Game of Thrones [Potential Book Spoilers]

She could see the good in people where no one else could. She saw the good in Joffrey after all. :C

She's like Luke Skywalker.

Marge's description.

Marg Boleyn: This bicurious twenty-something from the sexual liberation capital of Wes-turd-ros, Sunspear Highgarden, really, really wants to be queen, for some reason. And not just any queen, THE queen, you guys. We think maybe the crown just goes really well with her outfit? When she isn’t scheming in everything EXCEPT the assassination of her almost-husband Joffrey, she’s taking her grandmother’s advice and molesting little boys or tormenting poor Carol by role-playing that they’re both on Real Housewives of King’s Landing.

lulz

edited 29th Apr '15 2:31:35 PM by MadSkillz

Hyperbolic though they may be, I agree with Skillz in this case. Book Cercei does have some positive aspects to her in spite of being a horrible person. She's not completely bad, though with this series that is a very, very low bar.

edited 29th Apr '15 2:32:47 PM by Northwind

I really enjoy Cersei.

She definitely has some personality disorder. Don't know if you ever heard of the term but Cersei does a lot of splitting.

Jaime's description:

Larry Lannister: The second-oldest Lannister deserves our pity because he seems to have some kind of multiple personality disorder, or something. There are times that he is tormented by the conflict between his internal and external honour and wants to carve his own place in history on his own terms, but there are other times when he’s totes excited about building upon his father’s legacy and would totally give up being a Kingsguard and make absurdly high opening bids when negotiation for his brother’s life. Sometimes he’s very concerned about the consequences of speaking too openly about the twincest, but sometimes, man, he just wants to fuck his sister on the nearest flat surface. Consent is optional in these situations. Poor Larry is kind of dense, but don’t worry, he has Carol to explain things to him.

lulz

edited 29th Apr '15 2:43:03 PM by MadSkillz

I remember a common theory being that Cercei has some type of Borderline Personality Disorder. It certainly fits with the splitting thing.

I doubt she has BPD. People with BPD are extremely empathetic until their emotions overwhelm them at which point it turns off. Plus she'd be in constant need of affection.

She more likely has a Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Narcissists want acknowledgement. And they also do splitting.

edited 29th Apr '15 2:58:10 PM by MadSkillz

I enjoy both Cersei's. Show Cersei is harder to deal with because of the whitewashing of Tyrion and the show's refusal to have him be the bad guy in any scenario (hyperbole).

Yeah I like Cersei and Carol.

Is it really hyperbole though? Last episode they had Tyrion pick up on a sex slave by showering her with attention and compliments. And then realizing she was a slave, he gave the "no I can't do this for I am too noble" speech.

I see show!Tyrion as oddly close to the idea of Tyrion in Martin's initial draft- basically someone who is a good guy but for the fact that he's on the opposing side.

Which is not a bad characterization- it's just a different characterization than Martin's (and IMO it wouldn't work to have a Tyrion as big of an asshole as book!Tyrion especially because the audience wouldn't be privy to his POV).

At the same time though, Tyrion does have flaws in the show. He's a drunk and is sex-obsessed (although that was downplayed while he was with Shae), but more crucially, he's always been rather egotistical and in love with his own wit. And I guess most of all, there's this "apathy" to Tyrion- like he's kind to those he knows, but unlike say Jon or Dany, he doesn't really go out of his way to do good.

I think you misinterpreted the scene. He turned her down because he couldn't get it up (killing your girlfriend will do that to you). It had nothing to do with nobility (although as you note, he was nice to her). Her being a slave didn't come into it (although not sure slave is quite the right term- she had the tattoo I think indicating she was sold into prostitution, but it seemed like she would be receiving money for services, as opposed to someone owning her).

edited 29th Apr '15 3:06:46 PM by Hodor2

I don't think that makes sense. They didn't even get to the bedroom. Like why would he need to get get it up before he even goes in there. Hell they hadn't even tried foreplay yet.

