Of Death threats and Dickwolves

Yes, often the blame the victim card is still played in terms of investigating and trying cases of rape. And on the second part, it's that because we talk about stranger rape as being the only rape, that we miss all the familial rape that really does happen, and a lot of times, that gets downplayed (although to be fair, over the last few years things have gotten a lot better on that regard, look at the campaign against date rape you see on college campuses for example)

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@loni Is date rape supposed to be romantic?

Well let's ignore that false premise, using our knowledge that most rape is between family members or those that are like family taking advantage, how would we stop such a thing before it occurs? How do we get a rapist to not be one is my question.

Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?

No, the date rape was in response to your 'familial rape' question.

But seriously, I'm talking about people who would subconsciously think "I bought her dinner and it was expensive, and she still didn't sleep with me. The frigid bitch." Or less obviously "I did all the romantic things girls are supposed to like, why does she still not want to go out with me?"

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@Loni: Well that makes a lot more sense When you use date rape your referring to anything from "I bought you dinner, you owe me this." To actually drugging someone or impairing them in some way? I'd still say no, I've never heard of someone defending forced intercourse and the idea of impaired consent being okay is dying out as well.

As a society we've basically said "If someone can't or hasn't consented that they want to have sex with you, you're in the wrong." I don't know how much farther we can bring this concept without putting in rape week or something. Even my grade 9 health class talked about why rape is wrong.

edited 14th Feb '11 9:50:59 PM by thatguythere47

Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?

Everyone agrees that rape is wrong, yes, but enforcing that is still not perfect.

If our sex education is so great, why are there still things like girls being raped by sports players and that sort of thing? People still blame the victim by saying "She went home with thy guy, that means she consented" and "What did she think was going to happen?"

Don't get me wrong, our current society is loads better than others in past and present. But it's not perfect.

edited 14th Feb '11 9:55:54 PM by LoniJay

Be not afraid...

I'd hate to play fallacy wars, but perfection solution fallacy. We will never get rid of rape and there will always be assholes who feel entitled to something they "bought." The solution isn't making people scared to even bring up anything related to rape, that's probably the worst thing possible. If we cannot talk about rape and yes, even joke about it how can we ever expect victims to move on? If rape is thought of as this ultimate evil from which you can never recover, or something so traumatic that you can never be reminded of it without becoming suicidal or distraught, how are you supposed to function in society?

Erg, it's 1 AM over here so I think that's night for me. I'll check back in the morning.

Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?

Well, you were the one who said "As a society, there is nothing more we can do to discourage rapists". I was just pointing out that, yes, there is more we can do.

Putting rape in a corner and never talking about it isn't the solution, no. But neither is trivialising it.

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@Karmakin:

Unfortunately gamer culture in general tends to react in a predictable way to any perceived attacks - fling raw mockery at the target until it goes away. When the target is someone talking crazy like Jack Thompson, then they come out ahead. However when the target is rape victims being upset about rape, it requires more tact to avoid being hugely insensitive dicks. PA didn't even come close to meeting the grade this time.

edited 14th Feb '11 10:34:17 PM by TrapperZoid

Surely whether a shirt is perceived as threatening or not depends on the imagery on the shirt?

• LOL rape + hentai image of someone getting violated = Squick
• LOL rape + image of Companion Cube getting abused in a comical way (covered in smooches) = Hilarious
• Niggers in a bad position + Klansman-masks and nooses = Squick
• African Americans sitting on a throne + Klansmen sitting at their feet trying to figure out how to make a noose (with a manual) and getting stuck in the rope = Hilarious

Having seen the Dickwolves shirt, it is about as offensive as a sports shirt (e.g. "not"). It would have been offensive if it had shown a man being violated by dickwolves and featuring deriding words - which it does not.

(Also, I think someone should make a shirt featuring Dick Wolf's head superceded with the words "Here, have a Dick Wolf" and wear it to a convention )

"That said, as I've mentioned before, apart from the helmet, he's not exactly bad looking, if a bit...blood-drenched." - juancarlos

And what we should do as a society is to discourage this notion, and make it clear that this is the wrong thing to do. Telling people they should just get over their trauma doesn't help anything.

