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Headscratchers: Tsukihime
  • Arcueid and Ciel hate each others' guts, no big secret (even before you add Shiki to the picture). They're also both hunting down Roa, both have their own reasons for doing so, and both emphatically turn down the idea of cooperating whenever Shiki brings it up. And yet, as for that last part...if Ciel finds Roa first, both of their problems could be solved, since she's got the method to kill him permanently. Ciel has to realize this, and since Arcueid is familiar with Ciel's position and abilities in the Burial Agency, she most likely does, too. Gotta ask, do they really hate each other that much?
    • I believe their relationship is described as a "weird friendship" by Word of God. Also, am I the only one who sees the Les Yay in their relationship? :P
      • It's not their relationship I'm confused about (which does seem to warm in later games). It's the fact that if Arcueid either backed off or backed up Ciel, she'd get her lost power back, and Ciel would become mortal again. Two birds with a single rock and all that. It's like Arcueid's thinking "well, surely I can kill him this time!" As for the Les Yay...nope. I can't see it.
      • Well, she's the only natural reincarnation of Roa, who fell in love with Arcueid at first sight. Considering that he mistook it for hatred for eight hundred years, her own antagonism with Arc seems kind of suspicious. Of course, considering that she fell in love with Shiki, it makes one wonder if SHIKI's antagonism of his replacement might be him protesting too much. Maybe his obsession with Akiha is a displacement activity?
      • Probably a combination of pride and the fact that Ciel would use the seventh holy scripture to kill Roa, which might screw up the power transfer or something. It's not so clear now, but the upcoming remake should be a little better with the details.
      • They're both afraid that if the other kills Roa first, they will get what they want and the other will be worse off for it. If Ciel kills Roa, she will have destroyed him utterly, and Arcueid will never be able to reclaim the power he 'stole' from her. If Arcueid kills Roa, she'll take the part of her power that belongs to her back, and Ciel will never be able to die because that part of Roa will live on with her. (Ciel wouldn't be able to die without killing Arcueid herself, which may be impossible as the Church mentions they want to seal her away at best.)
    • Love Triangle over Shiki. With Arc's trouble suppressing her urges, Ciel is justifiably against Shiki spending so much time with Arc. Plus, Arc is something that must be destroyed, in the Church's eyes. You wanna try selling your "two birds with one stone" argument with a certain other fanatical hunter?
      • Actually, considering that she retires hunting Dead Apostles in her good end and is planning on quitting the Burial Agency in the prologues for Tsukihime 2, Ciel is most likely not a fanatical hunter so much as someone who is joining forces with the people that tortured her for years because they're the biggest threat to Roa and have a weapon that's capable of preventing him from reincarnating.
      • Okay, that explains possible Ciel motivations. Nothing stopping Arcueid from, say, killing enough zombies to force Roa into the open, waiting for Ciel to dry-hump him to Final Death with metallic apocrypha, and going on her merry way (with or without Shiki depending on the route). On the other hand, combine the previous two entries together...that's a fairly convincing, two-sided picture, actually.
      • It's also worth noting that they both love Shiki, and particularly in Ciel's good ending, would be... kind of pissed if they killed one another. Doesn't keep them from hate being around each other, though.
    • Aruceid might not think Ciel's method really WOULD work. And it's possible that Aruceid simply does not see another way. Alternately, yes, until the time that Aruceid meets Shiki, they could, in fact, hate each other that much. (Aruceid is an abomniation, and Ciel is Roa.)
  • Why does Arcueid even recognize Ciel? I don't mean recognizing the body as the former host of Roa. After killing that body of Roa's, Arcueid went back to sleep, right? By the time she's awake and active again, she's just gotten to town and is looking for SHIKI/Roa. She doesn't know at the start that Ciel is there until Shiki describes her! Yet Arcueid not only recognizes who she is and who she works with, she's so familiar with Ciel that she can recognize her merely based off her fighting technique. WHEN DID THEY MEET IF ARCUEID HAS BEEN ASLEEP? Wasn't Ciel also dead about half of this time?
    • I'd chalked that up to her nebulous "research." She learns all she can about the society Roa wakes into (she knows how movie theaters, subways, restaurants, hotels, etc. all work), it only makes sense that she'd keep tabs on the people most likely to get in her way. If we assume she's up to date on the Church - the Burial Agency in particular - it's easy to see how she recognized Ciel just by description. Ciel's pretty darn distinctive, since she's the only Executor who works alone, and is one of the (likely) few who uses Black Keys, not to mention the only one who sets fire to things with them.
      • Arcueid said she does stuff like read magazines. I don't think the Church is very open about members of the Burial Squad, do you? She was only awake for a couple days at that point probably. Even if she is familiar with all their top agents and fighting styles in the short time available to her, she didn't just react like she did to Nero Chaos in the manner of simply having heard of him. She didn't even know his primary gimmick, and killing guys like him is her mission in life. Arcueid and Ciel are acquaintances of some sort past the whole 'killing you in the face because you're Roa' thing.
