Tales Series

They kinda do rule over them actually. Specifically their sub lords, of which Innominat is shown to have a lot, and we never seen any except reincarnated Shepherds for the other ones. Innominat can enslave other Seraphs through his Domains influence as well, which makes them his and the Exorcists puppets as well.

Of course not all Seraphs fall into this, but it is common enough.

And even in Shinto many Kami were united under the Amatsu led by Amaterasu.

Just like a number of kami were united under the Kunitsu. Not all of them of course and some get exiled from Heaven for being jerks like Tsukuyomi and Susano-o.

Also Kami were also creates by the Gods in Shinto as well, just as there were ones they didn't.

edited 22nd Jul '17 2:44:56 PM by OmegaRadiance

Ah, but ignoring four very important facts. 1. Only Maotelus has sublords the other Emperyons do not have any. 2. Sublords chose to be ruled over by their prime lords, being a sublord is actually a contractual agreement between seraphim. 3. Even with that contract in place the sublord can still choose to break their contract at any time and leave and therefore the prime lord has no real power over their sublord. 4. Sublords contracts are really only there for the shepherds

Innomiant's ability to enslave other tenzoku is actually an ability of this that doesn't just work on effect on other tenzoku, but also humans as well. Innomiant's ability isn't a sign of any kind of hierarchy nor does it have anything to do with it, it's just literally his ability is to take control of the minds of others. It's no different from Symonne's ability over illusions, it's simply just a unique skill held by a powerful seraphim. That wasn't any sign of hierachy that was literally just Innominant taking control of the mind of another being, that's why the seraphim who are released from the effect of his domain immediately turn against him or just leave. Even though Innomiant doesn't want them to, again the seraphim leave because they have no obligation to stay and no reason to listen to Innomiant's orders without being mind controlled. This is again false equivalency.

Actually the majority of seraphim aren't sublords and Innomiant was literally brainwashing the other seraphim into being his slaves so, the neither of your points are true.

Amaterasu isn't a kami, she's an actual God, that's why she and the people that she personally appoints have more power. And even then she doesn't really have power over all the Kami.

I think that your understanding of Japanese mythology off. Anything can turn into a Kami, yes the Gods can create kami, but the majority of them aren't created by gods but rather came out from other ways, anything that people worship enough can turn into a kami, a person who died can become a kami, a concept can become a kami, a random animal can become a kami, or they can be spontaneously born from the Earth itself (hi there Earthpulse). While they can be the servants of Gods created specifically to serve that God, but most aren't that way. Effectively like human society.

The fact that one Empyrean has such an ability doesn't mean more can't exist in the Heavenly Realm, and Innominats Sub Lords pretty much exist to carry out his will, which we see quite clearly in the game. It'd be different if his Sub Lords expressed opinions of their own, but they might as well be mindless servants acting out on his will. I never said all Seraphs serve the Empyreans either, only that there's likely more than we know considering the number known to follow Innominat, which still fits what I said about some Seraphs serving those above them.

Innominat is shown to clearly be fine with a ruling hierarchy based on how the Exorcists are run based on the spiritual power he bestowes and how the Malaks are treatees, and having others subservient to him, even a slave with no free will can be considered a servant. Like Daemon Aifread.

That last part is exactly what I said. They can create Kami even if most aren't made by them and a number of them do reside with them, while there are plenty that likewise don't.

And I know that Kami can be made thorugh worship. It's how the likes of Michizane was deified by human worship after it was believed his vengeful spirit retaliated for the mistreatment done upon him.