If she's sold into prostitution that makes her a sex slave. :V

The dialogue is basically him charming her and then her "inviting him up", at which point he rebuffs her because to his surprise, he can't get aroused (implicitly as an effect of his recent experiences).

It has nothing to do with him being noble/refusing because she's a slave (she is, although she seems fairly ok with the situation). I'm kind of confused how you thought that was what the scene was about.

edited 29th Apr '15 3:15:23 PM by Hodor2

Was that from an Inside the Episode interview?

I'm highly skeptical that that's the case.

From what I saw it looked like he noticed the slave tattoo on her.

Well most people I see are on a similar page as me. You're the first person I've seen say it's because he couldn't get it up.

Attribute it to bad writing. Just like LF's prostitutes giving Pod free sex.

edited 29th Apr '15 3:17:29 PM by MadSkillz

The dialogue is literally all about Tyrion not being able to get aroused and there's nothing suggesting this has to do with her being a slave. I have no idea where you and others are getting the idea that it is about "Saint Tyrion" refusing to have sex with a slave.

I do see the Unfortunate Implications, but it's basically a combo of Penny's Happiness in Slavery and the Unproblematic Prostitution of Chataya's in the books.

edited 29th Apr '15 3:20:46 PM by Hodor2

Because he looks at her hand(maybe her slave tat was on there) and it looks like he just had an epiphany (like whoa this is a sex slave maybe I shouldn't).

Or as others say he realizes he doesn't want to be with another prostitute.

To be fair to the latter, Chataya's running a high class escort service.

And to the former, even Tyrion calls Penny out on it.

edited 29th Apr '15 3:24:48 PM by MadSkillz

Varys notes in exposition that prostitutes have tear tattoos on their eyes, which IIRC she does, and which Tyrion would have noticed the moment he saw her- so, there's nothing in the scene suggesting he didn't initially know she was a slave and then realized it.

I do agree with the general idea that he realized he didn't want to be with another prostitute (the realization coming from his not being aroused)- which presumably relates to his relationship with Shae.

edited 29th Apr '15 3:23:58 PM by Hodor2

I'll have to rewatch the scene later then.

Still that assumption makes Tyrion even more of a Sue since he's even lost whoring as a flaw. :l

So basically right now then his big flaw is that he drinks a lot and I guess he's depressed.

pls don't let the show end with Sansa x Tyrion

Although the show kinda craps on the idea that Sansa will end up with Tyrion in the books at the end.

edited 29th Apr '15 3:32:57 PM by MadSkillz

If memory serves, didn't Tyion pretty much rape that slavegirl in the books?

Twice right after he had just been dipped in a lake of infectious greyscale and being told that the disease may be latent.

edited 29th Apr '15 3:49:29 PM by MadSkillz

Indeed. It's why I'm not that big on them cutting it out. You can show a character is grey without having them rape a sex slave.

Possibly. Of course, there's an argument over whether or not NPD is even a thing, but that's a whole boat of controversy I'm not informed enough to get into.

edited 29th Apr '15 3:52:02 PM by Northwind

I don't see Tyrion in the show as being a Sue- I don't think having a lack of serious flaws makes one a Sue. I mean Davos doesn't really have any noticeable flaws (unless you count hsi friendship with Stannis and Saan), but he's not a sue.

And Tyrion does have flaws- he egotism/need to be the center of attention, his drinking, and his whoremongering- the combination of them is what got him kidnapped by Jorah (even though he didn't go through with the latter).

And for that matter, although he does have serious flaws, the book version of Tyrion seems a lot more sueish to me because of the greater emphasis on him always being the smartest guy in the room/scoring points off of others (for my money, Tyrion in ADWD is a striking example of a Jerk Sue).

I think fundamentally, Tyrion in the show lacks the cruelty of his book counterpart and the result is someone who is a light grey versus a dark grey.

edited 29th Apr '15 4:00:44 PM by Hodor2

I don't think this is showing that Tyrion is gray. This is showing that Tyrion is an awful person.

