Super Smash Bros.

@Pushover: Fine, here's my response to that.

I said earlier that Ganondorf uses hand-to-hand moves in several games. Mario has only punched in two games. And Mario barely fights melee in any game aside from Goomba Stomping; when he does, he favors a hammer and not punching.

Of course, then you said:

What about the fact that Mario stomps in all of his main series games yet has no stomping move (besides the footstool jump) in Smash?

No, they definitely have much to do with each other. If you want Ganondorf to be revamped to be "canon", by all reasonable logic that has been presented, you have to want Mario to be revamped to be canon as well.

The context is clear: people want Ganondorf to use his iconic moves and fighting style. But no one wants Mario to use his iconic moves and fighting style.

Therefore, anyone who wants Ganondorf to be revamped is a Hypocrite.

@randomness:

So if Ganondorf can charge up magic in his fist and punch the ground, he can charge up magic in his fist and punch enemies.

Amazing how subjectivity of opinions is a thing. Whether you perceive people who don't agree with you as hypocrites doesn't actually matter at all.

edited 25th Apr '17 9:11:24 AM by Perseus

Mario IS using his iconic moveset. Fireballs, all-roundedness, heck even his famous jump is thematically kept through his Up-B

And accusing everyone of wanting Ganondorf to stop literally being a clone are hypocrites just because Mario is fulfilling the role of an everyman instead of utilising moves that mainly appear in spin-offs is a bit short-sighted, don't you think?

Look, you definitely want the hammer in. How about we give it to Paper Mario, and come up with a moveset from there? It can be a Mario that can represent the spin-offs in general.

edited 25th Apr '17 9:11:30 AM by Numbuh1234

x3 What?

There's a difference between adapting a character to another genre and completely throwing everything out the window.

Yes, Mario doesn't hurt his opponents by jumping on them, that isn't an argument in Falcondorf's favor.

edited 25th Apr '17 9:11:50 AM by Grounder

Have to agree with that.

Besides, Paper Mario is far and away more associated with a hammer than Mario himself is. Mario hasn't even used one in a mainline Mario game (not counting the Mario & Luigi RPGs) in quite sometime. Paper Mario fighting in Smash with a hammer makes a lot of sense.

I also agree with putting Paper Mario in

Mario has ONLY ever used a hammer in his RPG games and in the original Donkey Kong. The hammer is not iconic to Mario or the Mario series. So unless you want to shoehorn in some more of the power-ups, all mario really has is punching and kicking if he wants to fight. Equating that to wanting Ganondorf to have a few more weapons or magical attacks that at least resemble something he did as the villain in any of the main series Zelda games is a rather unfair comparison.

edited 25th Apr '17 10:23:18 AM by SalFishFin

What if we do want Mario to have his hammer and ground pound? Would that make a revamped Ganondorf okay?

Because I have nothing against it. I don't think it's needed, but if giving Mario a hammer is what it takes to make Ganondorf fun and unique, so be it.

I mean. It won't. But if it did than I'd be cool with it.

Ganondorf uses hand-to-hand attacks in:

• OoT: Hits the ground with a magic-charged punch.
• WW: Backhands Link and Tetra a few times in cutscenes, punches Link in another cutscene, and uses a kick in his boss fight
• TP: Chokes the Sage of Water in a flashback cutscene, uses an elbow strike and kick in boss fight.
• SS (as Demise): Punches Link occassionally to stagger him.
• HW: Has the ground punch from OoT, and coats his arms with magic to punch in both the Great Swords and Trident movesets,

Meanwhile, Mario uses hand-to-hand attacks in:

• Super Mario RPG: Unarmed style that gets easily outclassed by other weapons later on
• Mario 64: Has it as a base move, though it's admittedly less effective than stomping.

Ganondorf has used hand-to-hand techniques in more games than Mario has, and you still think Mario is more faithful than Ganon?

reminder that ganondorf is literally a clone of falcon because he was put in at the last minute in melee's development

i wouldn't mind seeing him get a few new toys

Calamity Ganon final smash when

"punching the ground to destroy it" doesn't seem like hand-to-hand to me

Especially since the purpose of that is to make it easier for him to fight you WITHOUT going into melee

The rest of those are in cutscenes, or is from a character who, in the end, is only Sort Of Related to Ganon (incarnation of hatred or something idk)

Hyrule Warriors I can understand a bit, but it's also weird citing evidence from spinoffs. Granted, Wario is basically Spinoff The Character. But even then, making almost his entire moveset based of scraps of things he's basically went and gone "hey, I can do this!" rather than what he actively uses in his fights (i want my fucking super spreadshot from OOT smash peoples)

edited 25th Apr '17 10:44:17 AM by Trip

Most of your counters were regarding Mario's stomping, which I've already given my two cents on (make his footstool do damage and spike), and was introduced to the discussion after my initial argument was posted.