      • Her knowledge of society seems far too much to explain with just mundane means; I assumed she had some other method available, and since Arcueid has also cooperated with the Burial Agency several times in the past, I'd thought she'd have some way of knowing about them. Oh, and where are you getting "a couple of days" from? Roa had had plenty of time to become established as a serial killer with just the few failed vampiric turnings. I'd have guessed a couple of weeks at the very least. That is, both she and the church had had enough time to find out about Roa at some time in the past eight years since he incarnated into SHIKI. And really, Arcueid reacted similarly to Nero and Ciel...except the latter was "Dammit, now I have to hurry!" and the former was "Oh Crap, what's he doing here?"
      • Her knowledge of society is very basic. Feel free to correct me, but I thought she said she just spends a couple days researching the culture and then goes out. She does have a more magical means of gaining knowledge as mentioned in Kagetsu Tohya, but this involves some sort of equalization of information (whatever that means) and so she doesn't do it unless she can avoid it. Ciel mentions that she didn't even know Arcueid could talk because she has never been recorded as having spoken, and to me that implies that all cooperation with the Burial Agency such as taking down the original Roa was along the lines of the Church saying 'Arcueid is damn terrifying but she seems to be trying to kill this dude, and he's a jerk. Let's kill him first.' A couple of days for how long she's been awake is because she says she's never awake for more than that long, and Ciel agrees. You may have a point there though, but to me that seems like a minor plot hole. Perhaps Arcueid simply doesn't wake up the instant Roa starts taking over a town? Also, Arcueid's reaction in both cases seemed to be more along the lines of irritation. She doesn't know much at all about Nero, but when she finds out about his body then she goes Oh Crap. So if she's also researching potential enemies, she's not very well informed. All she knew is that he was a wanderer and that the Church really hates him. So yeah, she could feasibly know a bit about Ciel, but why would she bother to? As far as she knew, Ciel was dead. Yet she knows lots about Ciel... as if this isn't the first time they've met since Ciel resurrected. Not even close by how quickly she's identified. Also, wall of text yay.
      • Yeah, actually that confuses me now, too. I'd dispute some things; Arcueid has taken out other vampires alongside the Burial Agency during her previous Roa stalkings (in addition to the original incident), and she knew enough about Nero (including his real name) to realize that she never, ever wanted to run in to him (even before she was weakened by Shiki). Other than that...huh. Either they just didn't tell us everything - the only explanations I can think of are maybe she noticed Ciel before finding Shiki (extremely unlikely), or she was awake when Ciel joined the church (only slightly more likely) - or it's a small plot hole.
  • I don't think they met. Maybe I'm just not completely finished the game yet, but there's a part where Arcuied visits your school, and if you choose to wait until after class to check up on her, you'll find her and Ciel doing some kind of silent staring contest. It's only late when you tell Arcuied about how some random catholic nun person saved your life, that she goes like, "hmm, only one person fights like that. It must be her. What's she doing here already?" If she had recognized Ciel way back at the school, she wouldn't have been all "it must be her judging by that fighting style", but more like "yeah, I saw that person earlier yesterday. She goes to your school." I think it's more like a general grasp of some agents of the burial agency, same way as a general grasp of Nero. I thought it was more along the lines like "I heard that there's someone in the Burial agency who combines blah and blah with their black keys, and that person works solo and has the seventh scripture. Therefore, the Burial Agency must have an agent here already."
    • One of her most loyal followers, the twentieth Dead Apostle Ancestor Merem Solomon, happens to also be the current Number Five of the Buriel Agency. It's plausible that he just leaves her an updated list of the church's and Dead Apostle Ancestors' members and actions for her to peruse in addition to what she gains from her "research."
    • Couldn't the fact that Ciel jedi mind tricked Shiki into thinking she knew him have to do with it? Maybe Arcueid spotted it.
  • During their sex scenes, why do Hisui and Kohaku leave on their headgear (the maid frill and the bow, respectively)? Surely by those points, they can be told apart by eye color and expression.
    • Because they're maids. It's to continue the fetish fuel.
      • Curses. Stupid fetish...they're cuter without them, dammit!
  • In Ciel's route, when she leaves Japan to go consult with the Catholic Church about alternate means to resolve the Roa issue without killing Shiki. The distance between Japan and Italy is 6129.205 miles (9864 km). The shortest flight length by plane from Tokyo to Rome would be about 15 hours. Which would equal 30 hours total when she returns. Yet, she's only gone for a single day. =3= This doesn't include the length of time for Ciel to get in touch with her boss, let alone her discussing things with the higher-ups.
    • Ciel didn't leave Japan, she left for the one Catholic church in Japan with a connection to the Burial Agency (...wait, wouldn't that be the Kotomine church?), to get a permit for Shiki to enter the Vatican. She does mention that she might be gone for several days, and that Shiki could last a couple of weeks safely in her room, so it probably just didn't take as long as she expected.

