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"Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior" lol:

 126 Jack Mackerel, Sun, 16th Jan '11 1:10:23 AM from SOME OBSCURE MEDIA
Yeah, it's a bit extreme.

Just wait until the subject of beating their childrens ass comes up.....I mean oopsie xD

Well, really, depends on the area. Southern blacks (and white) obviously do.
 127 R Labs, Sun, 16th Jan '11 6:48:59 AM from cat planet!
So the article completely misrepresented her by posting the parts of the book she herself said were wrong later on without saying they were facetious at all? And editing them and adding the title to make her look worse? And now she's getting death threats?

I don't really know what to say about this. Other than the obvious criticism of how pitiful the media is.

And for something more related to the topic of the article (ie a useless anecdote): I go to a magnet high school, and a very large number of the Asians at the school (now almost more than half of the school) complain about "Asian parenting". While the people that complain the most about this tend to make the best grades, I've noticed that the people that tend to be most successful (Science fair winners, sysadmins, people that try cool science projects because they feel like it) have much laxer parents. That sort of parenting style was fine for forcing good grades and extracurriculars out of kids for getting into the magnet school, but when it came to stuff that was more important than grades many of the people with extremely harsh parents honestly couldn't have cared less about science.

edited 16th Jan '11 6:54:55 AM by RLabs

 128 wuggles, Sun, 16th Jan '11 11:54:26 AM from Miami, FL Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
[up] Well, IIRC, I saw somewhere that in China they have aproblem like that. People are passing all the tests very well and more than Americans but they don't have a whole lot of people coming up with new creative ideas (like Facebook or something), because in America there is more choice.

edited 16th Jan '11 11:54:53 AM by wuggles

 129 Erock, Sun, 16th Jan '11 6:11:04 PM from Toronto
Proud Canadian
[up]By forcing your kids to focus on violin/piano and math and science you quash any chance of your kids really being part of the creative class or being an entrepenuer or artist. While all cultures have the parents who want kids with stable jobs, Asian and African parents grow up in a culture without the individualistic aspects that the Western (read: white) countries have.
If you don't like a single Frank Ocean song, you have no soul.
 130 Cojuanco, Sun, 16th Jan '11 6:15:01 PM from Riverside, CA, US
Student
[up]Which stems from the fact that in those cultures, your children were your Social Security check - without them, you'd be destitute. Ergo, you'd want them to do what everyone else is doing, and getting a high rank in an (exam-determined) bureaucratic post or cognate of the same. Basically, it's because in those areas, until recently (and even today in some places) the only social safety net you had were relatives with good jobs, which tended to be those who followed the rules and did everything society told them to do.

I'm a Chinese art major living in America, though I lived in China for half my life.

They do encourage art. In fact, art was a required class for everyone to take back in elementary school. I have no idea what happens to it afterward, I was only in the advanced-everything class for two years before it got banned and I came to America. Violin is the only classical-sounding instrument that doesn't cost a fortune, unlike the piano. And since it's China, everyone values competition like it's the only thing that matters. Parents throw their kids into classes that everyone else is taking just to prove that they're better. Obviously, everyone can't be better than everyone else at the same things. However, I think it's a pretty recent phenomenon, what with the whole One-Child policy crap. Before, it was pretty much just "okay you suck so I'm gonna put everything I have into the next kid that comes after you, and if they suck too, then I'll just get myself another one. By the way, this is just in urban places. Most people living in rural areas never actually get enough education to speak half-intelligible Mandarin. Anyway, I went off topic. What I was saying about music and drawing: you learn the techniques, but no one ever teaches you anything beyond that. In America, success in art is about being different and unique from everything anyone's ever seen before. In China, success in art is about imitating another artist perfectly.

tl;dr - Communists like conformity.

edited 19th Jan '11 5:21:49 PM by theCoelacanth

 132 darksidevoid, Wed, 19th Jan '11 5:50:25 PM from Palace of Friendship Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Everyone's Friend
So the article completely misrepresented her by posting the parts of the book she herself said were wrong later on without saying they were facetious at all? And editing them and adding the title to make her look worse?
What? No, that was her BS excuse to save face when it became apparent her views were too extreme for some people. The first article that was linked was written by her personally.

Also, a relevant and sometimes humorous blog post that makes some good points.
"I have a very terrible announcement to make to you all today. The world is coming to an end very, very soon."
I dunno. Try changing the editorial headline to "My recovery from Chinese Mother Syndrome" and the tone changes.
Don't just tell us the facts; tell us the memes, tell us the archetypes, tell us the catchy ideas and symbolic roles that get planted in pe
 134 Erock, Wed, 19th Jan '11 6:25:53 PM from Toronto
Proud Canadian
[up][up][up]That confirmed what I thought of the whole business.

