Buffy the Vampire Slayer

I've no idea if this comment was serious and that fact concerns me.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!

I gave up on arguing "soul ethics" a long time ago. People get really weird and dumb about that. BTVS Season 5 is my favorite season and it seems plain as day to me Spike genuinely cares for Buffy. However, "because he has no soul obviously he can't love her."

In spite of the fact I have never met a single person in all my life who denies Spike sincerely loving Dru.

But it doesn't work for Buffy because.........

Spike is an aberration, anyway.He changed way less than, say, Liam to Angelus. All losing his soul didto William is make him more callous. His core personality remains the same.

The writers have tried backhanding the problems a couple of times; in the comics, Spike states he did not love Dru, it was simply a mutual attraction that played out as complementary insanities. That said, one of the most uncomfortable aspects of the show on rewatch is the mutually predatory relationship between Spike and Buffy. At different times, each of them sexually assaults the other, even before the rape attempt that finally brings Spike his wakeup call. At the end of the day, one of the harsher truths Buffy had to accept was that, in her own way, she was every bit the predator as the demons and vampires she hunted-and it was hunting, with the side effect of saving lives and the world.

That is not an indictment of Buffy's character, but it is something that probably should have been addressed differently than the ham-fisted moralizing by claiming soul/no soul was all that mattered. Unfortunate Implications abound, though Whedon thankfully took a more nuanced approach in Angel to address the implications a bit more.

In season 7 when they revealed something that had been laid out at the start of season 5, it was almost a relief to confirm that Buffy and every other slayer is basically a human soul grafted to a demon.

edited 11th May '17 8:00:04 AM by ViperMagnum357

Vampires are clearly able to care about individual people; it's people in general they place no value on.

"It takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool" - Haruhara Haruko

Spike's capacity for love has been an integral part of his character since literally his first episode. Long before he had a backstory as an undead poet, Spike was already a hopeless romantic.

I've heard some fans try to Hand Wave Spike's feelings as, like, because he was made by Drusilla and she's kinda f*cked, he's a Unique and Special Snowflake and has, like, half a soul or some shit.

But even if you were willing to accept that, the assertion that vampires are incapable of love would still be wrong. In Angel episode "Heartthrob", we meet James. James is a vampire who is deeply, madly, devotedly in love with another vampire. After finding out that Angel killed her, James flies off the deep end and has his heart removed, granting him a temporary period of complete invulnerability before Critical Existence Failure catches up to him.

James was a vampire who loved so deeply that he killed himself for a shot at avenging the person he couldn't bear to unlive without. Vampires are capable of love. Period.

edited 11th May '17 4:38:07 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.

Maybe not "Period", since we do not have higher authorities on the specifics in the show or from the writers. And it is pointed out several times that love and obsession are not the same thing-the discussions in the show, after accounting for the statements that are deliberately hurtful or part of manipulation, cast a lot of doubt on the issue.

Now, the one consistent thing about love in the show was love means sacrifice-while you can make a decent argument that Spike never had the chance to show it, Buffy, Angel, and several other characters had the chance to show themselves making a genuine sacrifice-up to and including their life, for love. Spike, Dru, and others never showed that; being ready to kill for someone is easy, and getting into a dangerous situation may be difficult, but it is not the same thing as knowingly jumping on the proverbial hand grenade.

This is one of those issues Whedon really should have clarified during the many, many Cons he has attended.

edited 11th May '17 5:19:08 PM by ViperMagnum357

In the episode, "Intervention", Glory tortures Spike for the identity of the Key. Despite her best efforts, the most she gets out of him is the farcical claim that the Key is Bob Barker.

After Spike is recovered, Buffy pretends to be the Buffybot in order to find out what Spike told her, prompting this exchange:

• Buffy: Why did you let that Glory hurt you?
• Spike: She wanted to know who the key was.
• Buffy: Well I can tell her and then you won't—
• Spike: No! (cough) You can't ever! Glory never finds out.
• Buffy: Why?
• Spike: Because Buffy - the other, not so pleasant Buffy - anything happened to Dawn, it'd destroy her. I couldn't live, her being in that much pain. I'd let Glory kill me first. Nearly bloody did.
• Buffy kisses him gently on the lips. Spike realizes who she really is.
• Spike: And my robot?
• Buffy: The robot is gone. The robot was gross and obscene.
• Spike It wasn't supposed—
• Buffy: Don't! That thing...it wasn't even real.
• Beat
• Buffy: What you did...for me and for Dawn...that was real. I won't forget it.

This shocking moment of voluntary self-sacrifice is more or less the moment Spike actually becomes a Scooby and begins being trusted, not just kept around out of inertia.

edited 11th May '17 5:35:23 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.