Hisui's True End redeems Kohaku more than Kohaku's own end does

Maybe it's just because Kohaku's suicide fate in "Midday Moon" is just such a Tear Jerker, but it's only in that fleeting instant before death-by-knife-through-the-heart that she seems to find her real self again. In Hisui's Good End its Laser-Guided Amnesia, while in Kohaku's End it seems more Becoming the Mask. Even after Shiki gives her the white ribbon back, and a double dose of Intimate Healing (one for Shiki, one for her), she still tells Shiki that she might just be what he wants her to be. Shiki insists that it's not the case, but he isn't terribly convincing. After the Final Battle between Akiha and Shiki in the school, when Kohaku prevents Akiha from killing herself, she even says:
"No matter how much you hate me, I always want to serve you. So Akiha-sama — if you feel sorry for me at all, please do not die. If you die like this, I — will go back to being the Kohaku from before."
...which makes it sound like this "new, emotive" Kohaku is not so much "I've broken out of my mask" as it is "Look, now I have learned how to switch masks and can go back and forth between them".

Contrast this with Hisui's True End, where Kohaku's Evil Plan works... but she still brings Akiha tea even though her mistress is dead, and only with a knife in her chest does she say she's finally got to talk to Shiki. Her last words are:
"I see — I guess it was only an illusion after all.
It hurts."

THIS Death Equals Redemption is the only time she actually realises, for herself, that there was still a scared, damaged little girl underneath her mask. Here, the real human Kohaku is still in there somewhere - carrying all her pain from Makihisa's abuse, admitting that everything in her childhood made her sad, and actually feeling it.

Whereas, in Kohaku's own route, when Shiki tells her that she doesn't have to pretend to smile any more, what does she do? Instead of crying or admitting her feelings like you would expect an actual person to do, her reaction is instead to have clinical "bodily fluid exchange" with Shiki to power him up so he can go kill his sister.

The fact that Shiki agrees to this is pretty disturbing as well. 'Cos if you think about it, he's using Kohaku in the exact same way Makihisa did: for her Synchroniser powers. Yes, Kohaku offers, but by now Shiki knows full well that Kohaku is a broken doll, and she has no concept of affection for anything. I was glaring at the screen the whole time, willing Shiki to say "No Kohaku, even if it means Akiha will kill me, I won't use your body like my father did". But no, he goes and exploits the powers of a mind raped girl as fuel for his own health anyway. That's real classy of you, Shiki.
  • Of course Hisui's True End redeems Kohaku more. In Kohaku's route, there's nothing to redeem. Her major crime was making Akiha (her best friend) die, unless you count manipulating Shiki (which she reverses). She never crosses the Moral Event Horizon, either normally (making Akiha die) or in her own mind (saving Akiha at the last minute, ala Hisui's Good Ending).

    The reason the Hisui's True End is such a Tear Jerker is because it not only revealed what happened to Kohaku and just what she's done for revenge, it also revealed that her situation was hopeless. Without the mask, all she was and all she could be was that sad, abused little girl. That mask breaking at the last second wasn't "redemption", it was one last twist of the knife to show that she couldn't escape. The painless persona was no help; the "real" Kohaku is and always was doomed.
    —>"No matter how much you hate me, I always want to serve you. So Akiha-sama — if you feel sorry for me at all, please do not die. If you die like this, I — will go back to being the Kohaku from before."
    "Switch between masks?" There's only the one mask; you can't count the "emotionless" mask, since Kohaku herself admits that it solved nothing. And if Akiha died because of Kohaku's own actions, a mask is all she could ever have (until she killed herself and realized dying hurts, of course).

    I realize that True Art Is Angsty, but that was the point of Hisui's Good Ending and Kohaku's True Ending. Those were literally the only ways Kohaku could have a happy ending, by either forgetting her past entirely and starting anew, by or adopting the cheerful mask as her true self and moving on.

    Also, you're mixing up your events. Shiki tells Kohaku that she doesn't need to force herself to smile long before the sex; because she's not a "normal" person, she reacts to that with confusion (in the five seconds before Akiha interrupts them). The thing that broke the mask was later, after Shiki resolves to stop Akiha and gives Kohaku the ribbon back. Then she does start crying. Her subsequent offer of sex wasn't so much for Shiki to kill Akiha (both considered that a very last resort to "stopping" her), but more for Shiki to, you know...not die. It might be worth noting that she was also more than capable of raping him, if need be (something she's done before), since at the rate he was losing life, he might not have even made it to Akiha before dying.

    As for Shiki's acceptance, the whole point was that he's not Makihisa or SHIKI. When she's sexing him up while he's essentially paralyzed, all he can think of is how horrible he is for using her for her power (he has almost the exact same thought during Hisui's route). That was the entire point of the second round of sex, Shiki using sex as an expression of love, with no other purpose beyond that. The kicker being that he gets through to her; that was part of the turning point. The other parts were his reaction to her insistence, not that he's projecting what he wants on her, but that she feels something but doesn't know for herself if it's real (he insists that if she's feeling it, it's real), and his insistence that while he would always love Kohaku for whoever she was (an answer she expected), he liked "cheerful" Kohaku most of all (which she didn't expect).

    The result: a Kohaku who seizes her chance at happiness by jumping back from the cliff edge and trying to set things right. And the fact that she succeeded was a Tear Jerker in an entirely different way.

Satsuki's route is wasn't/isn't consistent with the sequels * transplanted from WMG*
Look at it this way. Does anyone else get the feeling that they're bullshitting us about what Satsuki's route contains? Arcueid and Ciel appear in their full roles, meaning it can't be an early Near Side route. Akiha's power is well known as well as Kohaku's unhinged mind. That implies the full knowledge of the Far Side routes is revealed. Nero Chaos is dead, Roa is dead, Satsuki is alive as the tenth Dead Apostle Ancestor if they want her to be. Arcueid and Ciel are both still hanging around, but Shiki hasn't chosen either one. They just took all the most interesting bits of all the routes and stuck them together while maintaining the full cast and making sure that there are no boring villains from the old game still around. They can write whatever they want to with Satsuki's route.