[up][up]That article perfectly describes my views on the whole kid-raising argument.
If you don't like a single Frank Ocean song, you have no soul.
Oh gawd.

This shitstorm.

For what it's worth, here is Prof. Chua's responses to various questions from readers.

IIRC she didn't choose that title for the first WSJ article, and it implies something she didn't. In fact, her book's freakin' front cover implies differently.
It Just Bugs Me! - a place to discuss media, real life, and other topics.
 136 Mark Von Lewis, Wed, 19th Jan '11 8:53:19 PM from Somewhere in Time Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
KCCO
Damn, if my mom acted like her, I'd dump her ass in the woods when it came time to find her a nursing home. But then again I'm a petty, spiteful, asshole like that.

There's pushing your kid to achieve, and being a draconian bitch. Which is what that so-called mother is.
Run the red, won't stop at night, I don't care for traffic lights.
 137 darksidevoid, Wed, 19th Jan '11 10:08:21 PM from Palace of Friendship Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Everyone's Friend
[up][up]"IIRC she didn't choose that title for the first WSJ article, and it implies something she didn't. In fact, her book's freakin' front cover implies differently"

Mmmmm, not quite. The "Humbled by a Thirteen-Year Old" bit of the subtitle actually refers to the fact that her daughter 'rebelled' by getting Chua to switch her focus from forcing her daughter to 'excel' at playing the violin to forcing her daughter to 'excel' at playing tennis, a sport which her 13-year old daughter valued for its own sake. Note that Chua changed absolutely nothing about her parenting, merely shifted her attention to a different lofty, unreasonable goal for her children. I'm more than willing to bet that her mother's constant criticism and shaming will rip the poor girl's love of tennis to shreds, given time.

That is the 'independence' Chua refers to in her little Q&A session. 'Independence', because standing up to one's parent just once in an effort to claim some small amount of control over one's life qualifies as independence. 'Independence', because managing to grow up at least semi-happy and successful in spite of her mother's screeching having destroyed her self-worth will be a miracle.

Re: Child Abuse: People who grow up in households in which they are constantly denied parental approval have an obvious tendency to bear the psychological scars of such treatment later in life, always believing that their parents disapprove of the job they're doing, no matter how phenomenally well they're actually doing, and even if the parents have mellowed out over time and actually do approve of their children. Recipe for success? Maybe, by a certain standard. Recipe for happiness? Absolutely not.

By the way, the fact she says that she didn't choose the title of the article means next to nothing. As a statement, that could still be true even if she merely gave input, just as long as she, herself did not choose the exact wording. That entire Q&A reads like very clear and very fast backpedaling.

edited 19th Jan '11 10:16:18 PM by darksidevoid

"I have a very terrible announcement to make to you all today. The world is coming to an end very, very soon."
 138 drunkscriblerian, Wed, 19th Jan '11 10:11:58 PM from Castle Geekhaven Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
@darksidevoid: glad I'm not the only one to see it that way.

Hell, the existence of the second article causes me to lose what respect I had for that woman. If you're going to espouse a radical opinion, hold it through a little criticism or don't say it in the first place.
If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed.

~Cora M. Strayer~
Unchanging Avatar.
She let her switch to tennis? That's her big concession? There are so many things wrong with this, it's not even funny. And...my respect for this woman has evaporated completely. To everyone on this thread: please, please, please don't buy her book. The publicity she's gotten can't be helping her horribly and unforgivably emotionally abused and mistreated unfortunate children.
Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
 140 Cojuanco, Wed, 19th Jan '11 10:42:39 PM from Riverside, CA, US
Student
I experienced a milder form of this (partly because I have grandparents who actually came from the Old Country, and knew how shit actually went down, not the sanitized, Prussianized stereotype my parents' generation tries to make it out to be, and partly because we're nowhere near rich enough to afford all that puta would do).

It's, IMO, a social climbing thing - they're trying to get the approval of wealthy WASP society, so they overcompensate, like the sterotypical parvenu. In part it's an unhealthy reaction to the discrimination even model minorities face in American society, some subtle, others much less so. People like the puta Chua try so hard to live up to what they think WASP "society" looks like that they're willing to sacrifice actual, un-prepackaged happiness to do it.

