How can a Christian and a neo-pagan coexist as mates?

Most children of religiously mixed couples I know are atheists.

Also HERESY

Paganism leads two crimes. You turn away from the path of righteousness and you abandon the LORD, Jesus, as the object of your devotion. For the first death is merely a just retribution. The second is a Heresy so terrible that no punishment can be sufficient. Yet the search for an appropriate penalty continues, and it shall be found. A moment of Laxity spawns a lifetime of heresy. Never forgive, never forget. A single thought of heresy can blight a lifetime of faithful duty. Heresy grows from idleness. Heresy must be met with hatred. Reason begets doubt; Doubt begets heresy. The difference between heresy and treachery is ignorance. The guilt of heresy weighs heavy on the soul. The seed of heresy rests in the minds of reasonable men. Thought begets Heresy; Heresy begets Retribution. To question the LORD's will is to embrace heresy.

edited 11th Jan '11 5:01:48 AM by RawPower

... Did you take Warhammer 40,000 quotes and put "lord" instead of "emperor" again?

And I think that its more than possible to cohabit and love each other if some things about you are different. Makes more sense than if you are near enough the same.

The EMPRAH is JESUS, didn't you know? It's CANON.

And, seriously, what is wrong with Heresy? Don't you know all Christian denominations are heretic towards each other, and probably towards the original source as well? Are you sure Jesus said he was more than human? Are you sure the accepted canon is acceptable? Are you sure the tons and tons of apocrypha are worth rejecting?

Time for more Rule of Cool

[[youtube:BsWazWtSD64&feature=related]]

edited 11th Jan '11 6:29:10 AM by RawPower

OP@ Jeez dude, I cant even be friends with someone of different political leanings, I doubt I'd be able to reconceile religious differences with a romantic partner. This is something I never got, religious tolerance is a good thing, but I find it impossible to have a personal relationship with someone who thinks I'm going to hell, or who thinks I behave immorally. Even if she is the kind of christian that belives that virtous non-belivers also go to Heaven, its a pretty big stumbling block.

Also, just another thing, I kinda wish atheists wouldnt keep refering to Science as an alternative to religion, it sounds like some kind of creepy idoltry.

It's not an alternative. Science is all there is. It is the sum of true human verifiable empirical knowledge. All the rest of "sources of knowledge on life, the universe, and everything"... are void. Bwa ha ha.

Alright, as a "personal" alternative to religion. Like it or not, people are going to be religious, so you could atleast make atheism sound... well, less like douchebags. And refering to Science like that REALLY sounds douchey.

I know exactly what you mean, I used to find this attitude so infuriating back when I was still a theist. You know why it is so? Because it's true, and no-one likes to be told they are wrong, especially when their entirebig chunks of their lives are built around what they are wrong about.

I'll try to curb my enthusiasm. It's counterproductive. And uncivil.

edited 11th Jan '11 8:30:02 AM by RawPower

^ Yeah, see, what you're doing right there? Thats being a jerk. You're acting just like the religious who are convinced THEY know the truth and will do everything they can to throw it in your face. I dont liek religion either, in fact, I barely even like NICE religious people, but you might want to turn back the dial a little there.

Indeed, you are right. Except that, as a religious person, I have not ever been this assertive. I was always plagued by doubt. Only now have I achieved piece of mind. I'm not just loudly cheering and professing. I genuinely am near-absolutely certain of being in the right.

Yeah, just like a fundamentalist.

Only From a Certain Point of View (i.e. not). Epistemiologically, a fundamentalist has no basis other than circular logic to defend his "beliefs". Ethically, we have nothing in common. I say something is right because we agree to it. They say something is right because God/Buddha/etc. told them it was. I take moral responsibility for what I do. They don't.

edited 11th Jan '11 8:48:43 AM by RawPower

...Raw, being fanatically focused on making people drop religion is just as a bad as being fanatically focused on Jesus. You still wont accomplish anything, and you'll just piss off everyone while claiming to have the moral highground.

I agree with the second bit, but I wouldn't say I'm being "fanatical". I'm not suggesting we kill the priestohood or anything close. I'm not even saying people will be eternally punished for not agreeing with me. I'm just saying they are wrong, and claiming I can actually prove it, if they will listen. This is rude, and indelicate, and insensitive. It isn't fanatical.

edited 11th Jan '11 8:57:57 AM by RawPower

Back on topic; As a Christian, I have no idea how a relationship between a Christian and a Pagan could work long term. I couldn't see myself doing it for a number of reasons. For one thing, marriage and kids. Which temple do you get married in? Do you have a preist/pastor marry you?

Wife and I had a Justice of the Peace do it. She’s Muslim and I’m sorta miscellaneous, but we can say “Christian” for this conversation. My father could have done it if we got married in the state he had a license in. It’s not exactly hard to find someone with a secular background that could perform marriages.

What about when kids come, what will you teach them? Where will they go on Sunday, since church going is typically a family thing. As a Pagan, would you let her baptise the kids? I know as a Christian, I wouldn't let my hypothetical kids attend Pagan rituals.

