Warhammer 40,000

The Astartes are, fundamentally, supposed to be the very best humanity can muster-they are not grown in labs, or get their brains transplanted into cybernetic bodies/war machines/vehicles. They are chosen from the best prospects, then comprehensively improved without rewriting their genetics or replacing much of anything-the Black Carapace, Mucranoid, Betcher's Gland, Sus-an Membrane, micro bead...all of them are additions or expansions of existing capabilities.

You do not see most chapters stuffing their skulls with esoteric detection gear, wielding integrated weapons, or other random stuff just because they can, even when those things are clearly available. They only replace parts that are destroyed to restore functionality, not because they view the flesh as weak. Most of the Mechanicus replaces their flesh because they view it as inferior, and deliberately distance themselves from their biological origins; that is directly antithetical to the purpose and mandate of the Astartes, which is why the Iron Hands post-Heresy get so much shit.

edited 21st Dec '17 3:12:19 PM by ViperMagnum357

Going by The lexicanum's Making of a Space Marine page it's a little further than that.

A second heart is not something that it natural to humans. (Time Lords yes, humans, no). The Ossmodula turns their bones into bullet proof ceramics. Larraman's Organ releases biological sealants into the blood stream. The Catalepsean Node and Sus-an Membrane profoundly alter neurological function while the Omophagea adds completely new abilities unheard of in baseline humans. The Oolitic Kidney and Multi-lung again add extra organs. The Melanchromic Organ and Betcher's Gland have more in common abilities of certain reptiles than humans. Finally the Black Carapace is a fricking bio-computer in all but name.

And this isn't getting into some of the other implants that Primaris Marines get (which is well after Ferrus was making these criticisms). Especially the Sinew Coils.

But the point remains the the line between Bio-augmentation and cybernetics is not as clear and bright as Ferrus Manus makes out. And given how heavily the Astartes are augmented, its not a huge leap to go further and decide that bio-tech is at it's current limit and to go further one needs to switch to mechanical options.

Space Marines are chosen from the best of humanity, and then have that humanity systematically stripped from them so they can become the Angels of Death that the Imperium needs them to be. That Marines have become separated from humanity by their upgrades is a thing that keeps coming up in the lore, particularly when it comes to the Marines' actions, where even the nice ones periodically fail to understand how ordinary humans work. (Look at Know No Fear, for example, where the Heresy-era Ultramarines expect Legion-level precision from civilian cargo-loaders and contact port authorities over a delay of a few minutes.)

And yes, you don't see the Marines using a lot of cybernetics, but you also don't see any Marine who's earned the Black Carapace wearing camouflage. "Marines don't do a thing" isn't the same thing as "Marines shouldn't do a thing".

As for "antithetical to the purpose and mandate for the Astartes", you'll have to forgive me if I'm a bit skeptical about the idea that the perfect-warrior blueprints drawn up by a dictator for his plan to wage genocidal war across the stars are somehow imbued with moral superiority.

edited 21st Dec '17 3:54:40 PM by CountDorku

I am not defending the Emperor or his clearly wonky designs-simply pointing out that Astartes are the logical extreme of 'be all you can be'; they are supposed to, and frequently are, better than any unaugmented human at any task they are assigned. That most fall well short of that ideal is true, but that says more about them than the design.

And basically what I was saying is that Astartes, for all their augmentations, are still fundamentally human-no genetic alterations, and no straight up replacements; that places them firmly in the human camp, relative to the Mechanicus, Abhumans, and many of the pet projects of the Inquisition, like the Gland Warriors. The Iron Hands fundamentally reject that stance in favor of an outlook similar to the Mechanicus, thus get dumped on both in and out of universe.

Granted them the point is when the astartes lost their humanity, as loken show they still retain big part of it since they can fall on chaos by their flaws, by comparation with others, is Cap america inhuman because he is enhance by third object to be more than human?.

And looking Ferrus is how his sons are losing themselves into their obession with metal, again is not diferent how Fulgrim lost himself in his quest for perfection, allowing Fabius to pretty much remake the legion into monstrosities.

"Be all you can be! Have your body stuffed full of additional internal organs that will fundamentally rewire how every single thing about it works! Even your bones will be different!"

You can't hold people up as the peak of humanity when they've been explicitly and canonically severed from humanity in order to serve as its weapons, a point that, again, keeps coming up in the lore.

As for the no replacements thing, the logical extension of that sentiment is that cybernetics are fine as long as your bionic arm is in addition to your original arm instead of replacing it. Cybernetics also don't change your genetic code, they just lead to there being parts of your body that don't have one. Again, we're back to a dividing line that is nowhere near as hard and fast as you seem to think it is, being drawn for reasons that don't really make logical sense.

And yet they have to endure those modification, using them and preparing for combat, they are not machine ensamble to war, Space marines are more than the sum of their geneseed, something other players(specially imperial guard ones) fail to see.

Also again, you fail to see Manus refer to his metal hands, how it make great thing but he is relaying to much in it to the point of forgetting his own power and his legion is doing the same, kinda like Fulgrim did eventually.

Ah-this is it. You were looking for a logical argument; I was speaking to the in-universe reasoning, where the 'sacred human form' is venerated, and the Astartes are considered the pinnacle of humanity that has not be replaced with machine nor had its genetics artificially manipulated, because the Emperor said so.

edited 21st Dec '17 4:24:32 PM by ViperMagnum357

I tend not to pay attention to in-universe reasoning because 40K's in-universe reasoning is, more often than not, explicitly intended to be in-universe fascist apologia, long-unquestioned dogma, the ranting of a lunatic, or all three at once.

