Girl Genius

"Klaus' system may not kill the wasp, but the Wulfenbachs WILL develop a cure. Bet on it./ http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20060731"

A few pages after that, we have this: Tarvek is humming or whistling, and the score seems rather like the shapes used for Agatha's Heterodyning. Is he just repeating what he heard? This is after he declares that the Spark-infector will hand them the empire, after he lays out his plan NOT to use it first on Klaus, and after the Two Others embarass him about his interest in Agatha.

So ... does he have some Heterodyne blood? What are his real intentions?

edited 25th Aug '09 2:28:16 PM by Greybeard Fan

That one could go anywhere. Too little info to make it clear. I am going with Tarvek having the ability to heterodyne, at least marginally. I think he's got the mojo, whether by normal descent, by Mongfish fiddling, or because the skill is more general in the Spark population than we've been shown previously.

But I also think he's never encountered it before he ran into Agatha. http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20060405 Definitely surprised "huh?" here.

This, though, is one more I add to the "insufficient data" classification. I'm waiting to learn more, and hoping that Tarvek "learning new music" will provide further plot elements. Basically it looks to me like for the time being all bets are still good.

Amendment: Having given it some more thought, I am intensifying my bet. I am pretty damned sure Tarvek can heterodyne, and that he's due to demonstrate the skill with Agatha in the very near future. Whether the result will sound like the mating call of the Irish Elk is an open question, though, and, well, I can come up with too many lovely reasons for the duet to risk a strong bet on any of 'em. I know why I would have them sing. But...I am not the Creators.

edited 25th Aug '09 4:06:14 PM by Hippogrif

It's possible that Euphrosynia Heterodyne bore a child to the Storm King, even though they were never actually married. And that that child was told who he was, and returned to the Storm King's line somehow. We have not one but two mentions of illegitimacy in the story line, both with regard to Agatha and her part in the Heterodyne bloodline. The first is at the tea with the Jaegergenerals: A by-blow? Dem?. The possibility of a distant cousin is also mentioned there. The second is when Adam and Lilith, with Agatha, run into Klaus: Or a surprise on Barry's part?

Could anyone, even a Spark, imitate Heterodyning?

There's one good reason for Tarvek to try: to suppress The Other in Agatha if that locket comes loose.

When Anevka tried to kill Agatha/Other, Tarvek stopped her. Whether this was to preserve Agatha or Lucrezia/Agatha/Other is unclear. Whether he would have survived the Geisterdamen had he not done so is especially not clear. Then, when he shut Clankevka down he was shaken afterwards by what he had done. In what way has this experience shaped him?

edited 25th Aug '09 4:27:01 PM by Greybeard Fan

Re: Prophecy.

Is it possible that the Othar Twitter stuff about everyone dead is one potential fulfillment of the "Peace to Europa" prophecy, in that case with Klaus as the "Storm King" and Otheroid Agatha as the Heterodyne Girl?

The term "Peace to Europa" is as open and ambiguous as the definition of the Storm King.

Oh...and I'm not sure that the term "imitating heterodyning" is meaningful. If it's close enough to actually pass as heterodyning, well, it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and for all practical purposes would be a duck.

The sound and the affect seem to go together.

Or not....

Was wondering if the Sword and Gear of Sturmhalten is intended as a sword thrust through a gear, to bring the works to a halt, or a Sword to be removed from a gear, returning function and being a very nice sword in the stone allusion....

Added:

(Hysterical giggles) Went back to look up the Two Others embarrassing Tarvek. LOL! I had been betting for my own reasons he was, er, inexperienced. But it does indeed look like we're three for three unicorn riders in the lab right now. Betcha Moloch and Violetta each have more experience, er, under the belt than any of our three sparklettes.

edited 25th Aug '09 4:49:06 PM by Hippogrif

Lots of WMG going on so I think I’ll join in. First a round of applause to the Foglio’s for there Hugo win. (Even if most of the judges were from a parallel universe)

Tarvek needs to worry about his reviving getting out. While most of the people in the room would keep it a secrete Gil wont. For one he doesn’t like Tarvek and this predates him finding out he was also trying to win Agatha. Also Tarvek is a not only a rival in a romantic sense but a political one as well. Both of them are claiming to be the rightful heir to the throne of Europa. Tarvek is neck deep in a conspiracy to kill the Wulfenbach’s and takes over their empire. This conspiracy is also allied with the Other. Based on this neither Gil nor Klaus would ever think of letting Tarvek have the throne. By letting people know Tarvek was killed and revived Gil eliminates him as a threat and hurts the Knights of Jove since it takes out the heir they have been grooming for years.

