Super Smash Bros.

I might be falling into the whole elitism thing, but I would say that the competitive scene is probably the larger part of the fanbase, so pandering to them shouldn't be an issue. Hell, just supporting them shouldn't be an issue. But Sakurai decided instead to say there was no point in playing smash competitively, and that the game had no competitive future. Also there are essentially no advanced techniques in Melee that are glitches... The one that I can think of right now is Samus' super wavedash, and there's also the ice climber freeze glitch but that's banned in tournament play. And the fact that most of the not character specific tech is pretty easy.

Sakurai is mostly fine with the competitive fanbase nowadays. I think people remember his mindset from before 2014.

Wobbling.

don't go bringing that sin into this house

Sakurai eventually found that he made Brawl too casual.

That's why with Smash 4 he tried to balance the casual and competitive styles.

When a technique is hated by the dude who invented it ^.  well, popularized it, but it's still heavily associated with it and he has the first non Japanese player to really make use of it IIRC you know something's messed up.

how many times can you headbutt someone in the dick

before you can call him a man?

edited 24th Oct '16 10:34:41 AM by TheHeroHartmut

Unlikely, especially with a game that attracts so many fans under the premise of "I can make Mario fight Sonic!"

I wouldn't say "easy" when the key technique of wavedashing has given long-time players medical problems.

I think it's less that it's hard and more like you need to be doing said techniques constantly in a fast paced game, that's where the problems come from

edited 24th Oct '16 10:50:54 AM by FullMoon

I think ukemi is about the most complex technique we need. Anything further tends to be either input tax or a medical risk.

Reading the opponent should be the area competitive skill develops around, in my opinion, rather than excessive dexterity requirements.

edited 24th Oct '16 10:51:20 AM by Anomalocaris20

I'd say that there are about as much casual fans as there are competitive fans.

That's only a problem when they but heads.

Nah. Even Smash 4's far simpler tech is enough to add a bit of welcome complexity to the accessible core mechanics.

http://www.gamnesia.com/news/sakurai-explains-why-he-doesnt-want-smash-to-be-a-competitive-game Sakurai saying smash has no future.

Wavedashing is easy, it's 2 inputs. And it's NOT why Hax or M 2 K have hand issues, it's things like waveshine, multi shine, shine grab and putting all of those together that causes those issues, and in the case of M 2 K, doing it for 10+ years and ignoring the issues when the warning signs appeared and never seeking medical attention. And I specifically said the generic tech skill, some characters have harder individual tech.

Wobbling is not technically a glitch, you're not supposed to break out of a grab within so much time of being hit, but no characters pummels can cause that. Problem is that ice climbers can hit you seperately of their pummel. It's not an ice climber specific thing either, as you can see it happen in teams. And wobbles doesn't hate wobbling, he'll still do it when he enters brackets if he needs to. What he hates is ice climbers not learning to do anything except wobbling, as he sees it as a crutch.

Sm4sh's advanced tech is mostly carried over from brawl, like wave bouncing and b reversal. And they for require anything like what Melee requires. I have slow fat fingers that are unable to perform most of Melee's skills, but I can do most sm4sh consistently. What the meta game focus is, and SHOULD BE, on is not reading your opponent. It's having a super strong grip of the fundamentals. Not that reads aren't involved, but all the reads in the world won't help if you can't act on them.

edited 24th Oct '16 12:13:50 PM by SFUTH

I felt that was more him stating that Smash has no future as a competitive game, not him saying that there won't be more Smash games.

I also don't think he has anything against the competitive crowd, he just prefers the casual crowd.

Sakurai also isn't the one who decides if there's going to be more Smash games.

That said, complicated inputs need to be avoided- If the skill gate is something on the physical realm like high-level dexterity that's a problem. People shouldn't destroy their hands to play games, geez.

Wavedashing is not as hard as other majorly long inputs. It's Hadouken level at best. That said, I agree that input commands destroys hands and that alone justifies it being gone.

However, an easier solution is that you would have a Wavedash button. You still need to properly aim it with the control stick, but the timing is far easier. It'd be more akin to how easy a Counter is to pull off. May or may not work balance-wise, though.

Also, yeah, the casual fanbase is the bigger one now for the series. But Sakurai definitely realizes that both fanbases are important to the game, and continues to cater to them. He learned from Brawl quite a bit. Hence the removal of random tripping, and RNG stuff being toned down a bit. Plus, major balance. He of course had a great company's help, as he's not so hot as balancing himself. And that's fine. We all have our good and bad points to how we do things. Human flaws, etc.

Wavedashing isn't a fun mechanic, is the thing. Useful, to be sure, but it and the derivatives from it- Wave-shines and the like- Aren't fun for most people.

And while pulling one off isn't too hard, you have to be able to pull several in extremely rapid succession to play Melee at the highest levels, which is something that almost no motion-input fighting game expects of anyone.

Exactly why I think it being gone is a good thing. But yeah, I said easy to pull off. Not easy to pull off in constantly. I completely agree.

That's mostly why I suggested an easier version, but now I realize that the problem is the control stick movements, not the button. An "easy wavedash button" won't help.

And a lot of players aren't really able to perform techniques like wavedashing.

Project M is what you get when you deliberately make Smash for a competitive audience. However, that's not a bad thing in terms of game quality.

I'd argue that Project M has too much of a competitive influence. Nothing's overpowered when everything is overpowered.

Well, that means it's perfectly balanced!

Honestly, I'd just like for people to not be jerks about what playstyle they have.

@SFUTH

Notice how that's December 2014. Let's see an updated article on his opinions.

It's like somebody is allowed...to change their mind about something.

Also, I think a recent column by Sakurai addressed that instead of the game having advanced tech, it's the individual characters with unique gimmicks is something he wants to push more for the competitive player base.

Or... I wasn't aware of that one. And it's not like the one I posted was a one off, he's said similar things regarding Melee, saying something along the lines of 'I don't know why someone would play like that'.

Wavedashing many times in rapid succession doesn't actually happen as often as people think. Those crazy waveshine-across-stage-and-back things don't happen often, the only characters that really need wavedashing constantly that are considered high tier are IC's. Everyone else uses them only occasionally, usually after a grab to begin a tech chase or to grab ledge to edge hog.

Project M... Is fun. Definitely made for the competitive audience but I think it's leagues ahead of brawl in just about every way. I wouldn't say that anything in PM is flat out "overpowered" though. That implies that it counters several options while being beaten by few/no options. Most characters' gimmicks have a way to be worked around. It's nowhere near as bad as Melee fox's shine, brawl IC chain grabs, or Brawl Meta Knights.... Being Meta Knight. In terms of everything being overpowered makes everything balanced, that's not PM, that's Brawl Minus.

Again. Changing his mind.