The Order of the Stick

@Cozzer-

I don't completely agree on that part although I think part of what makes it work is that Haley talks about Crystal bringing out a nasty side of Haley's that Haley regrets having, but despite Haley overall development into a nice person, she still kills Crystal (again) in a hilariously cruel way without a second thought.

Because there isn't a contradiction between Haley treating people better (and losing her earlier Female Misogynist streak) and killing the dangerous and unrepentantly evil Crystal.

edited 29th Apr '15 12:57:46 PM by Hodor2

I think this arc proved a couple of things:

• Haley is more than capable of defeating threats with her wits; she doesn't need a melee tank to slaughter foes for her.
• Haley has grown to the point where she no longer needs to hold onto childish vendettas.
• Haley can lead enemies to their own destruction without once telling an overt lie.
• Crystal is/was a horrible person who needed to die.
• Bozzok is/was a horrible person who needed to die.

edited 29th Apr '15 1:00:56 PM by Fighteer

I... sincerely can't see where the Female Mysoginist thing came from, but that's what I like. Being a nice and good person doesn't mean you have to give everybody second, third and fourth chances, nor that you have to feel bad for everyone.

She did the clearly right thing, she goes eat breakfast without pointlessly spending time angsting over whether it was morally justified.

edited 29th Apr '15 1:01:33 PM by Cozzer

Quite.

Like I said before, the last time Haley left the guild wasn't an ending. She left in a fit of blood, rage, and greed. She still had a lot of growth to do.

This time is final, and part of the distinction is the parallel in killing Crystal. Last time she killed Crystal, it was guided by her sense of malice. She hated Crystal and wanted her to die. Here, killing Crystal is guided by her sense of justice. Crystal is a dangerous, unrepentant murderer who has openly expressed the intent to prey on random people, and Haley cannot in good conscience allow her to continue existing.

edited 29th Apr '15 1:02:21 PM by TobiasDrake

Cool? I mean, it's not morally any different than if she said "there's a delicious jar of pickles on that bridge", but it's good for a Rogue to have diverse tactics.

That's part of her character growth. She used to lie habitually; her persona was entirely based on presenting a facade to the world and bluffing her way through life. She has had to learn to trust that she can survive and even prosper by being honest.

That would've greatly improved the scene.

That's definitely a big part of her character growth, but I think to say her defeat of Crystal here reflects that growth is a bit of a stretch. Haley killed a rampaging monster via deceit. The technical details really don't change that.

edited 29th Apr '15 1:08:25 PM by spashthebandragon

@Tobias- Yeah, that's what I was trying to get at. Although Haley always had a quite good reason for disliking Crystal, the first time she killed her was out of malice and that Haley is also someone who insulted Crystal in a really misogynistic way and didn't get along with other female characters either (this is something brought to Burlew's attention which he now regrets- hence my use of the term Female Misogynist). I don't recall Haley butting heads with male strangers, but in any case, the Haley at the time she originally killed Crystal didn't really trust anyone anyway.

This time around, the killing was more out of justice, and was done by a Haley who bonds with Bandana and is friendly with the gnomes.

Again, where's the Female Misogynist come from?

Roy does that too. It's stupid to be bluntly forthright with someone you're about to murder. It's almost like you're treating her omission of that particular detail as a greater fault than the fact that she arranged for Crystal to die in the first place.

edited 29th Apr '15 1:17:38 PM by Fighteer

Hodor:It was partially malice but Haley also killed Crystal because she tried to get her killed when they stole Roy back from Grubwiggler.

edited 29th Apr '15 1:31:57 PM by Kostya

What? No, I'm fine with the manner in which Crystal was killed. I just don't think it's an indicator of character growth on Haley's part. I mean, I think Haley's defeat of Crystal is morally sound, it just made for a boring story, that's all. Frankly, I think Crystal should've stayed dead. Her original death was perfectly fine by me.

edited 29th Apr '15 1:27:28 PM by spashthebandragon

No, I just am saying you don't really get a gold star for deceiving someone while not actually saying a false statement. It's no worse or better than the alternative. Just a different way of going about it, albeit one that would work under a Zone of Truth spell.