As for who would take Tarvek’s place that wont be an issue since its all but assured that now that Gil and Klaus know about the Order the first thing they will do once things are settled in Mechanicsburg is wipe them out. Rule number one of being a despot eliminate your rivals permanently. This might upset Agatha but it won’t stop the Wulfenbach’s. Gil is his fathers son, if he feels the cause is justified he has no problem with spilling blood no matter who it upsets, even the women he loves.

<<There's one good reason for Tarvek to try: to suppress The Other in Agatha if that locket comes loose.>>

Ooooh, I hadn't thought of THAT one, but I LIKE it. I'm more inclined to suspect some form of joint sparkery, myself. "Saving Gil after the Si Vales Valeo Mostly Works" is among my pet theories. But I am a sopping great sentimentalist, and kind of want the boys even on "I saved your life," into the bargain.

<<When Anevka tried to kill Agatha/Other, Tarvek stopped her. Whether this was to preserve Agatha or Lucrezia/Agatha/Other is unclear.>>

Huh. Could go either way...

<< Whether he would have survived the Geisterdamen had he not done so is especially not clear. Then, when he shut Clankevka down he was shaken afterwards by what he had done. In what way has this experience shaped him? >>

Tarvek's like Agatha in that so very many things have happened to shatter his "known" reality and so little time has been allowed to process and integrate the experience that there's really no knowing how the experience shaped him. It's been, what — something like three days total, possibly four since Anevka-Clank killed Aaronev? And at least one of the days since he's been either injured, cruising on Moveit #6, or delirious? Even Agatha has had more time to process, if only due to not being injured, drugged and hallucinating. And she's not even through processing Adam and Lilith's "deaths" yet, and that's been months. As for her feelings about Lars...floating in the ether, far from dealt with.

Assuming that she's allowed to process in the first place. The Foglios are not permitting their characters much brooding time all said and done.

<<<<Lots of WMG going on so I think I’ll join in. First a round of applause to the Foglio’s for there Hugo win. (Even if most of the judges were from a parallel universe)>>>

Wild applause added. Whoot! Whoot!

<<Tarvek needs to worry about his reviving getting out. While most of the people in the room would keep it a secrete Gil wont. For one he doesn’t like Tarvek and this predates him finding out he was also trying to win Agatha. Also Tarvek is a not only a rival in a romantic sense but a political one as well.

<<snip of good reasoning, for the interests of compression>>

<<Rule number one of being a despot eliminate your rivals permanently. This might upset Agatha but it won’t stop the Wulfenbach’s. Gil is his fathers son, if he feels the cause is justified he has no problem with spilling blood no matter who it upsets, even the women he loves. >>

All true unless Gil and Tarvek end up forced unwillingly onto the same side, which seems possible. Klaus will know by now — or will know soon — the entire material Selnikov knew or believed. That is going to change his priority stack immediately, especially if it looks like Agatha AND Gil may be allying with Tarvek. And many a promising son has turned against his fatehr. Despots pay attention to that sort of thing. More to the point I am willing to bet that at some point in the future the question stops being "my side'/your side" soon and becomes "any port in a storm, any ally in a pinch" and Tarvek will become the devil Gil knows well enough to accept. Reluctantly and with much creative swearing, but, yes, accept.

All made more complex by the fact that Tarvek has already proven to be playing the Order for suckers in some sense. Their goals don't appear identical with his.

edited 25th Aug '09 5:35:53 PM by Hippogrif

Lucrezia/The Other. It seems that I am in the minority here since I just don’t buy into the whole The Other is some other thing that took over Lucrezia and made her do all these awful things. I have always believed that the simplest explanation is usually the right one. Lucrezia was always evil and everything she has done was part of her plan to take over the world. The Other is just an alias she used so no one would know it was her behind it all, that’s it.

