ignore smug billboards. Children are going to fight.

In which I attempt to be a writer.

I think I just found my new favorite line.

And I think I just found my new other favorite line.

edited 3rd Dec '14 1:36:08 AM by chaosconsortium

The reason I have so much trouble justifying my faith to others in one sentence. They assume I want them to go to Hell, rather than understanding that I'm trying to get them not to.

"Don't step on that minefield without proper equipment."
"Was that a threat? You want me to get blown up, don't you? If you're such an expert, why don't you walk over it?"

edited 3rd Dec '14 3:42:12 AM by BaffleBlend

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer

Whose Side Are You On?

All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

^^ Indeed. Calling "you're going to hell for that" a threat implies that the person saying it has the ability (and/or the ability and desire) to make it happen.

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

At worst, you could kill their body. Not throw them in hell also! Of course we like fiction, why else would we be on tvtropes?

Unfortunately, the idea of Hell in our culture comes with moral implications. Most of us are raised with the idea of "good people go to heaven, bad people go to hell" and it's actually quite eye-opening when someone discovers serious Protestantism and learns that say, the Baptists, for instance, believe we're all "bad people" and that Hell is default and we need to reach up and grab a nail-pierced hand to bring us up out of that fate.

People can swear up and down "It's not a moral judgement, I'm just telling you that the stove is hot" and sincerely mean it and because of culture, people are going to register "You think I'm worse than Hitler, don't you?" There's just no getting around it. Works are better than "faith" for our society and we have ideas about fairness.

I felt a bit triggered last night reading some article about Rob Bell and seeing the comments regarding it by Fundies using clobber-scriptures and talking about how people who aren't into Hell aren't "real Christians" and are going there. Despite the fact that I used to think that way, Now my brain is triggered into real fears and traumas because I'm worried "What if they're right and we really are living under a Cthullu-like tyrant who enjoys chucking anyone who is the least bit off in belief into fire forever?" I've done all the rituals, the "magic prayer" and belief in the right things and whatnot, but I decided I just didn't like the idea of Hell, so maybe I'm going there...

Hell, for me, is just something that doesn't make a lot of sense anymore in the traditional, Dante-esque or Looney Toons way. What makes sense to me is "the door is locked from the inside for as long as someone wants to keep it locked," but the idea of a God who wants you to call "him" "Father" and is supposed to be Love saying "Nope, you didn't see me clearly in life / was born in the wrong country / rejected me because of your abusive family / believed most of the right things but got details wrong, into the torture-pit you go!" just makes 0 sense. It's to the point where if I find out that Jesus really didn't die for EVERYONE, I feel like giving God the finger and doing solidarity with Humanity on this one. In fact, I think it's the only moral thing for any of us to do if, indeed, the door is not locked from the inside and no one bothers to knock.

It's taken me a long time to feel this way. And I still fear "What if I'm wrong? What if Calvinist cosmic tyranny is the thing and I'm not brave enough to have a moment of solidarity with Humanity?"

—- Of course, I also feel like "What if having faith in anything at all makes me a stupid sap who's holding back Science-Topia?" and "What if I'm a cosmic-scar on spacetime because I was supposed to succeede in the Air Force, go to war and die / die in that falling accident / die from the complication I had at my birth?" "What if I'm a mook in my story rather than the hero?" "What if there is an alternate universe in which I am a cat?" etc. etc.

Eh, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm someone whose thought a lot about the topic of Hell and found it doesn't make a lot of sense to what I think is Right. I've someone whose been in the place where I understand personally how most believers in the concept see it as a matter of not touching hot stoves and not driving over cliffs rather than a moral judgement, but if it still doesn't makes sense to some of us who've been in that place, it's gong to make even less sense to people who never have been or who've thrown the baby out with the bathwater and rejected Christianity as a whole.

And, because of our culture, there really is no way to make "don't go into the minefield" NOT sound like "You're worse than Hitler" to most.

In which I attempt to be a writer.

I wanted to ask something seriously here:

Has anyone seen a possessed person? If you did, how was the experiemce?

Have you forgotten the face of your father, troper?

I haven't, and I'm not really sure about the whole "demons" thing, but I have had experiences that have lead me to believe that ancient people were probably talking about mental illness and things they've observed in the mentally ill when assigning "demons" or "spirits" to things.

I've had panic/anger attacks where I almost felt like I was trapped inside myself and my screaming, ranting, crying body was running on automatic and I couldn't stop it. I was all-me inside, no demon, but I can definitely imagine someone thinking I was possessed when in that kind of state.