Maybe this is one of those Poison Oak epileptic trees or whatever they're called... this guess would kind of suck. From a storytelling viewpoint, she could fit as a transition between Near/Far side or be the final tie up to the Far Side route instead of Kohaku.
  • Even if they're bullshitting us as to the contents, why would that mean her route wouldn't get released? We already know the route has changed a lot from what Nasu was originally planning. It certainly wouldn't reverse causality and make Melty Blood stop existing just because it no longer follows a released route perfectly.
    • The content length doesn't really fit. For all that information to be revealed requires a longer time frame than the other routes got. That's not even really taking into account that it's Satsuki's route, not theirs. So the focus still ought to be on her, even if she doesn't live through it or whatever. If they want to release a Satsuki route in the remake that includes everything that Kagetsu Tohya or Melty Blood are based on then it will either be far longer than the other routes or they'll have to at least partially rewrite the other routes to make them closer. Also, in a narrative sense, is it Far Side or Near Side? Or does it have a special Middle Side? Maybe I think too much about actual writing and how it fits together, but it just doesn't seem like a Satsuki route can fit without feeling like it's rushed or that it skips over too many details. Hell, apart from any romance angle, how does she become the 10th Dead Apostle? Is her Reality Marble going to be mentioned? And then it needs to include at least part of the background material of Makihasa for the Far Side routes to make sense. Perhaps it will be released since it'd be a real waste not to, but it seems like if it is it wouldn't be released with the Tsukihime remake so much as in something like the Manga or a different game altogether. It's not a 'Satsuki route' if they do that so much as merely writing an entirely new story that happens to be a prequel to Kagetsu Tohya.
      • I guess I wasn't clear enough. I'm asking why you think they'll release a prequel to Melty Blood instead of Satsuki's game route. I have a little more confidence in Nasu's editor than to think that he'll try to cram in everything that's implied in the spinoff games, rather than write the thing and say "it's not directly related any more." Though really, pretty much everything non-Satsuki related implied in Melty Blood is either standard Near Side stuff (Nero's appearance, Shiki's attraction to Arcueid and kohai relationship with Ciel, and the like) or can probably be explained in a Satsuki route.
      • I understand what you mean, it's just that the Near Side stuff doesn't really entirely cover all the stuff it really should if it's just Satsuki. Oh, and it'd have to be a prequel to Melty Blood since chronologically it comes first. And it's not that I think they'll release a prequel so much that they're doing a remake of Tsukihime (aren't they?) which would be the best place to include her route. The other option would be to make it it's own game and actually do the story justice. But that's not really something that's being talked about, is it? So, in a hypothetical Satsuki route, I think we agree that it'd have to include Arcueid and Ciel, then dispose of Nero. SHIKI/Roa infects Satsuki somewhere around this time. Then he dies at some point, presumably before whatever is going on with Satsuki is finished but not so soon as to be simply anticlimactic. Hell, maybe they cut the time down and have Satsuki do it for us instead and Shiki simply delivers the final blow so he stays dead this time. This whole time you've also been building a relationship with Satsuki as well as Arcueid (Melty Blood implies that Shiki and Arcueid are together) and somehow the Tohno family is involved here as well. No other reason for Shiki to know about Vermillion Akiha or Kohaku being unbalanced, right? Satsuki's abilities have to be covered at least a little. The only way to fit all this stuff into a normal Tsukihime length route is to cut down on necessary details, or leave you on some type of cliff hanger with her route unresolved at least temporarily. It's not that I think Nasu and his editors are incapable of tying everything together. I'm wondering if they can tie everything together while still maintaining quality and without overshadowing the rest of the game. From what I can see the only way to do so would be to make it entirely separate from the remake (which is probably the only really feasible move) or to flesh out everyone's routes a lot. Which I suppose they'd do anyway, but that still only maintains a Tsukihime level of detail for Satsuki herself. Demoted to Extra — isn't it sad?
      • We don't know if it's sad, yet. My point is that just because it's in Melty Blood, which has been said to follow from an unreleased Satsuki route, doesn't mean that route is set in stone (if it changes enough, they might just write off Sacchin Route's "prequel" status and say Melty Blood follows its own route, instead). As for the other stuff...why not? Nero and Roa both appear and die in the Arcueid and Ciel routes, presumably Satsuki is turned after the fairly early Nero incident (or maybe beforehand, and she's involved in that somehow), and dealing with Roa gets a unique take. Shiki being with Arcueid doesn't really take much; even during Ciel's route, he was attracted to her (see: Ciel's Good End). Satsuki's abilities would naturally be covered. Other than Vermillion Akiha (who could probably get a brief exposition ala the anime or manga adaptations), the Far Side and the Tohno exposition doesn't really have to be involved to a great extent. The only real difficulty would be trying to tie such a story into the overall narrative of the game. The way I imagine it, it would be best (like you said) a Middle route, between Ciel and Akiha. The main problem I see with that would be Satsuki's sudden drop in importance between a hypothetical route focused on her and her status in Akiha's route.
      • Sure, they could do that. But really, if they want to write a sequel they'd want to have everyone available regardless of Melty Blood without having to do The Reveal again. Also, Satsuki being involved with Nero is a good point. Her Reality Marble passively destroys mana, and Nero's Reality Marble passively gives him his form of Chaos, so long as he can fuel it with mana. Hm... That could explain how Nero can both be really dead, Satsuki can have some background and details explained and can also take his place. As for Far Side stuff, Vermillion Akiha, the Twin Switch, SHIKI/Shiki connection and at least passing reference to Kohaku's backstory and plotting probably would need to come up. Then tie stuff up with Satsuki. As for the drop in importance, Satsuki is dealt with in Akiha's route while in pretty severe pain, still emotionally conflicted and with less time to figure out all this vampire stuff. I think it might turn her route into the Spotlight-Stealing Squad though. Or alternately it could be a route that comes after the Far Side stuff to avoid spoiling the reveals from those routes, can go over them in less detail and also act as a summation for the game overall. Plus, it's allowed to grab all the focus then. Perhaps that would be unavoidable because the alternative would probably be making it too short/rushed.
      • A sequel? To what? And why all the Far Side stuff? All you really need is Vermillion Akiha. Shiki and SHIKI is already covered enough in Arcueid's route, and (much as it pains me to say it) the maids need not be important. Granted, I knew there was a trope I was trying to think of that would be the problem (Spotlight-Stealing Squad, thanks!). I guess that could be resolved by putting the route at the "end" so to speak...though then the internet will be inundated with idiots moaning about how having a Satsuki route at all is just "fanservice."
      • Tsukihime 2, the Dark Six is supposed to be under development, right? The maids probably aren't terribly important to an evolving story, no, but is it too much to ask to have one sane character and one who gets better the atmosphere they make is nice. There's also other information about them such as being a side branch of the Fujou clan and the backstory of the Tohno's. Guess I'm trying to say if they don't include at least some of their Far Side characterization, they'll become flat characters and therefore be essentially unusable, while as they are now they can serve a wide variety of roles. Or even just provide normal, non action oriented characters.
      • I thought the prophesied Tsukihime sequel was supposed to take place after Arcueid's route...or something. There's so little information on that (Ciel's in England and still likes curry, Merem Solomon is involved, Satsujinki kills Louvre and the Forest of Einnashe...anything else?), speculation is extremely difficult. We still seem to be arguing from different perspectives (it's starting to feel like a Just Bugs Me discussion, come to think of it), depending on whether Satsuki's route will be a Sequel Hook or not. I'm thinking it's not, and with that, it won't need to be crammed with outside exposition. For example, I'm saying the maids don't need all their characterization, because they already have almost the entire Far Side to themselves (and even in the Near Side, they were still pretty fun).
      • Well, since we're just slinging opinions back and forth by this point or, like you said, we simply have different perspectives, so just going to say one more thing. I wouldn't expect the maids to have a big role either, they'd simply get skimmed over with a compressed explanation since anyone already playing knows, though Shiki doesn't. They've used that before when switching between routes. Oh, and the Forest thing is still up in the air on its value as canon, isn't it? And Arcueid is just sort of mentioned, iirc there's no real solid info on their relationship. Finally, yea, probably should be moved to Headscratchers as it's about the difficulties of a coherent storyline.