She also extracted from him the equally farcical claim that she, the great and wonderful Glorificus, had a 'lopsided ass." And then Glory actually glances at her butt after he insults it.

Season 5 is the best. (except when it's not)

edited 11th May '17 11:39:05 PM by Nikkolas

Remember this show came out before everyone was so easily offended by every little thing. Anyways I used to love this show.. but I stopped watching at the season were they find out the mayor is a demon and Buffy defeats him. Does anyone remember what season this was?

"Death is a blessing for foolish human beings" - Goku Black

Three, which is 2 seasons before the high point. Season 4 meandered, but has some gems like Hush. I happen to like season 6, though I can understand the divisiveness-it is genuinely different than what came before, and though the execution was clunky it addressed some concepts that were seriously taboo for cable, let alone network television.

I was going to actually go back and watch all of it. Would you say that season 5 is the best season than?

"Death is a blessing for foolish human beings" - Goku Black

I'd actually say Season 3 is the best season, followed by Season 2 and 5.

I would echo that sentiment but flip it. Season 3 best season, followed by 5 and then 2.

It's kinda awkward because, in my opinion, Spike is the show's best character. And yet the best season is the one where he only appears for a single episode.

edited 13th May '17 10:26:30 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.

That's because Season 3 is when the show was just firing on all cylinders. It had probably the best villain of the show (the Mayor), while also having some great stand-alone episodes, and a great story arc featuring Faith. It also had a pretty unbroken string of great episodes — from "Homecoming" all the way to "Graduation Day," there is not a single bad episode.

There are other seasons that have my favorite episodes among them — season 4 has "Hush" and season 5 has "The Body," which is probably the greatest episode of television of all time — but as far as seasons as a whole goes, it's Season 3 all the way.

Well, I prefer he later seasons but Season 3 was one of the best ones.

"Thanos is a happy guy! Just look at the smile in his face!"

If I'm being fair, Season 3 is probably the best overall. So many great episodes and moments and I am a huge Faith fanboy.

But I'm also a Glory fanboy. Favorite Big Bad. But her backstory and the Knights of Byzantium isn't terribly well thought out. The Mayor's backstory was much better. And while I actually do like Riley, his relationship with Buffy is just weak and drags down Season 5. But Season 5 had Tillow....

IT'S TOO HARD FOR ME TO DECIDE.

But Season 6 will always be the worst season iMO.

edited 14th May '17 5:22:31 AM by Nikkolas

Am I the only one that doesn't actually hate season 6? I'd rank it above 1 and 4 if I'm being perfectly honest.

No, I don't hate 6 either. There are a few things that I feel were mishandled about it - most glaringly, Willow's magic power addiction screwing up the payoff to setup that's been running in the background since season 2 - but as it is, I think there's also a lot to like about it as well.

Plus it has Once More, With Feeling. A season that has Once More, With Feeling can't be all bad.

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.

Season 6 was bad. Season 7, arguably, got worse. Not overall (because it had no stupid "magic addiction" plotline), but the addition of tons of Potentials, a boring ass villain (we get it, you're evil, do you have to talk about it all day), and Buffy monologuing for what seemed like half the season dragged it down.

I don't know if I'd call Season 3 the best season. It's the most consistently good season ("Beauty & the Beasts" is probably the only subpar episode in the bunch) but Seasons 2, 4, and 5 have higher highs to go with their lower lows.

And I think Season 4 gets a bum rap. While the Story Arc wasn't great (largely due to Professor Walsh, who was supposed to be the Big Bad, having to be written out mid-season), it doesn't get nearly enough credit for being probably the funniest season the show ever produced.

"It takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool" - Haruhara Haruko

I like Season 3 best. Season 3 because it's strong overall, in terms of the villain and and the character arcs for both Buffy and Faith, and has fewer outright bad episodes than Season 2. Season 4 because, even if its overall arc gets weak when Adam becomes the main villain (due to the departure of the actress playing Professof Walsh), I like the Initiative concept (melding of sci-fi and fantasy). The protagonists having to start dealing with government stuff (at a higher level than municipal) when they leave high school was a good continuance of the show using its villains as a parallel for life. And I'm a fan of X-Files/Fringe/government conspiracy-style shows. Spike being evil but ineffectual is hilarious (I prefer it to him being lovesick for Buffy), and most of the episodes are very strong individually, whether in a dramatic or comedic way or both. And I like Season 4 Riley.

I'm not fond of Season Five because the daily-life stuff gets too outright depressing; if I wanted to watch characters cope with family illness and the death of a parent, I'd watch a drama, not a fantasy show. Also, I find Glory annoying.