In which I attempt to be a writer.

Called By Name.

All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

I know I've seen it theorized that possessed people are/were just mentally ill, but there are a few things that make me doubt that.

For one, people have actually known about mental illness for quite a long time. In the Bible, itself, David pretends to be insane in 1 Samuel, which was written ~700 to 900 years before Jesus, give or take. Not to mention Hippocrates wrote and taught about mental illness. While our current understanding of psychology is relatively new, people knew about mental illness quite some time before Christ.

Then there are some verses that would just be nonsensical unless you somehow take them symbolically. For example, the part where Legion asks Jesus to cast them into a herd of swine. And Jesus does it.

I've seen conflicting ideas about whether demons still possess people these days or not. For example, I've seen people point to Zechariah 13:2, which mentions God casting out the prophets and the unclean spirit from the land, and saying that since we live in a time without prophets, then there are no demons to cast out, either. Similarly, I've heard that demons were only allowed to possess people while Jesus and the apostles (A Good Name for a Rock Band, anyone?) were around because if no one had the authority to cast out demons after the apostles were gone, then why would God allow demons to possess people without giving us anyone to cast them out?

Of course, there are definitely sects of Christianity that believe demons still do possess people. But even if they're right, Christians are immune to possession because when you're filled with the Holy Spirit, no other spirit will be allowed inside you.

edited 4th Dec '14 4:58:03 AM by FingerPuppet

I read on some blog somewhere that the casting out of the Legion is thought by some scholars to, in fact, be symbolic - that is, a political allegory with the pigs representing Roman occupiers... I forget what the whole theory was, but it does actually make sense to me that the story could be a New Testament equivalent of a political cartoon.

I once got into a rip-roaring fight about that story with an atheist-commentator on a Christian blogspace. He was annoying because he refused to listen to me at all and kept asking me to prove things actually existed to him before I was apparently allowed to have an opinion. I brought up the political-satire theory of that story, first of all, saying I thought it was interesting. I then went on to casually share my theory about mental illness being classed as "evil spirits" and how I personally thought - whatever that story means, political, literal, symbolic, whatever - that it personally speaks to me about themes of caring and apathy — that we see Jesus doing the brave thing and actually reaching out to help the crazy man whom everyone is afraid of while everyone else obviously cares more about pigs than the health and well-being of a human they've already written off.

I basically said "That's how it feels that mentally ill people are treated today, that more people care more about profits and saving money than actually helping any of us." The guy I was back and forthing with whined that Jesus was evil because he destroyed an innocent pig-farmer's livelihood. I told him "You're kind of proving my point here." (Because, presumably, the farmer can rebuild, acquire or breed more pigs, also it was the evil spirits that did the slaughtering, not Jesus, while, you know, the demon-plauged man who had no other help finally is able to begin to live a decent life again). The guy whined more "But that was the pig-farmer's property!" and when I said "Again, my point," he ...

... switched to a tactic of demanding that I prove to him, scientifically, that demons are real and implied I was stupid for believing in them when I said before and again that I didn't, and thought of them as connected to mental illness or that the story might have been a political thing. And then, when he kept on insisting that my LITERARY SYMBOLISM opinon and WHAT I TAKE FROM A STORY ON A PERSONAL LEVEL was wrong, wrong wrong because I was nothing but a stupid believer who needed to show him that demons were physically real, I just left him alone to stew in his crapped pants.

I later talked with an online friend of mine who said he knew people like that in real life : People who have to be right about everything and who do not get the concept of metaphor and gleaning various meanings from a story.

... Having since seen Guardians Of The Galaxy, a part of me wonders if I was arguing with Drax.

In which I attempt to be a writer.

Interesting mental illness this one, gives super strength, you speak perfectly in a language you (possibly) never heard before, speak with different voice tones (nothing special about this, I admit) and this mental illness give access to knowledge you couldn't possibly possess.

Have you forgotten the face of your father, troper?

The only one's I've had experience with are the Worley cultists, who believed that every imaginable problem to occur was due to demonic possession (even stupidly inane things like car trouble).

To say the least, their meetings played on mass hysteria to its fullest possible extent. Once a few key regulars in the crowd started their act eventually almost everyone else trickled into it and those that didn't were singled out as being possessed by extra-powerful demon generals/hordes etc etc by the primary speaker (accented usually by an old lady who would point and scream at them ala Donald Sutherland ).