Besides, we still live in a world where billions of people live in countries where marital rape isn't considered a crime, the majority of US states consider it a lesser a crime and even in nations where it is a crime, police are less likely to investigate when the accused rapist is a spouse or boyfriend.

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There were words on the shirt as well, you know.

Flip it around - why would someone want to wear the shirt? If it is for any other reason than "Dickwolves" being a funny word, then there is an additional meaning to choosing to wear that shirt.

edited 15th Feb '11 12:50:58 AM by TrapperZoid

Most people who wear it probably see it as a statement of "Take that, oppressors of free speech! We'll say and wear whatever we want, even if it offends you!"

edited 15th Feb '11 12:55:34 AM by LoniJay

Be not afraid...

That is the reason I've seen most commonly, except it's based on a furphy. To me, what it is actually saying is "How dare you speak up about how this joke made you upset! You aren't one of us and you should shut up". It might have its roots in supporting raw artistic expression, but it's got some strong anti free speech tones in terms of chilling criticism.

edited 15th Feb '11 1:45:57 AM by TrapperZoid

Hi, thanks so much for pointing out my article and including it in your very interesting discussion here. I have edited and updated the post to add in specifically that rape is unlike terrorism because the rapist does not (always) have an explicit message or demand (sent to the primary target) like a terrorist.

On the topic of whether we are doing everything possible to prevent rape; I think that we are not. It is true that you might go to jail for committing rape, but the conviction rates are so low that one's chance of getting away with it are quite high. Furthermore, punishment is not the only way to stop rape.

This article "rape-prone vs rape-free campus cultures" (Behind a pay wall) describes a number of feature that make rape unacceptable and practically absent within 95 band and tribal societies. It turns out that rape-prone cultures are actually rare in this study sample (17%) and rape-free cultures more common (47%). Note: rape-free is misleading because the author defines "rape-free" as a culture where rape is rare or uncommon rather than non-existent. I think someone transcribed the article here.

edited 15th Feb '11 3:46:01 AM by Bakka

But they are, unfortunately, something the individual suffering from them needs to learn to deal with. We cannot afford as a society to ban all shock humor out of fear of pushing someone's buttons. The whole point of shock humor is to push people's buttons.

Since we seem to still be on the rape culture topic despite the attempt to split it off, I'll agree that we could be doing more as a society to discourage the assumptions that lead to situations like date rape, party rape, family member rape, and the like. The problem that I see with the Penny Arcade flap is that there is a group of people out there who have taken this notion so far as to violently suppress any speech they see as being even remotely associated with the topic. They are not helping their cause or their public image by doing so.

edited 15th Feb '11 6:23:44 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

This link from Iron Curtain was an interesting read, though if I follow the definition used there, i.e. rape culture means worsening the suffering of those rapes, I call into question if the things that usually are described as "rape culture" actually ARE "rape culture".

I think that the constant reinforcement that rape is the worst thing that can happen, ever, is increasing the fear about rape and with the fear the impact increases when it actually happens. Like terrorism, the whole thing only works if we let it work.

Which would lead to the hilariously ironic conclusion, that complaining about rape culture is a part of rape culture, even the major part!

[edit]
I think the problem with the escalating discussion is the tone used for it. Talking like those two in the beginning of this thread is not a got way to convince an artist he needs to apologize. Though I can't say it was handled perfectly from the side of Penny Arcade as well...

edited 15th Feb '11 6:29:22 AM by Uchuujinsan

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Actually, no. Hypersensitivity is something people need to learn to deal with. PTSD is a clinical medical condition that requires therapy to deal with. The sufferer can't control or predict is what is going to trigger them, and lack of support from others has been known to just make it worse. And the first step to recovery generally involves creating a safe environment free from triggers, so you can gradually deal with them in a controlled manner.