This is getting a tad more into “discuss with your significant other” territory. The long and the sort of it is if you love someone and want to be responsible about this sort of thing talk it over with them and figure out what’s important to the two of you and if Religious rituals are going to become an issue or not.

And, seriously, what is wrong with Heresy?

It distorts Christianity. It involves believing things unChristian while still pretending to be Christian.

I mean, what you are arguing for is essentially "Christianity is right, and your godlessness is showing". It's the worst kind of hypocrisy.

I'm sorry you feel it's hypocritical, but it's what I truly believe. Christianity is the right one, and any others, such as Pagans, are not the truth, and are sinful. They may have elements of truth in them, but Christianity is the full truth.

Don't you know all Christian denominations are heretic towards each other, and probably towards the original source as well? Are you sure Jesus said he was more than human? Are you sure the accepted canon is acceptable? Are you sure the tons and tons of apocrypha are worth rejecting?

Well, this is getting off topic, but since you had to ask; heretic is too strong a word for how other Christian denominations view each other. The only ones that go into true heresy are Mormonism, Jehovah's Wtiness, Christian Science, etc. As for how can I be sure the canon books are the correct books, I believe the church selected them while guiuded by the Holy Spirit.

I won't make a comment here and expect an answer as we would be getting offtopic, but "how do you know" and "convince me" spring to mind.

And whilst children may be important to some, in this particular relationship they don't seem possible, so its about the actual people who have made their decisions as adults.

edited 11th Jan '11 2:19:21 PM by JosefBugman

Yeah, be more tolerant, it's not as if priest had proven to be all that trustworthy throughout history...

I'm not sure this is even tangentially related to inter-faith relationships...

edited 11th Jan '11 2:15:33 PM by Justice4243

Of course it is. If you fear the children of the couple become heretics, you might have to question what HERESY means.

For example, Islam acknowledges the existen of Djinn (Genius, Genie), supernatural spirits that were made of "smokeless fire" and who inhabit a different but close plane to humans. They too have free will and they too may or may not believe in God. Some of them pretend to be deities in order for people to worship them and bring them sacrifices (which benefit them). While Islam technically forbids worshipping them as gods, for it is a sin, and discourages dealing with them, for their magic is poisonous to this world (To Aru Majutsu No Index had a similar concept, as well as Discworld), you may still deal with them as such.

Hence, if your kids want to deal with pagan deities, as long as they acknowledge that the Only god is God and that their actual prayers are only to Him, dealing with the Djinn is kinda okay.

See? Don't Christians have anything like this?

Anything not Christian as well as Christian Science, mormonsism, Jehovah's witness are heresy (paraphrased)

...

Okay, this is getting a bit too fundamentalist for me. I can understand feeling very very right about your religion, but keep in mind that to Jehovah's Witnesses you're a heretic, and to Christian Science you're an idiot, which is possibly worse. (Though admittedly Morminism is like the bug-eyed relative of Christianity that always seems to be high on something but you can't quite tell what.)

If you're really right that's all the reward you need; throwing 'heretic' in people's faces is NOT a good way to earn brownie points with generally anyone but fundamentalists.

Raw Power: No, they don't. To them everything non-human is 'angel' or 'demon.' Black-and-White Morality at its most prominent.

edited 11th Jan '11 2:40:43 PM by Diamonnes

See? Don't Christians have anything like this?

Yes and no. Islam's djin sounds a lot like Christianity's angels, but I think Pagan deities are still right out per Deuteronomy 18:10-11. Catholics are allowed to pray to saints and to angels though. However, this is commonly misunderstood, all prayers are still towards God. Praying to saints is like asking somebody else to help pray for you. And angels are agents of God, asking them for help is similar to asking God.

Christian Science you're an idiot, which is possibly worse.

Really? The people who think it's a sin to go to hospitals and the right thing to do with treatable but deadly terminal illnesses call me an idiot? Fine by me.

Yeah, be more tolerant

That's rich, coming from you. So only atheists are allowed to look down on others and believe themselves to be right?

Basically, to paraphrase the guy himself: Let the righteous cast not the first stone. If you're really right that's all the reward you need; throwing 'heretic' in people's faces is NOT a good way to earn brownie points with generally anyone but fundamentalists.

I'm usually not so aggressive, I'm actually pretty mellow most of the time. I only brought it up because people asked, and this is a religion topic. I'm not the kind of guy to be preachy all the time, or go on about fire and brimstone (which i don't even believe in anyway).

At the risk of being overly blunt, if you don't like the answer, perhaps you shouldn't ask the question.

edited 11th Jan '11 2:51:34 PM by washington213

That's speciesism that's what it is! Angels and Djinn are of an entirely different stock!

