Naruto

A lot of those people are ostensibly heroic. Bulma may be egocentric and selfish, but she's also a caring, compassionate person. The idea Yamcha, even as a Bandit, was a mass-murderer is somewhat suspect. Piccolo's character arc was so good because it was a heartless demon learning to care for someone other than himself. Vegeta? Vegeta committed mass genocide more than once. As I recall, Krillen and Gohan were incensed just being forced to watch Freeza and team kill innocent Namekians. Vegeta, in front of them, outright brags about murdering Namekian children and Piccolo ends up valuing life so highly he tries to get Cell to let some rich jackass free.

If they didn't care about innocent lives, then a lot of dialogue and actions fall flat. At least Beerus has an actual job in this. It seems circular logic here: they don't care because they're bad people and they're bad people because they don't care?

It wasn't just the English dub that did it, the Japanese dub made Goku more heroic too; compare Goku's personality in Battle of Gods and Resurrection F with his personality in the Beerus and Revival of F Sagas in Super. There's a stark contrast between when Toriyama writes him, and when Toei writes him.

edited 20th Oct '16 6:49:43 PM by Ssj3Gojira

No, they're not 'ostensibly heroic'. They're heroic. Heroes aren't always squeaky clean. Hell, the original heroes, the ones from Greek Myth, could be right down assholes. They do heroic stuff, but they're not super nice people. They're, in fact, selfish asshats most of the time.

Just because they're selfish asshats doesn't mean they'll let you go and erradicate millions on a whim, or that they approve of mass murder. They will stop you if you make a mess.

However, you won't exactly see Goku becoming a space cop and travelling around the universe doing good, or even most of the guys using their incredible power to change the world for the better, and this includes Bulma and her money and brain.

It's less "we don't care about what happens to innocents" and more "eh, I'll stop Cell, but I won't go around the universe looking for every bit of Freeza's army left".

If they were normal people with normal day jobs, this wouldn't be a thing, but each of those guys could change the world on their lonesome, make it better, and they choose to instead become hermits, baseball players or the like.

Gohan even quit being Saiyaman, which is the greatest loss in the series.

Incidentally, Naruto needs Bolt to become the Ninjaman or some equally dumb shit. It'll be funny.

edited 20th Oct '16 7:06:07 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

I think it's quite obvious that Hiruzen is jaded at best. His wife and presumably his firstborn son are dead, his prized student betrayed the village to conduct human experiments, he failed to honor Minato's wish that Naruto be seen as a hero, and even Asuma has deep-seated issues with him. In his old age, he looks back on his life and considers himself a failure.

Hm, so I watched a Shippuuden episode for the first time in like, 2 years (480)…

First reaction: Goddammit are they STILL doing filler?!

Second reaction: …Huh. It's actually pretty nice. The episode is very minimalistic, but in a pleasant way. Although there's no way in hell that these kids are 3 and 4 years old…

Also, the opening and ending are really good. Where are they in the manga's story, though?

I'd say the big difference between Sasuke and Vegetta is that Sasuke is presented as a victim of circumstance whilst Vegetta is just an asshole.

That's true.

It's only Vegeta's misguided and oft moronic fans that think he was ever presented as a sympathetic woobie. That's why he's also the one most likely to get stomped.

You can't help but root for Vegeta for some reason, while you only ever want to see Sasuke get stomped, why his fight against Killer Bee was the best he was ever in, Bee wasn't having any of his shit.

Vegeta might be the king of arrogance, but watching him abuse weaker enemies is just so boss for some reason.

Nah, I enjoy seeing Vegeta get shitstomped. He's designed so it's entertaining to watch him get destroyed.

I'm fairly sure that's not the intended reaction.

Which one? Both are pretty good.

Also, Gilgamesh is the king of arrogance; he has enough for it to have its own gravitational field at this point.

Vegeta has an awesome ego. That's why he's so popular, I mean I recall Toriyama originally wanting to kill him off but relented after how popular he became.

I mean there's kind of a difference between the two. Both are dicks but Sasuke just feels like the bigger douche.

Ah well thanks for the correction then.

edited 21st Oct '16 5:00:58 PM by slimcoder

Nah, that's a fan rumour. Most of the 'Toriyama was forced to do X' rumours are just fans making shit up to make out as though Toriyama's true vision is whatever they personally want in the story.

I mean, there's probably some truth to it, seeing as how Frieza isn't even remotely referenced at all during the Saiyan Saga, and the Saiyans themselves are played as free agents who did all this planet selling stuff of their own free will. Well...that and the small one-shot he did that basically flat out confirmed all of that as true.

edited 21st Oct '16 5:31:02 PM by Ssj3Gojira

It's as believable as Madara being as powerful as Nappa.

That's completely unrelated. It just means Toriyama didn't have the Freeza arc planned at that stage.

Hmm, it might because I've gotten used to the style used, but chapter 6 of Boruto looks genuinely better.

No, it's not you - the artist has improved a bit from the initial art that was released.

I'm watching the last battle between Naruto and Kishimoto, starting from episode 475, while I do job applications and stuff. I haven't been keeping up with the anime, its spinoffs, or even this thread, for a while.

So... Sasuke's just a colossal asshole then. In the manga, this seemed like a Big-Lipped Alligator Moment, but here, he's even more of an Instant Expert Jerkass Easily Forgiven Karma Houdini.

edited 21st Oct '16 8:58:22 PM by wanderlustwarrior

Wait, Naruto and Kishimoto?

How the hell is he a bigger asshole than he already is in the manga?

They have no excuse, they had time to give Sasuke a proper reasoning and a better thought of plan in order to enforce peace. They could've at least brought him up to Lelouch's level.

The plan was pretty much exactly like Lelouch's, the only difference was that Sasuke would have made himself immortal, so that the world's hatred would be placed on him for all eternity.

Yes, the battle between Naruto and Kishimoto. Th battle between the manga and the author's perception of logical storytelling.