 141 Sparkysharps, Wed, 19th Jan '11 10:49:56 PM from Portland, OR
Professional Nerd
Re: Child Abuse: People who grow up in households in which they are constantly denied parental approval have an obvious tendency to bear the psychological scars of such treatment later in life, always believing that their parents disapprove of the job they're doing, no matter how phenomenally well they're actually doing, and even if the parents have mellowed out over time and actually do approve of their children. Recipe for success? Maybe, by a certain standard. Recipe for happiness? Absolutely not.

Glad I'm not the only one to see the article as "Look at me try to justify emotionally abusing my children! Aren't I awesome?" Seriously, some of the little examples of how she's such a Super Special Awesome parent are downright triggering.

(As for the success thing, most research I've read about authoritarian parenting indicates that the kids don't usually do any better in school than they would under authoritative parenting and often have difficulties with socializing and depression. Yep, real plan for success there.)
"If there's a hole, it's a man's job to thrust into it!"
Ryoma Nagare, New Getter Robo
 142 Cojuanco, Wed, 19th Jan '11 10:56:11 PM from Riverside, CA, US
Student
[up]Like I said, a lot of it is plain social climbing. Sort of like Stalin's Five-Year Plans, except on the micro level. Like Stalin's initiatives, it may work... but at the cost of serious problems which come up later.

I a way, I'm lucky that my parents were more Gomulka/Chiang than Stalin... I know some people who have cracked under this style of parenting. They're successful academically, sure. But they have this empty look in their eyes, as if they're zombies in a sense.

edited 19th Jan '11 10:59:55 PM by Cojuanco

 143 Wicked 223, Thu, 20th Jan '11 5:38:21 AM from Death Star in the forest
I think I'd like to see some of this research, 'cause I really doubt that she's actually that abusive toward her children.
You can't even write racist abuse in excrement on somebody's car without the politically correct brigade jumping down your throat!
 144 Chagen 46, Thu, 20th Jan '11 6:05:38 AM from I don't really know
Why are all you guys pulling the "C Hild Abuse" card?

My dad pushes school and grades hard like this, and I don't feel abused at all.
"Who wants to hear about good stuff when the bottom of the abyss of human failure that you know doesn't exist is so much greater?"-Wraith
My mind is my own.
Child is not property of parent.
Is what is morally good commanded by god because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by god?
 146 Chagen 46, Thu, 20th Jan '11 6:27:05 AM from I don't really know
I'll have to ask my dad what he thinks of that. I don't think he pushes grades and stuff this hard, but he does make it a large priority.
"Who wants to hear about good stuff when the bottom of the abyss of human failure that you know doesn't exist is so much greater?"-Wraith
Unchanging Avatar.
Emotional abuse, not physical. From what we see, that mother constantly belittles her children, who probably aren't even great at the things she makes them pursue. But Chua doesn't care about that, and indubitably plays cards like "I'm your mother, so I know what's best for you, " "don't you want to be X?" and just straight orders around her children. And you know what? Her kids may get into Ivy League schools. They may make good marriages (I suspect she's pretty sexist too). But they won't be happy, and at least one of them will crash and burn in grad school because of her.

edited 20th Jan '11 8:30:59 AM by Ultrayellow

Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
 148 Major Tom, Thu, 20th Jan '11 8:41:22 AM Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Eye'm the cutest!
^ That crash and burn happens all too often. My mother was raised with a similar scheme (and I described this pages ago) and guess what? She went to college and promptly crashed and burned out before completing a single year.

"Allah may guide their bullets, but Jesus helps those who aim down the sights."
 149 Sparkysharps, Thu, 20th Jan '11 9:09:31 AM from Portland, OR
Professional Nerd
Why are all you guys pulling the "Child Abuse" card?

Here's a list of some of the things Chua is doing to her children

  • Withholding social interaction with her peers from them (no sleepovers, no school play, no playdates, no extracurriculars that might actually let them talk to others, etc).
  • Screaming at and belittling her children for daring to not be in the 99th percentile of just about everything.
  • Threatening to withhold food for daring to not be in the 99th percentile.
  • Attributing any and all difficulties or failures to her children being selfish, lazy little bitches. To their faces.

This is emotional abuse. It may not be the most severe emotional abuse I've encountered, it can still fuck kids up big time.
"If there's a hole, it's a man's job to thrust into it!"
Ryoma Nagare, New Getter Robo
 150 Kino, Thu, 20th Jan '11 9:43:37 AM from NC/NYC Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Connoisseur of redheads
With he exception of withholding food, that's not so bad.
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Total posts: 450
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