Granted I can't exaxtly tell what line blurs between a God and just Kami, because some Kami are worshipped as genuine Gods or Demigods. Afterall Kami is used for both.

edited 22nd Jul '17 3:42:46 PM by OmegaRadiance

Except Innominat is specifically stated to be special existence, so there aren't others like him. Innominat is unique, and also doesn't ignore the fact that Innominant actually doesn't have sublords. The tenzoku that were literally just being mind controlled, therefore not an example of any type of hierachy since the tenzoku aren't following him knowingly.. The tenzoku under Innominant's control don't express opinions because they're literally being mind controlled, they have no power over their own bodies or their own thoughts. Hell it's even pointed out by Eleanor and Laphichet, the seraphim were being mind controlled and therefore were incapable of thinking for themselves, that's why they don't express opinions. Again Innominant isn't an example of tenzoku hierarchy because he was literally using mind control on the tenzoku to get them to do what he wanted. The whole concept of sublords was created by Eleanor and Maotelus, so you're point is lost due to those two facts.

Let me reiterate this, Sublords and Prime lords have nothing to do with the other Emperyons besides Maotelus, because the entire concept was created specifically for shepherd's duty. It is not an example of hierarchy since it is literally a contract that the sublord can both either choose to make or break at any point in time. It's just an agreement between seraphim. As shown by Dezel. The majority of seraphim aren't in a sublord contract, so you'd be wrong on all levels to try to expand it to mean anything beyond a contract between two seraphim to help the shepherd.

Let me reiterate this, there is no real hierarchy amongst the tenzoku. Yes, some seraphim are more powerful than others and you have seraphim that choose to follow those powerful seraphim out of respect, however the majority of them don't. Their entire set up is similar to human society.

Innomiant is only ruling because he's literally mind controlling others into following him, if a pauper uses mind control over a king to take control of his actions, it doesn't make the king any less of a king, it doesn't mean that the pauper is now naturally from a higher hierarchy from that king, why because in reality the kind isn't really subservient to that pauper but rather is being forced to be subservient through a spell. It just means that the pauper is using mind control over the king, and that's it.

The ones in Innominats body are called his Sub Lords. At least I recall them being said to be as such.

The fact that one Empyrean does it does mean it is still a thing that can exist amongst Seraphs, since the whole thing is that unusual and unique seraphs are born occassionaly with Domains that are different. We know that he's the only unique Seraph with his specific ability amongst the ones in the earthly realm, but we do not that amongst the Seraphs in the Heavenly Realm, which the Heavenly Realm has also been cut off from the mortal universe since the Bet was made. And a Seraph having a power that they don't know about is completely probable, since purification originates from Innominat but he's never shown to really know about it or they would have used it long before now.

I just feel were not going to agree on this so lets stop. I feel the shinto ideas are very clear regardless of the localization changes with the exception of Malevolence and that's the stance I take.

edited 22nd Jul '17 4:38:26 PM by OmegaRadiance

I want the next Tales game to make the hero one of the Mook soldiers you'd normally mow down in any other JRPG (including Tales itself).

Be a fascinating thing to tell the story from their point of view.

Then that really wouldn't be much like a JRPG, they are a power fantasy like most other video games and to be powerless is not something people really want when they play them.

Any of those types of tales will start you out as a mook but then elevate you to at minimum Elite Mook status and drive the plot or the plot moves and you catch up. Star Ocean The Last Hope is one example of the former and Final Fantasy XII is the latter.

Kiseki Series games like The Legend Of Heroes Trails In The Sky and The Legend Of Heroes Trails Of Cold Steel are probably the closest I can think of to playing a mook, the latter is more playing students who will become mooks.

edited 22nd Jul '17 4:56:31 PM by Memers

Basically becoming an Elite Mook is something of the idea.

Tales Of Graces is probably the closest the Tales games have ever got to that, as a Knight who rises to Lord and serves his King vs a rebellion... then the shift happened with Richard and things got strange.

Kiseki Series is very good at that department. In Sky you are basically training to be a professional adventurer that does jobs around the country, never more than basically an elite rent-a-cop with a Chronic Hero Syndrome in a fight way too big for her britches.

@Omega Radiance Last point

Actually they weren't called sublords, because sublords weren't a thing until after Berseria. In fact they're just called Malakhim, they weren't given any special deonation.