First Klaus learns that the Other devices are based on the same style as Lucrezia just more advanced. The more advanced nature of the machines can be justified in that she was married to a Heterodyne and so had access to the castles labs and library. With these resources and her own genius she could have easily developed more advanced technologies to further her goals.

The Geisterdamen state flat out that Lucrezia is the Other. Whatever irregularities that exist in the official telling of the attack on the castle and the Other War is due to the fact most people don’t know that Lucrezia is the Other. The Geisterdamen claim that Lucrezia is their goddess but we also know that there is a faction that disputes this. The most likely explanation is that Lucrezia found the Geisterdamen civilization, learned about their goddess, and then pretended to be her to gain the geisterdamen’s loyalty.

Her involvement with the Knights of Jove was also part of her plan for conquest. Like the Geister’s she took over and is using them for her own ends. Anevka’s rebellion was due to the fact that many seemed to have figured this out end wanted the move the Order back to trying to restore the Storm King rather then keep serving Lucrezia. When Klaus sees her at the circus he recognizes her as the women he knew years ago even if she is in a different body.

As for her rebirth into Agatha, my guess is that some time during the Other War her original body was destroyed (possibly by Bill while Barry went and got Agatha) and they needed the right host for her to be reborn in. Zola said that one of the things Lucrezia did for the order was make sure a proper heir would be born. Since the only way the prophecy could work would be if there was a Heterodyne girl she just made one of those as well. While I don’t think Agatha and Tarvek are test tube babies I would bet good money that Lucrezia did work on them while they were in the womb to make sure they came out like she wanted. Since Lucrezia wanted to rule directly downloading into Agatha could have been her plan from the beginning with events derailing and delaying things for a while.

Given how cold, calculating, and ruthless she is why did she spare Klaus or marry Bill in the first place. Simple, even evil overlords have feelings. She spared Klaus out of sentiment nothing more. Her reaction when Tarvek tells her about Klaus shows that she never expected him to come back. She married Bill because she needed access to Castle Heterodyne and his seed. I think for a time she did care about him and maybe even considered giving up the whole scheme but in the end she just couldn’t do it. She just wanted to win to badly and betrayed her husband and her children. In this case love just wasn’t enough.

Rule number one of being a despot eliminate your rivals permanently. This might upset Agatha but it won’t stop the Wulfenbach’s. Gil is his fathers son, if he feels the cause is justified he has no problem with spilling blood no matter who it upsets, even the women he loves.

But the Baron doesn't want to be a despot. He is because that was the only way to stop the warring that was destroying Europa in the wake of the Heterodyne's disappearance and the Other War. If he could find someone who he thought would be able to keep the peace as well he'd turn the job over to her/him and happily go back to his experiments. See?

One more thing: When Lucragatha and Mecha-Lucrezia meet, here, they both greet each other as "Lucrezia". Implying that the Other does identify herself as Lucrezia. So that's a strike against theories that she downloaded herself over Lucrezia like she did Agatha.

Or, possibly, that her first human incarnation was as Lucrezia and it's the only "human" ID she has.

One thing that's confusing is that she doesn't seem to know anything of Agatha's life before invasion, or what happens when Agatha is awake. It's less clear if she has any knowledge of Lucrezia's life when not Othering.

She does appear to have very real sentimental connections to at least two of her associated males: Klaus and Wilhelm. So whether she's a Lucrezia gone utterly evil or an alien template overwritten on a Lucrezia body, or a merger between the two, she's capable of some form of emotional entanglement.

I still think she's an overwrite onto an existing Lucrezia. But it's a long way from proven either way.

Oh, and while I'm here (like I'm not always here while the OCD fit lasts,) is anyone here old enough to help me with this? My visual memory is good, but not quite good enough.