  • How does Shiki actually beat anyone in a fight without killing them? In Melty Blood, he beats Sion specifically because his eyes are so unpredictable, and also defeats Ciel. Plus Akiha. Am I missing something? His eyes kill things or at least make unhealable wounds. If he's not cutting lines, he's just a knife fighter. And therefore predictable.
    • Gameplay-wise, balance. Otherwise, almost everyone's Arc Drive would be instant death. Storywise, I think he was just knife fighting, except when going against Tatari. Everyone except Nanaya, Nero, Wallachia, and Red Arcueid has a vested interest in not killing him. For both, watch him fight. The only times he actually uses the Mystic Eyes are during his Arc Drive and Last Arc. Sion's confusion makes a little more sense if you think of Shiki's very possession of Mystic Eyes of Death Perception as screwing up her calculations, whether he actually uses them or not (I get the feeling she was fighting just on physical talent, since prediction didn't do so well against Arcueid, either).
      • Gameplay story segregation aside, of course. How does the mere presence of his eyes throw off calculations? Sion thinks blue eyes are really pretty? After fighting him, I'm pretty sure she remarks (if he loses) that he should have used his eyes because they messed up her calculations whereas on sheer ability she had better than even odds of beating him. Against Arcueid, it didn't matter how well her predictions were because she's simply incapable of actually dealing real damage to a True Ancestor. Arcueid basically just says, "Meh, you want to stop before you die of exhaustion trying to actually beat me, newbie?" even if Sion 'wins'. Back to Shiki, it's entirely possible that for the characters that are his friends, he wasn't using his eyes. It's rather doubtful that he would even chance killing them accidentally. But he did use them on Sion.
      • And if she loses that fight, she mentions that "Even though I collected all of [Shiki's] data, I couldn't finish reading it." In other words, the dice could fall either way in that fight. And since she says that she couldn't promise to go after her wounds healed, he clearly didn't use the Eyes against her. (For that matter, she also muses to herself that fighting Shiki is extremely risky, since there's always the chance he'll flip out and disassemble things, but that's probably something else.)
      • Yes, he obviously didn't use his Eyes. But they're his wild card factor that she couldn't cover for, and are why she lost. Why would they make her lose unless he used them?
      • Because she just screwed up and lost the fight. Because the Eyes of Death Perception are extremely rare and poorly understood (until she managed to etherlite Shiki), and she couldn't figure out fast enough what he could do with them or when he might use them before he won. Either of those two things...or, considering Sion's reaction upon losing, probably both. She's not infallible.
      • She ought to understand them as well as Ciel or Arcueid do, which is as well as Shiki does. After all, one of Shiki's friends must have reported his eyes or nobody would even know. After all, it's an incredibly unlikely thing to just guess and people would merely assume a conceptual weapon like both of them did. And why mention their unpredictability as the deciding factor if when he doesn't use them he loses? If he still doesn't use them... he wins? Anxiety that would be present in both circumstances doesn't really cut it.
      • Hence, "just screwed up" is a valid explanation. If she wins, she asks why he didn't use the eyes, since they would have helped him win. If she loses, she berates herself for not working fast enough. Sion's not infallible, Shiki's not a pushover, and the Nasuverse canon basically runs on large-scale quantum mechanics.
      • Quantum mechanics in the sense that in large part it's random and almost impossible to understand, sort of like the mechanics for abilities like Shirou's special projection?
      • Basically that, but with less snark.
      • This troper always believed that in that fight, the data Shion couldn't "read" was Shiki's Nanaya blood acting up. In the manga she does mention that his combat instincts were beyond all expectations ( After he cuts her invisible etherlite, something she really wasn't expecting ).