Here, the story of Satan/Iblis according to Islam

According to basic Islamic teachings, God created at least three intelligent races: angels, jinns, and humans, of which the latter two have been granted free will to choose between good and evil.[4][5]

in some sources Iblis used to be called Azazel until he rebelled against Allah and then god called him Iblis

Iblis was a jinn and a devoted servant of God, according to the Qur’an.[6][7][8] However, according to other non-Qur'anic sources he was a "disobedient angel".[3][9] He attained a very high status and was brought close or even equal with the angels. God knew Iblis harbored ill intentions, however, and this was the reason for his name, Iblis "Desperate," or "despair."[citation needed]

The angels do not have free will and simply do not sin because they were not granted the freedom by God to disobey. God one day told his creations that one of them will turn against him. The angels then rushed to Iblis, knowing that God valued his supplication immensely. Iblis prayed to God to "not let any of the angels be the one to turn against God", and God granted his plea. However, he did not include himself in the supplication because he thought of himself as safe and high in God's eye.[citation needed] When God created Adam (Adem), He commanded all the angels and Iblis (whose rank allowed him to be considered equal to that of an angel) to prostrate to Adam as was termed "the Best of Creation". All the angels did so except Iblis, who refused to obey.

It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels prostrate to Adam, and they prostrate; not so Iblis; He refused to be of those who prostrate. (Allah) said: "What prevented thee from prostrating when I commanded thee?" He said: "I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay." —Qur'an, sura 7 (Al-A'raf), ayat 11-12[10]

Iblis was proud and arrogant and considered himself superior to Adam, since Adam was made from clay and Iblis was created from smokeless fire. For this act of disobedience, God cursed him to Hell for eternity, but gave him respite until the Day of Judgment (Qiyamah), after Iblis requested it. Iblis obtained permission from God and vowed that he would use this time to lead all human men and women astray to Hell as a way of revenge against them. By refusing to obey God’s order he was thrown out of Paradise and thereafter he was called "Shaitan".

He said: "Give me respite till the day they are raised up." (Allah) said: "Be thou among those who have respite." He said: "Because thou hast thrown me out of the way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on thy straight way: "Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left: Nor wilt thou find, in most of them, gratitude (for thy mercies)." (Allah) said: "Get out from this, disgraced and expelled. If any of them follow thee,- Hell will I fill with you all. —Qur'an, sura 7 (Al-A'raf), ayat[11]

Although God grants the request, He also warns the Shayṭān that he would have no authority over His sincere ‘ubūd "devoted servants".

"As for My servants, no authority shalt thou have over them:" Enough is thy Lord for a Disposer of affairs. —Qur'an, sura 17 (Al-Isra), ayah 65[12]

In Islamic theology, the Shaytan and his minions are "whisperers", who whisper into the hearts of men and women, urging them to commit sin. This is where the desire to sin comes from, according to Islam.

The Qur'an provides a supplication for mankind, aimed at fighting the tempting of ash-Shaytan and his minions:

Say: I seek refuge with the Lord and Cherisher of Mankind, The King (or Ruler) of Mankind, The god (or judge) of Mankind,- From the mischief of the Whisperer (of Evil), who withdraws (after his whisper),- (The same) who whispers into the hearts of Mankind,- Among Jinns and among men. —Qur'an, sura 114 (Al-Nas), ayat 1-6[13]

Oh man this could make an awesome comicbook... with the angels as Stepford Smilers... kinda like Superman's lobotomized people in Red Son... And yeah, Satan as a whisperer is much more interesting than all that Religious Horror where he has direct power (the Islamic conception made such movies as The Exorcist very Narmy to me as a child: it just didn't make sense).

I confess to being a bit baffled by the reluctance of some Christians to let their children even learn about other religions, much less investigate them. Can't this grand "Truth" of theirs withstand scrutiny and stand up on its own merits compared to other faiths? If God wants everyone to be saved, why allow the deck to be stacked against us in this way?

I just meant the above two posts above mine.

Diamonnes is pretty much right about the treatment of the supernatural. The Bible doesn't really talk about much save the odd angel here or there and the old gods mostly got converted to demons of some sort. to be avoided at alll...

Well, I'll be damned...  ^*

Some texts are written with instructions on how to summon demons in the name of God and often were claimed to have been written by individuals respected within the Church, such as the Lesser Key of Solomon or The Grimoire of Pope Honorius (although these the earliest manuscripts were from well after these individuals had died)

Right, well, ancient books of summoning demons for holy fun and profit aside, most sects fall into the pattern mentioned above.

Though, someone unfettered by specific sect related doctrines could likely have a bit more open mind regarding other religions/spiritual entities provided Jesus was aces in his or her book. The Bible only really clearly attacks some of the old religions practiced by the neighbors of the ancient Hebrews.

edited 11th Jan '11 2:55:39 PM by Justice4243

That question used to drive me crazy as a kid. The Muslim answer is that everyone got a fair chance in their lives at following the Straight and Narrow path of God, even indirectly.

Oh wait. Apparently in Islam, just as in catholicism, as long as you are monotheistic and repent of your sins before God, you MAY be forgiven.