The bird in the left hand upper frame, on the window sill: I am sure I have seen it's close kin before, but can't recall if it's in Walt Kelly's stuff, in Dr. Suess, or some other place. But I'm fairly sure it's an homage. I think. Maybe. Dang it, it keeps bothering me that I can't place it, when it insists that it could be placed if I could just remember...

http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20081001

Your right Madrugada he would give up the throne if he found the right person but Tarvek is not that person. His involvement with the Other alone would disqualify him in Klaus’s eyes. For Klaus the only worthy heir at the moment is his son. Also while Gil and Tarvek could work together in the short term in the long term they are destined to be enemies. They both want the same things, to marry Agatha and rule Europa. These are not things that can not be shared. For now they will work together but sooner or later they will end up opposing each other to get what they want. The only way to avoid this is of one of them gives up and walks away. Since I can’t see either of them doing that the only other end to this a fight to the death. I mean that literally. Tarvek wants to be Storm King that means he has to kill off the current ruling family, which includes Gil, in order to secure his rule. Exile is too risky since it leaves the possibility of Wulfenbach resurgence and the Order, the Fifty Families, and the Other that are backing him will push for an execution. The moment Tarvek gives him an excuse Gil will kill him. Let’s not forget the Wulfenbach family motto “I can be ruthless but I try to be fair”. Gil will give Tarvek one chance for Agatha’s sake to walk away, if he doesn’t then out comes the swords.

Technically, rule could be shared. It's Agatha that might object to the sharing, although Der Kestle would no doubt rejoice to have to high-pedigree sparks in the harem.

I think Tarvek is getting a bit of a bad rep from his heel-face revolving door situation, perhaps slightly more than he deserves. Is he ambitious? Yes. Trustworthy? No. But what are his goals? That's the crucial question. He's got the personality of a shark, sure, but not necessarily a dishonorable one. He shouldn't be discounted just because he's a pragmatist.

His first action upon finding out that Agatha was the holy child was to try and get her out (he even uses this as a defense at one point), in stark contrast to both his sister and his father. At that point I think he wanted Lucrezia downloaded solely into the Anevka chassis, from which he could attempt information extraction before destroying her covertly. However, when Agatha let herself be recaptured by the Geisters (not actually something she had much control over, sure, but she didn't try hard to resist), he had to change his plans considerably, and he wasn't immune to the fact that this provided him an additional means of obtaining the information he was after (control of the revenants, I believe). The initial attempt to get Agatha out of it all, however, is counterbalanced by his destruction of her musical dingbots later, allowing the Other to regain control. The crucial question here is, why? With the castle crawling with Geisters, he may not have felt he had much choice. I think, ultimately, it was actually Vrin he was trying to counterbalance most in that bit of intrigue, not Lucrezia or Anevka. If she'd shown up when Agatha was Agatha, they were both toast (as is clearly shown later). Note something important here, though: He doesn't trust Agatha, at this point. Not in the "she's going to destroy me" sense, but in the "she's not capable of furthering my goals" sense. Sure, he's now putting his life in her hands, but he doesn't have much choice and he knows she's a strong spark. That's not quite the same sort of trust he'd need to be an actual hero in this tale.

Does he want Lucrezia's secrets? Sure. He's smarmy enough to think he can get them, too. He CAN'T, but then, he's got the same fatal flaw that Klaus has: he lacks the humility to realize the rare occasions when he's wrong. And it's that perhaps fatal flaw that led to him trying to use Agatha in the way he did in Sturmhalten. He firmly believed he could get away with having his cake and eating it too.

I think ultimately (and somewhat predictably) it WILL be Gil who wins Agatha's heart, and Tarvek who (tragically, in the literary sense) gets the boot. Because even if she doesn't realize it, Agatha can trust Gil in a way she'll never be able to trust Tarvek. Tarvek, quite simply, has his priorities set as: Tarvek first, Agatha second; Gil puts Agatha first, and himself somewhere around nowhere, to the point where when forced to confront a world without her in it, he starts to self-destruct in a way that worries Wooster.

Now, that may not be healthy (although it did provide him with a level in badass), but contrast that to how Tarvek would react to news of Agatha's death. He may grieve momentarily, but his ultimate reaction would be based on how it affected his ambitions.