Season 2 is probably my third-favourite, but there's some really dreadful epsidoes (e.g., "Inca Mummy Girl","Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered", "Go Fish") and the show is still getting the hang of having an arc-long plot. Angelus would seem more threatening if he didn't go several episodes in a row having bit-parts while the heroes dealt with monster-of-the-week plots.

edited 14th May '17 1:47:57 PM by Galadriel

Angelus would seem more threatening if he ever did anything scary. For the purpose of dragging him out for half a season rather than just having Buffy break his face off in one episode, they have him hang out in the background, occasionally popping out to troll the Scoobies before dashing off back into hiding.

The one legitimately scary Angelus moment is the death of Jenny Calendar and how far he pushed that, but other things like leaving pictures of Buffy on her pillow or killing Willow's goldfish - I mean, seriously? - were mostly just there to remind us that he exists.

It doesn't help that

1. We are given no reason to believe he is actually capable of taking a Slayer in a fight.
2. He's constantly contrasted against Spike, who can and has killed two and was a fantastic villain up until the point Angelus arrived.
3. We actually get to see Buffy overpower him with relative ease right from the get-go. In contrast to Spike, who she had to be saved from in his debut and was presented as a legitimate physical threat to her up until she and Kendra managed to double-team him, it is made clear in Angelus's premiere that he is not and will never be a physical threat to Buffy, and the only reason he's still around is that killing him hurts her in her feels.
4. At one point, he loses a standoff with Xander F*cking Harris. While Buffy is hospitalized, Angelus tries to opportunize because he is a coward and a wuss, but Xander at the door is able to force Angelus to turn tail and flee. Xander brings up that there would be cops and orderlies involved in a fight, but Spike wouldn't care. And Spike would probably win.
5. We also see him try to murder Xander in the aforementioned "Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered" episode only to be forced to stand down by Drusilla. In general, whenever Angelus locks horns with someone, he loses and has to scurry away.

All in all, Angelus just winds up coming off as ineffectual. He gets to put in a much better showing over in Angel's show, but in Buffy's, he's a glorified mook she just can't bring herself to curbstomp for half a season.

edited 14th May '17 2:51:25 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.

I'll say this for season 6, I loved the very end, Xander talking down Willow was brilliant, it wa a true testament to friendship and non-romantic love. Most of the rest of the season I have issues with (beyond a few bright spots), but the very end, that was something.

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran

Angelus is creepy in a psycho-stalker kind of way; the threat he poses is as much (or more) emotional as physical. I agree that having him back down to much in the one-shot episodes in order to kill time until the finale reduces the sense of threat.

Spike is never a frightening villain, no matter how much the narrative tries to build him up with "I've killed two slayers". In his first appearance, he's defeated by the Slayer's mom, who not only has no special powers, but is also completely unaware of the existence of vampires. Several episodes later, when she's alone and he has dozens of vampires in an enclosed space, she defeats him by holding his girlfriend hostage. Halfway through the season, Buffy puts him in a wheelchair.

This is why I dislike the term "Spikification" as a synonym for Badass Decay. Spike was never badass in terms of the danger he posed (as opposed to attitude, which he had in spades). He signalled a drastic improvement in the show not because of his threat level, but because he (and Dru) had an entertaining personality instead of being a generic doomsday villain like the Master. He's also got a pretty good read on psychology and interpersonal dynamics, but he's not manipulative like Angelus and isn't much for long-term thinking, so he tends to use that knowledge for being a dick rather than for any genuinely impressive schemes.

edited 14th May '17 6:32:23 PM by Galadriel

Professor Walsh was never supposed to be the Big Bad, that was always going to be Adam. Seasons 2, 3, 4, and 6 have a set up where the first half of the season has a "Little Bad" that is then supplanted in the later half of the season with a "Big Bad."

• Season 2: Spike and Dru are the Little Bad, supplanted by Angelus.
• Season 3: Mister Trick is the Little Bad, supplanted by the Mayor.
• Season 4: Professor Walsh and the Initiative are the Little Bad, supplanted by Adam.
• Season 6: The Trio are the Little Bad, supplanted by Dark Willow.

The only seasons that don't fit are Season 1, 5, and 7, which have one Big Bad for the entire season (the Master, Glory, and the First Evil).

Actually, those were there to remind us that he could still get into each of their homes, which set up the scene where Giles finds Jenny in his bed. Which, again, was one of the most tragic moments of the entire show.

And that's because Spike knows how to fight. He's a brawler and thus loves fighting, especially if his opponent is just as strong as he is (or stronger). Angelus? Angelus hates fighting, but he loves killing. Killing to Angelus is an art. But that means that he usually torments people first and kills them at their weakest, like he did with Drusilla. But that also means he doesn't fight as well as Spike does. (Notice how in Angel Season 5, during an all out fight between Angel and Spike, Spike still won?)