Re Female Misogynist, see the OOTS entry on that trope's page.

Basically, Haley used a lot of gendered insults against that female bandit, Crystal, and (somewhat more understandably) Sabine, and there also was sometimes a Cat Fight aspect present.

And while unlike with them, I don't think she called her a slut and the like, Haley had a marked antipathy to Celia- which is understandable given their differing personalities, but it fits into this overall pattern of Haley not getting along with other women.

Burlew has made some comments on the forums about regretting this characterization and lampshaded this in the strip where as part of her character development, Haley seeks to befriend Bandana. And for the same reason, Laurin is not played for fan service and is antagonistic toward V instead of Haley.

Edit- I forget if this term actually came from the comic itself, but there were a lot of comments to the effect that Laurin would be Haley's natural opponent because Haley is always fighting "flying sluts", and I think this is one thing which prompted Burlew's Old Shame reaction.

edited 29th Apr '15 1:35:26 PM by Hodor2

Well, that's sort of an extremely weak reason for someone to be considered a misogynist, but it's true that it's Word of God. I had forgotten about that. Still, I don't think that's part of this whole Crystal thing.

Well, not directly. I was more getting at the idea of Haley developing into someone who gets along with others (which includes not hating other women), which plays into the different way in which she acts toward Crystal- but amusingly, doesn't contradict with Haley killing Crystal once again.

Haley does get on well with the ambiguously gendered V, though! She split a room with him/her! Although that might just be because she wanted V to feel her gemstones.

edited 29th Apr '15 2:19:36 PM by TobiasDrake

I'm not really seeing how Haley is a misogynist. She seems to get along fairly well with the female characters that aren't openly antagonistic.

Not always. She and Celia hated each other, not to mention her interactions with Miko - yes, everyone hated Miko, but she's still a point on the trend.

Haley gets on well with V, though, and I thought there was a female character in the Azure Resistance that Haley was pretty tight with too.

edited 29th Apr '15 2:45:56 PM by TobiasDrake

I'd put Miko in the openly antagonistic category even if she wasn't technically a villain.

Her dislike of Celia was mostly due to personality differences and even then she seemed to get along with her most of the time. It was only when Celia did something stupid or tried to push her pacifism on Haley that she got annoyed.

I think the only major problem is that Bandana, Tsukiko, Crystal, Miko, Celia, and Sabine are the only major female characters that Haley spent a lot of time around and she has valid reasons to hate most of them. Lien, Sangwan, Therkla, Niu, and Kazumi either never met her or didn't interact with her much on screen.

edited 29th Apr '15 2:52:53 PM by Kostya

Haley isn't misogynist so much as suffers (or did suffer) from Internalized Categorism.

On the contrary, Haley takes on a definite mentorship role to Niu — probably even inspiring her into taking a level in Rogue. As for Haley and Celia, it seems like they have the potential to be friends, but their particular flaws and viewpoints tend to clash really badly when it comes to, say, adventuring together.

I didn't mind Haley monologuing about all the character development she's undergone. It is, after all, the beginning of a new book, and some semi-unnecessary recaps are very in order. As Elan's girlfriend, Haley would have to know that. And Haley's method of disposing of Crystal (as well as her reasons) also showed her character development — she put trust in Bandana and the gnomes of the city to help her out. Last time it was a secret, unprovoked attack.

Also, all the debates about whether or not Haley's method of killing Crystal was heroic really seems to boil down to this◊...

essept Jackie cheated in acknowledged combat against a heroic opponent.

Something interesting I came across on the Giant forums- first, Rich did a Q&A.

Also, not sure if there was an announcement of it, but there's a new wallpaper- here it is◊. Probably not canonical, but interesting that it shows Bandanna as part of the team.

What Jack did worse arguably. It's one thing to stab a guy in the back. But cheating in a contest of skill when you clearly outmatch your opponent anyway is just insult to injury.