Locket: May simply have been fixed by Moloch. He's an engineer, and a good enough one to identify an obscure tool on sight. And inventing a device isn't the same as repairing it.

http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20031128

<<I think Tarvek is getting a bit of a bad rep from his heel-face revolving door situation, perhaps slightly more than he deserves. Is he ambitious? Yes. Trustworthy? No. But what are his goals? That's the crucial question. He's got the personality of a shark, sure, but not necessarily a dishonorable one. He shouldn't be discounted just because he's a pragmatist. >>

Well, we don't agree on Lucrezia and the Other, but we do agree on this...(grin)

Mmmm. And I actually think he's going to turn out to be pivotal in getting Lucrezia's secrets. Not necessarily the way he expected, but he's done the ground work, and appears to have as much experience with at least his father's collection of Other-tech as anyone out there.

I am still working on the one bit...hang on...

Ok, fifth frame, Tarvek's line of reasoning:

http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20060407

IF he's telling the truth in some way, on some level, about something he really cares about — which is still unclear — THEN he's taking enormous risks that, yes, only he is in a position to take to learn how Lucrezia's tech works. And he doesn't need it for his plans: he already has the information he needs to complete the takeover of Europa, as near as I can tell. Adding layers, well...

I don't know WHAT Tarvek's complete motive set is. But I am sure he's got a complete one, if only 'cause of a comment P Foglio made in one of the podcast interviews (no, I don't know which one) about making sure that everyone (except Bang) was doing things that made perfectly good sense to them no matter what it looked like from outside...with a sense of him meaning "good sense from a "fair and just" POV." As I recall the subject came up by way of Klaus and how everything he does can be justified as both fair and reasonable given his background and information.

So, if Tarvek, too, is doing something perfectly fair and sensible given his background and information, and he sees himself as the only one who may be in a position to learn how the Other's tech works, it may be to support his ambitions. But it may also be to learn something to help save Europa from losing a deadly arms race against an invader.

Or something else entirely. We don't know yet, so near as I can tell.

I do hate being patient and waiting, except guessing in the meantime is such good fun.

edited 25th Aug '09 7:27:21 PM by Hippogrif

Brickman: One more thing: When Lucragatha and Mecha-Lucrezia meet, here, they both greet each other as "Lucrezia". Implying that the Other does identify herself as Lucrezia. So that's a strike against theories that she downloaded herself over Lucrezia like she did Agatha.

Maybe the Anevka thing was foreshadowing, and the Other thinks she's Lucrezia!

I dunno.

Good point on the identifying as Lucrezia, but that may be long habit, too. She was the Other at least as far back as Klaus' disappearance (we know this because she was surprised he came back, which implies she knew where she sent him), and I'd suspect much, much longer. Given enough time in Agatha's body and then thrust into the same circumstances, she may well have called herself Agatha.

Still, a definite point to consider. We do need more information about all of it.

Sorry Hippogriff but the closest thing I can think of are those vultures that Bugs Bunny always fooled in the old loonytoon cartoons.

As for Lucrezia her lack of knowledge about current events that can be written up to the fact that while she was waiting to be downloaded she was in a form of suspended animation (mentally speaking that is) and so has no idea what has been going on for the last 18 years. Also while Agatha and Lucrezia share a body they do not share knowledge or experiences. Agatha’s adventures is Strumhalten show that neither knew what the other was doing and were relying on Tarvek to keep them informed. That the them share a body only made things more confusing.

The downloaded versions of seem Lucrezia know a lot about her life before being taken out of action at the end of the Other War but never brought it up much because there was no need. We also can’t forget that she does acknowledge that Agatha is her daughter http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20061115 Clearly she is doing her best to win the worst parent of the decade award (though I think Avatar’s Fire Lord Ozai will giver some major competition for it)

Wilhlem 2:

Um, regarding Lucrezia/Other and Agatha's memories. Exactly. We know that their knowledge sets don't overlap. Agatha is not L/O and L/O isn't Agatha, and they share nothing but a body.

It is not established whether Lucrezia and the Other are one and the same, in terms of memory or experience. So far as I can recall the only mentions L/O has made regarding the past would leave it wide open whether she was an overwrite that functioned on Lucrezia as she does on Agatha, or if she was a Lucrezia gone evil with full memory back to childhood, or a merger with portions of Lucrezia's memories not integrated. As near as I can tell L/O in both Agatha and the Clank body have spoken only of the past in ways that touch on times from Klaus's kidnapping onwards, and have never indicated any memory blanks not accounted for by the time she simply was not there and was awaiting download.