  • There wasn't a justbugsme Nasuverse so I decided to just post this here. If ORT is invincible on Earth, doesn't have gain sense of death, ect,ect, but might be vulnerable/a weakness might be discovered if it was on Mercury instead or w/e, does that mean if a human was somehow fighting it on Mecury, would that mean that the human would be pretty much invincible since he/she doesn't posses a Mercurian concept of death?
    • Humans aren't depicted as being connected enough to carry a "Type" category. We're not part of Gaia; we don't have the Gaian concept of death either. We exist independently. Thus, we die independently. That's actually why the Ultimate Ones attack; because humans had the gall to keep surviving when Gaia didn't; so they decided to "balance the equation."
    • We may not carry a Mercurian concept of death, but if ORT hits us with a 9001 degree fireball we're still going to die. The same thing applies in reverse, and there's some work or another by Nasu with the TYP Es attacking Earth in the far future and causing mass devastation, but also being killed by weapons like Black Barrel. Basically, enough raw force will destroy anything, but skipping that step for a starfish alien that is probably smarter than a brick wall just doesn't work. Presumably Shiki could kill Gaia. And the Crimson Moon, who is basically the most powerful True Ancestor and not that different from humans.
      • Crimson Moon? I'm not so sure. Satsujinki might be able to manage that, but...remember Ciel's True Ending? Keep in mind that Type-Moon doesn't rely on Gaia for strength...
      • No, but True Ancestors have the same concept of death and Crimson Moon is basically just the most badass powerful True Ancestor. It's not entirely one of the TYP Es, after all.
      • More than that. Crimson Moon is the True Ancestor, the being Gaia copied to make her own (flawed versions of) vampires. If he's barely one of the Types at the moment, it's only because right now he's in Arcueid and waiting to resurrect. He's still the Ultimate Being of the Moon. Shiki had a hard enough time seeing Arcueid's Death, let alone her ancestor's. Maybe Shikiller could...
    • Eh. It's just that I don't really like the idea of a "gain concept of death", a "mercurian concept of death", ect. I wish that Nasu just said something like ORT is invincible because there is no weapon in the modern era capable of harming it or because it's super powerful instead of something vague of "concepts of death." The idea that there is a Mercurian sense of death, and that is different from an normal death or whatever.
      • "No modern weapon" and "super-powerful" wouldn't apply to Mystic Eyes of Death Perception, which is really what the argument is about. "Concepts of Death" are already an incredibly important plot point in Tsukihime, considering such things as Shiki being able to see object lines at all, not being able to kill Arcueid under specific circumstances, and Shiki's brain slowly ticking towards implosion because he's starting to understand everything Gaian (enough to see points of Death on people and things). Point being that ORT can be killed, it's just insanely difficult because he can't be wtfpwnzed by Satsujinki. Besides, Gaia being isolated is also a plot point with regards to Shirou's projection magic.

  • Alaya is part of Gaia right? It's the part of Gaia born from humanity's will to survive. However, humanity outlives Gaia. Does Alaya still exist after Gaia dies, since humanity is still around?
    • Of course. Alaya exists as long as humanity retains the desire to survive. It's more connected to humanity than Gaia, and since humans are already rather disconnected...