"You can't hold people up as the peak of humanity when they've been explicitly and canonically severed from humanity in order to serve as its weapons, a point that, again, keeps coming up in the lore. "

you can, in fact part of chaos marine reason to split was they fight for a imperium they will not rule, that was...hard for them.

And again, Ferrus is pretty much "dont forget of your own strengh" which it was Fulgrim did eventually, is not hard to see.

That could still be the reason, that Ferrus, however much, actually bought into that propaganda.

Whenever we talk about towering fascistic edifices propped up by lies, superstition, and deliberate ignorance, there's always a question of how much the people at the top buy into it. Ten thousand years is a long time to start using your own supply.

I suspect Manus feared that the Iron Hands would rely too much on cybernetics as crutches, much like how he had come to rely on his metal arms as crutches. This mindset probably started the very moment he realized that he was actually hesitant about removing the metal someday. He had become dependent on it.

He didn't want his Legion to go down that path. He feared they would stop trying to improve themselves in mind, body, and soul in favor of improving their cybernetics instead.

That's why he planned to remove the metal someday. He wanted to lead by example. But then Fulgrim chopped his head off.

As for the whole holy human form thing...there is some in-universe controversy over how "human" an Astartes is. They get by on the technicality that their augmentation process doesn't actually change their genetics. The same technicality the Mechanicus get by on despite making themselves into cyborgs. It's not entirely satisfactory for everyone involved, but most of the higher-ups in the Imperium aren't stupid enough to alienate their most powerful warriors and the providers of their noisemakers for that. For all its fascism and lip service to dogma, the Imperium is actually pretty willing to make pragmatic compromises. As long as you're not a filthy xeno, of course. And even then...<see the Ynnari>

edited 21st Dec '17 10:19:29 PM by M84

Well, there are probably no more than a handful of people outside the Custodes that have survived more than a couple thousand years; and the last big reformation ahead of Roboute getting up was around M36, When the Ecclesiarchy became the official Scary Amoral Religion and the Adeptus Terra was substantially reorganized. Even people with a full millenium under their belt by M41 would have been raised in a society that has been that way for thousands of years, with virtually no one still alive to remember what came before. I think anyone who has risen to a position of power without Drinking the Kool-Aid would be the exception.

Yep, pretty much everyone in a position of authority in the Imperium by the time of M41 was born and raised long after the Imperium went full Cult. It's one of the reasons Roboute is so dismayed by the state of the Imperium.

edited 21st Dec '17 8:44:35 PM by M84

M84: pretty much you are right, this work If you see his backstory: he promoted a lot self relience and Being blunt which is why he was so friend with Fulgrim, If anything Iron hand love of tech is counter part of emperor legion modification.

And yes, the astartes and the imperial church are uneasy about, I mean the marines as the holy order of the emperor, on the other hand they are barely human and stil práctice the imperial truth, is a tense situation for both.

Since we mentioned Fulgrim...anyone else think it's super creepy how he had Fabius Bile repeatedly clone Ferrus in a futile attempt to get his brother and former best buddy to join him? To say nothing of how every time Ferrus would refuse and attack him and Fulgrim would kill him again and blame Fabius for cloning him "wrong".

Was it ever mentioned how many times Fulgrim has had Ferrus cloned so far? I'm guessing it's at least in four digit territory.

And now I'm wondering exactly what part of Ferrus' body Fulgrim took to use as the source of the genetic material. It wasn't the head — Horus took the skull as a trophy and would frequently have conversations with it. Mostly to complain about how he was Surrounded by Idiots (Horus didn't have a very good opinion of his fellow Traitor Primarchs).

And no, it wasn't one of the arms. The Iron Hands took one of the arms and tried to build a Replacement Goldfish by attaching the arm to a robot. The other one gets regularly filed so that the shavings can be used in fancy blades.

...Man, Warhammer 40k lore is messed up.

edited 21st Dec '17 10:26:45 PM by M84

Fulgrim: Could you clone Ferrus if you had part of him?
Fabius: Absolutely.
Fulgrim: Then THE GAME IS AFOOT! (Brandishes Ferrus's right leg)
Fabius:
Fabius: I'll give you two clones if you promise to never say that again.
Fulgrim: Deal.

Traitor Marine #1: I have a report for Warmaster Horus!

Traitor Marine #2: Um, now's not a good time.

Traitor Marine #1: ...Is he talking to the skull again?

Traitor Marine #2: Yes, Lord Angron noticed a ding on one of his ships and slaughtered most of our repair crew in a fit of fury. The Warmaster was particularly peeved, so he's probably going to be a while.

Traitor Marine #1: <sigh>...alright I guess I'll give the report later. Say, want to go torture some slaves to pass the time?

Traitor Marine #2: Sure, I'm game.

Two Chaos Marines, upon finding Horus talking to the skull: NOPE◊

Given that Horus only has the skull, it's entirely possible that Fulgrim may have taken Ferrus' face off first.

I can picture Fulgrim spending his off-hours wearing Ferrus' face while looking in a mirror and repeating to himself "Yes, brother Fulgrim, you were right to abandon the False Emperor and I would be ecstatic to join your side once more!"

Horus shook his head and said, "We must always be civilised. You take a look at this fellow here." His bolt pistol barked, and the World Eater's head was a smoking ruin. "Now was that civilised? No, clearly not. Fun, but in no sense civilised."

The consensus seems to be that the immortality tropes would be generally inappropriate for one.

New TTS special! Eldrad and Vect have a douche-off.