Except it doesn't help your point, because it's mind control. The fact that a character has the ability to mind control other characters and uses it is not a reflection of actual societal structure or hierarchy. Some seraphim just have unique abilities and some don't. I also believe it's stated that Innomiant is just unique all around both to the heavenly seraphim and to the Earthly seraphim. If he wasn't then do you really think that the Earhly Seraphim would even still be on Glenwood? They wouldn't be the heavenly seraphim would have used their ability to force the Glenwood seraphim back to heavenly realm.

I don't care about when the next Tales Game comes out, I just want BAMCO to let the DEV team finish this one.

edited 22nd Jul '17 6:49:08 PM by TheTropeEater

Actually mind control/stripping of free will/brainwashing humans into a hierarchy structure has been done before. Not in Tales of course, but it has been done. Rob knows because we both play one such franchise. It's not common amongst Seraphs, but all it takes is just one and you can have their fellows broken under their heel. As Innominat shows with zero empathy he has with his own kind.

The Heavenly Seraphim want the Seraph in the mortal realm to die. that's the entire point of the bet. They were vindictive and spiteful and why they close the gate.

edited 22nd Jul '17 7:22:41 PM by OmegaRadiance

No, they want to punish the mortal seraphim, and again if they really had that power then they would have used it to end their rebellion right then and there. They wouldn't even be in Glenwood.

They wouldn't because Eizen mentions at one point that occassionally Seraphim willingly descend from the Heavenly Realm and they refuse to let those who gave up on coexistence back. They intentionally sabotaged their chances out of ego.and abandoning Seraphs to the mortal realm is not beyond them.

That ego is all the more reason to use any kind of mind control powers if they had any to quell any disagreeable thoughts from the Earthly seraphim.

Depends on how one wants to satisfy their ego. Make them wallow in despair knowing their actions were futile and they'll becoming mindless rampaging beasts one day is just one way to do that.

Considering how the heavenly seraphim have been having trouble making the earthly seraphim wallow in despair it seems like they'd be happier if they could just force the earthly seraphim do what they wanted.

I'm curious, would Malevolence/Kegare be from the same Shinto source as the Gloom in Noragami, which works in much the same way, although less directly as in Zestiria? In Noragami, Gloom is generated when humans sin or are filled with negative emotions, it creates or corrupts normal spirits into Ayakashi which are hostile spiritual monsters that produce and magnify Gloom, and in turn make humans more negative and more likely to produce Gloom. Noragami does work heavily with Shinto myth, being focused on the Kami of shintoism as the main cast, so while I dunno if you've read it, I'm wondering if the source is similar.

Yup, it's one and the same. It all comes from the idea of "Kegare" or "uncleanliness and defilement".

In fact, if you've seen Noragami, Shaman King or even Natsume Yuujinchou and approach it with the same mentality you'll actually understand the world building more.

edited 22nd Jul '17 9:45:24 PM by TheTropeEater

So what Rob was suggesting was a Tales game where you go from FN-2199 to Char Aznable?

No lie, I'd play that.

For a further twist, the villains are really twisted portrayals of characters you'd normally see as the heroes in most JRPG's (including Tales games), just to provide a real idea of how the normal grunt soldier sees these dudes who come out of nowhere and plow through them while spotting cliche bullshit.

...that might be asking too much though.

I'd still play that anyway. It'd be a hugely refreshing take on Tales formula.

But would the guys you be working for still be the Big Bad, or would they be the Big Good?

Maybe your actions end up determining that?

I could see in this story you being one of the grunts who works under the leader guy as a servant or something, and you could offer counsel when the person you work for is faced with difficult choices. One could be how to approach handling the hero themed villains and the like, and depending on the advice you give, they either steadily become a Big Bad, leading to the hero themed villains becoming heroes in opposing you and leading to an evil route, or else they steadily develop into a Big Good with the help of you and the party, and you must stop the hero themed villains as they would still want to overcome the leader for whatever reasons they may have.

edited 24th Jul '17 12:04:15 PM by Alfric

Plus it could be a nicely deconstructive comeback of the subversive Tales we all know and love.

And that its basically sounding more like Undertales of.