Hmmm.

Ok, here's another idea, while we're chatting. IF there are many possible copies of the Other, and yes, we know there can be two...

Then what if the downloaded Other is merely the last backup copy of an Other Prime which was waging the war in Europa? So the Other backs her own memory up and gets killed later in the cycle. Then there's the chance that Aga Other and Clank Other have no more idea of how she failed last time than Other Prime would have had at the time of making the backup copy. They may be as ignorant of what happened as everyone else.

edited 25th Aug '09 8:01:42 PM by Hippogrif

Tarvek’s motive is actually very simple. Become the Storm King. Everything he has done has been done to further that goal. He was against reviving Lucrezia because he knew she would be calling the shots and he would just be a puppet. He tried to get Agatha out because he knew what the Geisterdamen would use her to revive Lucrezia and that his sister would kill her. Remember by that point he knew she was a Heterodyne and knows the importance a Heterodyne princes plays in his ascension to the throne. He wants her to be a willing partner in his ambitions so works to win her over by helping her. Once Lucrezia came back he had to show loyalty or die. He also had to keep Klaus at bay and in the dark since if he found out Klaus would not stop hunting him until he was dead. Remember from Klaus’s point of view anyone who willingly works for the Other would be traitors and have to be dealt with accordingly. Tarvek has been juggling so many loyalties that it’s been hard to keep track, his goal however has never changed. To be king.

While I admit his constant yet inevitable betrayals do put me off him it is the fact that he will end up betraying Agatha again that really cools me to him. Like I said his main goal is to be king. If for whatever reason Agatha gets in the way of that he will turn on her. This isn’t to say that Gil is incapable of turning on Agatha, he is, but he would do it for different reasons. Gil like his father has a strong sense of duty and obligation to those under his care. Gil has already said that while does love Agatha he won’t endanger innocent lives for her. http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20080414 He has also said that if Agatha does turn into a danger he would deal with her himself. http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20081003 Both are capable of turning on Agatha the difference is the reason. If Tarvek does it, it will be to serve his ambitions. If Gil does it, it will be because he sees her as a threat to the lives of other and there is no other choice.

Your idea of back up memories and not knowing the full details of how her main body “died” at the end of the war makes sense. I would love to keep this debate going but it is almost 11pm here on the east cost and I have work tomorrow. See you guys later.

About the "Tarvek's getting a bad rep" thing—here's a counterargument. If you stuck Klaus, the Other and a knife in the same room as each other, Klaus knew it was the other and he didn't know anything about the summoning engine, one or both of them would have a good chance of leaving that room dead, no matter how many armed priestesses the other had on hand, even if it'd throw his empire into chaos to do so. He wouldn't even stop to think. If you stuck Gil in that situation, he'd probably do the same thing (current circumstances aren't an indicator because Gil knows that a: The Other in Agatha is well-contained and b: If he knows it was done once he automatically has reason to suspect the summoning can be repeated). But Tarvek had ample opportunities to nip Lucrezia's takeover in the bud, and instead acted to simultaneously spur it along in some ways and sabotage it in others. He could have easily rigged a bomb to the summoning engine, taken Agatha and some of her singing clanks and run for the hills, or smashed it before it was completed, or just, I dunno, not stopped Anevka from killing Agatha and instead helped her mop up the giesterdamen before they woke up and then proceeded to throw Mecha-Lucrezia's head in a furnace. Or any number of things. The point is, Klaus is devoted to stopping the Other, and Gil ultimately knows his father is right and would do the same as him if circumstances were lopsided enough, but Tarvek made no effort to and passed up countless golden opportunities to stop her resurrection scheme cold. Maybe he's repentant now, maybe he thought what he could learn was worth it and thought he could pull it off—but I would not want to put him on the throne after all that.

PS: Not related to WM Ging, but I just noticed on this page, the location of the "or both" dialogue box could be interpreted as a statement/foreshadowing on the author's part.