  • I was playing Tsukihime recently, when I found the line that basically said "To kill a True Ancestor, you'd need a conceptual weapon capable of destroying the world". Reading that, I thought, "capable of destroying the world, that sounds like Ea to me." Would Ea be able to kill Arcueid?
    • If you caught her sleeping, I suppose. I think that statement was referring to her being Gaia's own Counter Force, so to truly kill Arcueid, you'd need to be able to kill Gaia (which Shiki can do...one piece at a time).
      • Apparently confirmed by Melty Blood. Arcueid is resurrected by Gaia after Roa kills her in Type-Earth form. You'd need to destroy the World to kill her (something Shiki has proven capable of, in localized areas).

  • Can someone explain to me why Roa, who realizes that the host's natural potential is much more valuable than social standing after reincarnating as Ciel, completely ignores that lesson during his next reincarnation by choosing SHIKI, while in the exact same town, lived Satsuki, a person with so many magic circuits that she made the jump to true vampire in a matter of hours as opposed to the centuries it normally takes even for those able to? I mean, a choice between a half-demon blooded family with a history of it's members going insane that happens to have some status, or some random person with enough magic potential that rivals or even surpasses your original body, which had been so powerful that it took the church and a fullpower Arcueid teamup to beat?
    • Well, his memory has gotten kinda shoddy after seventeen times, and Ciel was apparently a fluke. Maybe he didn't consider it a lesson and just went with his usual "power and status" methodology for the next time. Frankly, I'm more confused as to why he possessed SHIKI over Akiha. Sure, his demon blood is stronger (giving him Fusion, blood manipulation, and Shirou-style immortality), but Akiha was ultimately the more powerful...
      • "I cursed my calculating self up until now. Things like social standing, they could always be set up later. But the quality of the body is something natural that cannot be added later. After my seventeenth reincarnation, I finally realized that truth." I don't know, it certainly seems like he had an epiphany/realization. It's almost like he went "Ah, natural talent is more important than social standing. I can't believe it took me hundreds of years to figure that out. Now, let's ignore that and go back to getting some social standing."
      • In that case, the only explanations I can come up with are that either Satsuki just slipped under his notice (Ciel was chosen with the thought "this is taking too long, screw it, that person has magic), or Roa just got too impatient to bother looking around much and went with an obvious choice (it's not like SHIKI was a bad choice, after all; why would he expect the sudden insanity burst?). It's kind of unclear how the heck he actually searches for new hosts. Who knows, maybe Roa-Elesia didn't have the resources to scan every family in Japan, or something of the sort.
      • I always assumed that Roa didn't possess people (except Shiki) so much as reincarnate and then overwrite his current persona's mind and body with his own goals and vampirism. To that extent, choosing to reincarnate within the Tohnos was because they were the biggest and baddest lineage of special power users in the area, then hoping that he got something worthwhile when he caused his new persona to invert. Its possible that Satsuki's potential was a fluke of nature, as there's no indication that she's from a family known for its magical circuits, so he wouldn't have any way of predicting that she'd be such a major player. Not to mention it ended up netting him the false Eyes of Death Perception, which let him basically one-shot (an admittedly heavily weakened) Arcueid on the night of the full moon, something that Satsuki probably never would have been able to do even with her Reality Marble.
      • Are sure about that last bit? Remember Roa with his original body who pretty ridiculously overpowered, and he took down Altrouge who had taken down an Arc more powerful than the one seen at the start of Tsukihime, even before Shiki 17 dissected her. In this case, however, it's probably more depends on whether or not how well Satsuki knows magic, which in Tsukihime and Melty Blood is pretty close to zero. But I just want to say that she definitely still has the potential in there.
      • IIRC, he never *chose* Ciel, Arcueid just managed to kill his preceding incarnation before he could choose a specific family to reincarnate into so Elesia/Ciel was his only natural reincarnation and just happened to have an insane amount of magical potential. I seem to recall that Elesia-Roa actively scouted out the Tohnos before incarnating into them, but the VN never gave any indications whether it was their status or just the fact that they had the strongest magical circuits around and were most likely to have a uber-magical kid. Depending on whether or not his incarnation starts from before birth like Elesia's presumably did, then the reason he chose SHIKI instead of Akiha may have simply been because neither of them had been born at that time, and it was pure luck of the genetic draw that Akiha was stronger than SHIKI (something that it took years of observation for her own father to determine, going by his journal), and Satsuki was just someone that didn't cross their radar since she didn't do anything even remotely magical until after SHIKI turned her. For what its worth, SHIKI's False Eyes of Death Perception is arguably the best ability that he could have hoped for, if he knew what he was actually using seeing as his main enemy (as he understood it) was Arcueid, who was powered by absorbing life energy from nature, without the brain-busting side-effects of the True Eyes of Death Perception. Too bad its not quite so useful against Akiha's ranged attacks, which in turn is supposed to be useless against Arcueid's magic resistance according to Word of God. And if those Eyes could carry on to the next incarnation, it would have been a good investment for the future.