Your assertion that everyone who wants Ganondorf to change also wants Mario to stay the same, which makes them a hypocrite, is also flawed, for the simple fact that just because people want Ganondorf to change, that does not necessarily mean that those same people are opposed to Mario changing. It's not an either-or, nor is it a all-or-nothing, and saying that it is either of these, or that anyone else perceives it to be either of these, is misrepresenting the opposing arguments.

Finally, how many main series (2D and 3D) games does Mario use the hammer in? Main series, not Mario and Luigi, not Paper Mario, not Mario vs Donkey Kong, not Mario Kart, the Sports games, or Mario Party, I'm referring to Mario's main series of games.

edited 25th Apr '17 10:46:38 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

@Trip: Reminder that Ganondorf as a magic-enhanced puncher is far more unique in both aesthetics and playstyle than as a heavy sword user (when we already have Ike) and as a energy ball-thrower, projectile reflector, and teleporter (when we already have Mewtwo).

You keep cherrypicking things for your argument. Ganondorf does fight hand to hand a lot, yes, but he's also far more consistently a magic user. He even swings a sword around in a victory animation and shows it off for a taunt.

Dead Man's Volley is a Ganondorf staple. Far more so than Mario's hammer is one to him, and most boss battles with him in the past has him use a combination of magic and swordplay more than anything else. Kicks and punches supplement his attacks at best.

Consider also that the Hammer is something anyone can pick up and use as a random weapon as well, and the value of giving it to Mario diminishes all the more.

hey

hey hey hey

here's an interesting solution

combine em

I seem to recall the fire flower being far more recurring than the hammer in the main games.

By a preeettty wide margin.

So Mario has a bunch of fire attacks, has a Special dedicated to replicating their function, and a skin that gives him the fire flower getup.

that's impossible trip you're speaking madness

you're saying

a person can do more than one thing with their smash moveset

no

noooooo

edited 25th Apr '17 10:45:58 AM by Hashil

listen

listen

what if

what if

gannnnnon had ranged options to help add chip damage to his more brutal melee attacks, supplementing his punishing playstyle by making it more difficult to just evade him, or had him able to land a crippling blow from a distance after putting the enemy in a real bad spot

sorry

that vague ability set is exactly like Mewtwo and Ike because reasons

Nah, you can't turn Ganondorf into a swordsman with projectiles: that would just make him a clone of Cloud!

Wait yeah

HOW is the proposed changes to Ganondorf stealing off of Ike or Mewtwo?

Ike has the big sword and... what?

Mewtwo has a projectile (yo Lucario has basically the same projectile and you haven't brought him up once, probably because Lucario and Mewtwo actually play differently from each other), and a Reflector... Apart from the fact that Ganondorf's iconic projectile is reflectable, not reflecting, I don't know any other similarities they have.

We probably should get rid of most of the cast, honestly- I mean, Mario already has hands, so any more characters with hands is redundant.

The "main series" argument doesn't really hold when Bowser's increased number of punching moves only really came from Bowser's Inside Story.

And yet no one has a problem with Ness only using his bat for one move even though that's his iconic weapon.

Forward Smash is Warlock Punch now

B is a projectile that when fully charged fires into a number of smaller projectiles that, nonetheless, deal heavy damage if they all connect, or if you stop it just before it fully charges its a single blow with less damage but more knockback

side-B is still flamechoke because flamechoke games are fun and i never want this to go away

Up-B can be either a Basic Air Slash which is what they would do because god damn do they love air slash recoveries, or a Shiek-esque damaging teleport, which is INTERESTING and could have a cool DARKNESS AESTHETIC

down-B can be reflecting backhand, or, to placate "muh mewtwo rip" argument, it could be him punching the ground like you said, which could possibly stun enemies for a brief moment, maybe a bit similar to DK, only presumably you cant just mash it and leave yourself open to Literally Every Non-Grounded Attack In The Game

and i could go on incorperating these moves into his final smash but i only have a brief moment to be here so i'll save that for later

and the reason ness uses his bat at all is because ness hardly has an offensive movest to begin with, and a character with only one or two actually offensive moves would be aggravating to play with and against

No, people have more of a problem with Ness using all of his friend's moves, because that's a bigger deal. People don't even have that much of a problem with that.

first off Earthbound is obscure as all hell so calling anything "iconic" from it is an oxymoron

2nd no one gives two shits about Ness's bat. It's as interesting as Mario's hammer. yeah i went there

I think the telekinetic kid who can set fire to people or absorb projectiles with his mind having a moveset revolving around that stuff is way more interesting than Lil Slugger the bobblehead and considering no one complains about his moveset, most people probably agree