It also parallels Jaime's path at least within the books where Jaime starts to punish people for raping Pia, Tyrion is on the other continent raping a sex slave.

Jaime goes from Villain to Hero and Tyrion goes from Hero to Villain.

It's also a slight bit of social commentary on sex slavery.

Tyrion's super-smart but being super-smart does not make one a sue. Or else Varys and LF would be sues. (Although I admit LF has been edging towards Villain Sue since AFFC) See book Tyrion isn't a Jerk Sue because he's never played up as being as being an ideal person.

edited 29th Apr '15 4:07:46 PM by MadSkillz

That's true, but you basically have a character who is obnoxious and totally despicable, but is also played up as smarter than everyone else and with an amazing ability to get out of difficult situations. And while Tyrion sort of loses his Plucky Comic Relief status for part of the book, it's back toward the end and is definitely present in the TWOW excerpts.

It's like I know on some level Martin obviously doesn't approve of Tyrion, but he's still writing a character who has no empathy/self-insight and exists to be witty and cool.

Of course, a big caveat is that I don't know where Tyrion will end up (although I figure it's the same place in book or show), both in terms of outcome and moral state.

I definitely agree though on Tyrion and Jaime going in opposite directions (and regret the show kind of dropping the ball in Jaime's case- although perhaps he'll get there this season). At the same time, I think with Jaime, while he becomes a better person, he thinks he's changed more than he actually has.

edited 29th Apr '15 4:10:16 PM by Hodor2

Frankly, even if we accept that Tyrion's is being whitewashed, I'd trade rape for whitewashing.

The fact that people are complaining that his scene with the prostitute didn't play out like in the books is disturbing.

I'm still banking on the fact that Tyrion dies.

But I'm thinking that D&D will kill him off in a way that'll illicit more personal feels from us so that might explain why they're making him more of a good guy.

Whereas with GRRM, I get the impression that he might have him die as a Complete Monster. Perhaps an unmourned one.

This sounds more like Littlefinger.

Yeah, I think I've gotten that impression too. I think it has something with the fact that GRRM enjoys writing Tyrion a lot. (He has the most chapters within the books although Jon is catching up)

I didn't need that scene at all. They should just not have included it at all to begin with. What bothers me the most about that scene though is how they portray sex slaves.

What someone else says on it:

edited 29th Apr '15 4:19:23 PM by MadSkillz

OK, cool. For some reason I read your other comment as "rape needed to make Tyrion anti hero" rather then "rape shows how far Tyrion has fallen". The latter is way less problematic then the former (though it still has it's issues).

Sue's not the right word, but I'd agree with Hodor that Martin doesn't manage Tyrion's fall as well as he could have because he's back to being old witty Tyrion by the end of ADWD. I just can't be amused by a character whose an unrepentant rapist with zero self-reflection. Might that be the point? Sure, in fact it probably is the point. But it just wasn't handled in a way I found personally satisfying.

Plus, after last year, do you really want the showrunners to try and handle a Tyrion rape scene? They fucked up enough with Jaime as it is.

Didn't think of it that way, but it's certainly a valid reading. I forget, was the woman in that scene charging or not?

edited 29th Apr '15 4:23:41 PM by Northwind

I should mention that I dislike the term whitewashed in this context. Whitewashing implies covering up character flaws. It doesn't seem the right term to me to talk about a character being more sympathetic/otherwise having Adapatational Heroism in an adaptation (because on some level, they inherently aren't the same character as they were in the original work).

For me, whitewashing would be a situation wherein the character is still kicking the dog, but the work presents that in a positive light- most likely through demonizing their opponents.

Like if show!Tyrion was show!Tyrion but show!Cersei was as evil as book!Cersei, that would be whitewashing.

edited 29th Apr '15 4:24:19 PM by Hodor2