Trouble is I don't agree with much of the counter argument. Klaus was kidnapped before the Other was known about, returned after it was apparently gone. Keeps hive engines and similar things trying to understand what all this is about. His primary goal isn't destruction of the Other per se, but stabilization of Europa, and figuring out what the hell happened while he was gone.

Gil's comment to Sleipnir is that if Agatha is uncurable he'll "take care" of her himself, but he'll give her a chance, first. But I'm not sure that this completely differentiates him from Klaus, who might well keep her living IF he could contain her enough to study.

Both men are, in their own ways, aware that long term outranks short term, and both have the balls to choose a way they didn't like if they thought they saw advantage to it.

Which keeps bringing us back to how little we know of what assumptions Tarvek is working with. We know he considers himself the legitimate Storm King Heir. But...we have no idea what he thinks that entails, including utterly ridiculous heroism and risk taking not only to gain the crown, but to serve the long term needs of Europa. We DO know he's able to play a long and patient game with all his cards hidden and his back doors in place. Everything in the Sturmhalten story tells us that. It just doesn't tell us much more than that.

Ok, try spinning it from the "other side," and keep in mind that the Foglios are having a wonderful time subverting tropes. Gil and Klaus really do live up to the Evil Overlord tropes in many, many ways: they just happen to be rather nice guys whose hearts are in teh right place and who are Evil Overlording for the Right Reasons.

So, try spinning Tarvek as a sample of trope subversion.

Boy grows up to find he is the One True Heir of a nation in chaos. He's brought up to believe that Royalty has both privileges and obligations; Aaronev and his noblesse oblige may have been perverse, but it was there, and Tarvek would have grown up with all the romance and Lost King hoo-ha tossed on. And at some point the boy figures out that he was born with the equivalent of the Far Side/Gary Larson cartoon of the very unlucky buck with the target on its chest: "Bummer Birthmark, Dude!" I mean, of all the things to learn you are, it's the One True Heir To The Storm King....AFTER the Baron has taken over the nation.

So, how do you dream yourself? Imagine yourself? You have to be Machiavellian regardless: you don't live in Aaronev's circles without being Machiavellian. But do you try to become a True Hero, Waiting To Draw the Sword from the Gear? Using every chance to learn, to subvert your poor father's plans, to understand all the elements that brought Europa low, and to ensure that when you do come to your throne it's not as a puppet prince controlled by the Knights and the Order? Do you dream of a beautiful bride, a glorious welcome?

We don't KNOW what Tarvek thinks he's doing, or why, or what it ties to. We do know that nothing he does is easily categorized, but that's partly because Tarvek doesn't trust anyone else with the details, and that's to be expected. He doesn't appear to ahve had many people he could truly trust. Trusting Agatha with his lineage, trusting her to know what to do when he provided the distraction from the Devil Dog, trusting her to literally kill him: I suspect that for Tarvek those are almost miraculous levels of trust, and he still doesn't feel he can let her or anyone else in on all the stuff going down.

The Foglios play games. They are great, delightful, big-hearted games. I honestly think they're going to find a way for Tarvek to prove a "good guy" within a reasonable value for "good." I still think Gil gets the girl in the end. But I think either Tarvek dies nobly, redeemed in all eyes, as a Snape, or he survives and gets some form of happily ever after, even if it's the Rule of Europa. Which I am not convinced Gil OR Klaus want.

The "enemy" seems likely to turn out to be "ignorance," "misunderstanding," "the Other," or some combination of those three.

I am waiting for Barry at least to prove far more "evil" within our POV's understanding, than I expect Tarvek to. And even Barry will have done what he did for reasons that seemed necessary and sufficient at the time.

Gil takes care of some potential problems!◊

Hmm. What was Zola going to ask? How much did she know?

Another interesting note is that Gil used the powder on both Zola and Tiktoffen. Despite being the Baron's inside man, he's still counted as a potential liability. (Although, I suppose in this case, it doesn't take much.)

Edit: Gahhhh, so much discussed over the past few pages, wish to respond to great insights but personal computer completely bork'd...

edited 25th Aug '09 8:54:18 PM by KupoMechanic