Now, I'm not saying the people who complained about the original comic had PTSD (I don't think Penny Arcade would be the best thing to read for someone who actually does) - the whole thing looks to me as if hypersensitive critics collided with Penny Arcade being insensitive - but you're dismissing a serious mental illness here.

edited 15th Feb '11 7:48:08 AM by Drakyndra

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I meant what I said. Each person is responsible for his/her own responses to stimuli. If someone genuinely suffers from PTSD, then it is the responsibility of that person and/or those who care for him to properly manage their environment so as to allow that person to function. It means not recklessly exposing oneself to things that might set one off.

In the case of a webcomic like PA, the simple solution is not to read it. Similarly, the brouhaha over it that spawned in the blogosphere can be avoided by sensitive individuals through an equally simple method.

However, if one ventures out into the wilds of society while suffering from a hypersensitivity condition, one is responsible for one's own behavior as a result. If I have a mortal fear of taxi cabs, I would be advised not to walk through the streets of Manhattan. I don't have the right to demand they stop their trade in service of my problem.

Yes, I get it. You [general you] got raped. I'm sorry, terrible thing. You do not have the right to demand that I censor my publicly offered speech to keep you from feeling bad.

edited 15th Feb '11 7:59:33 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

I enjoyed your blog post, Bakka. It's always interesting to read different views on topics like this!

"On the topic of whether we are doing everything possible to prevent rape; I think that we are not. It is true that you might go to jail for committing rape, but the conviction rates are so low that one's chance of getting away with it are quite high. Furthermore, punishment is not the only way to stop rape." Just because the conviction rate is low, doesn't mean that the chance of getting away with rape is high. I have not much insight in the American laws nor courts, so I can't really say I can disprove you. I think the main problem is the definition of "Rape" as well as evidence. Is it rape if a person has sex with a drunk person that is (during the act at least) consent with it and then regrets it afterwards? I believe this is a grey area and my personal opinion on it is that it's not rape, but that's just me.

A sex-crime in the alley will probably have physical evidence both on the victim and the place where the crime happened. A person whom has been raped/had sex while he/she is drunk or Unconscious will most likely not have any evidence to prove that rape actually happened. I'm sure that if there are any statistics on it, it would show that the conviction rates for people that has forcefully raped someone is much higher than ones for people who has raped/had sex with someone during a drunken state or unconscious state.

I think that the problems is that rape is usually difficult subjects in courts, rather than the presence of a rape culture. Again, it's just my personal opinions and thoughts, so I'm not going to pretend that I can actually back anything of this up.

Also, interesting points there, Uchuujinsan. I mentioned earlier in another post that another reason might be that not all women are aware that you are perfectly capable of reaching a climax during rape, no matter how disgusted or frightened you are. This probably contributes to the shame and fear that the victims feel, although it is of course not the sole contributor to it.

edited 15th Feb '11 10:13:46 AM by Efrath

conviction rates are low because it is normally hard to prove. This is not rape culture, this is an unfortunate reality. If there is no proof of the act, how can we convict someone? The issue of rape kits taking forever to be processed is something that needs to be addressed but the only thing I can see to speed up the process is more facilities and more people working on it, which in turn requires more money and good luck with that.

edited 15th Feb '11 10:21:41 AM by thatguythere47

Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?

And you don't think it's part of rape culture that many jurisdictions are unwilling to devote the money and manpower necessary to bring rapists to justice? You don't think that's a sign that rape is seen as a less crucial crime than, say, drug use?

I see a group of people stretched far too thin. Don't kid yourself, the amount of time it takes to properly do forensic sciencey stuff is immense, and when they get new cases every day, there is going to be things left out. That's not society not caring, it's a lack of people in the forensic field.

Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?

Folks, we don't need two threads in OTC on rape culture in general. Discussions here should stick to the PA issue.

edited 15th Feb '11 11:26:08 AM by Meeble

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We're totally open to ideas on how to better gather evidence that tends to disappear long before the police report is even made and prove that someone didn't consent.

We all want to bring rapists to justice, but the fact remains that unless you have a security camera showing a woman struggling or something, you're asking for evidence that doesn't really exist. Even if social cues make it clear to the jury that the defendant is probably a rapist and the victim was unwilling, they can't convict him without shitting on the very legal structures that make our system preferable to "Nobleman wants you to die."

edited 15th Feb '11 12:53:52 PM by Pykrete