      • It would certainly be the status. The Tohnos probably do have at least some form of magical potential (since Roa can eventually use magic in SHIKI's body), but their actual powers are explicitly derived from their demon bloodline, and demons don't actually have magic circuits. It's possible that Elesia-Roa considered that a fair tradeoff; otherwise, choosing a host from, say, the Fujou or Asagami families (known for powerful, more traditional magecraft) would have made far more sense...though considering those used to be half the Demon Hunters Organization, it may have been a safety measure, as well (who's going to notice a vampire in a family of insane half-demons, before it's too late?). Of course, one of those families may have been smarter, anyway, since Roa almost certainly wouldn't have taken SHIKI's Immortality, Fusion, blood manipulation, and False Eyes of Death Perception (which were a bit of fluke, really; he got them in the same accidental, convoluted way as Shiki) with him to the next reincarnation. All he keeps between hosts is his knowledge (including magecraft), memories, and motivation, while the physical and magical capabilities of his bodies are unique each time (hence why Ciel can technically still use Roa's magic, but nothing else from the previous 16 Roas). Another bit of evidence is his misappropriation of the FEoDP; he certainly believed he would take the Eyes with him, but he believed that he had the Eyes because he reincarnated often enough to understand life and death, rather than from his host's death and subsequent return (by Fusion-leeching Shiki) expanding his demonic perception (or so goes one theory).
      • Definately seems plausible for the Tohno's to have the potential to wield Magecraft. Kishu possess the nifty ability to use their entire body as a substitute for magic circuits. So it stands to reason that half-breeds like the Tohno's would at least possess some lesser variation of that inherent ability.
    • People keep bringing up Satsuki's reality marble and assuming Roa could use it if he took Satsuki's body/soul. Lets all remember how reality marbles work shall we? 1. They are part of your soul and will reject you if either your soul changes too much, your nature changes too suddenly, or if they're nature is rejected by you. Shirou's nature was the endless struggle between his ideal and the reality of the fact that he couldn't save everyone. Archers reality marble was the same, but skewed more towards the reality that his ideal was a failure. When Archer's arm is transplanted onto Shirou, Shirou loses the ability to project his reality marble OR Archer's reality marble. Now Satsuki's reality marble...lets consider its nature and hers...Satsuki's reality marble is named Depletion Garden, and it doesn't actually enhance her in anyways, rather it drains all the prana out of everyone trapped within. Lets think about that for a second, Satsuki's reality marble SUCKS all the magic out of the world, the art for it is a depressing bleak place with nothing but death. Satsuki's mental state is basically that of a massively depressed person who lives a seemingly pleasant life but in reality losses everything she wants and never gains anything in return. Her being vamped basically pushed her into the extremes of despair and hopelessness...and its then that she can activate her reality marble. Now Roa...Hes basically an egotistical optimist from what we have seen, who has become obsessed with his own immortality and Arcuied. Its pretty clear his personality is a miserable match for Satsuki's. Its incredibly...incredibly doubtful he would be able to use her reality marble. As for why he choose SHIKI? SHIKI's fricken power is named Immortality, he manipulates and steals life force...how is SHIKI NOT the obvious choice for an immortality obsessed vampire?
      • One nit pick: That's not how Depletion Garden works. It dissipates mana (external prana in the atmosphere), rather than od or stored prana and does not allow Satsuki to absorb it.
      • Because SHIKI's "immortality" was weaker than Roa's own regeneration power? SHIKI's not immortal so much as incredibly hard to kill (he survives self-inflicted lethal wounds routinely, and was functioning just fine with only an upper body before Akiha ripped him apart), and all fusion does is match his life level to Shiki's. It may have only been due to the full moon, but Roa literally regenerated everything from his ankles up after Arcueid did something even more thorough to him. And who exactly has been saying that Roa would get Satsuki's reality marble? Of course he wouldn't; he wouldn't have Satsuki's personality and soul. He also doesn't need her reality marble, he's got his own. Also, in Roa's own words, he valued Ciel as a host far more than SHIKI, because while Elesia certainly was a working-class human rather than his favored upper-crust, she also had a huge prana capacity similar to the original Roa...on the level of a servant spirit. Satsuki is supposed to be even stronger.
  • So, if no exceptional dexterity is required for Shiki to cut the lines of death and to pierce the points of death, does it also mean that were he armed with a gun and a full-metal jacket bullets, he wouldn't have to aim to hit people's death points? Or does the piercing part require direct physical effort, effectively restricting him to bladed weapons? In such case, would shooting someone's death point at point blank range kill him?
    • It does require exceptional dexterity. Dexterity just happens to be something the Nanaya family cultivated in bounds, and Shiki's no exception. And considering the other restrictions on the Eyes - it has to be by his hand, he can't actually direct other people to the lines (even if he personally guided their hands) - I doubt a gun would work, even point blank. Unless he shoved the bullet into the point, of course...
  • So what exactly is the deal with the status of Satsuki? Dies in some routes in Tsukihime, implied to have gotten vamped in all of them. Is definitely dead in Kagetsu Tohya from Shiki's thoughts when he visits the Back Alley after Nanaya's gone, and from the short story "Drinking Dreaming Moon." Also implied to be dead in the first Melty Blood by Sion and Shiki's conversation. And then from Melty Blood React onwards, she's alive with no explanation.
    • Confirmably dead in the Far Side routes. Possibly vamped in the Near Side routes (see WMG for arguments against). Dead in Kagetsu Tohya, which draws canon from all five Tsukihime routes. Confirmably vamped in Satsuki route, but apparently not dead. Easiest explanation for Melty Blood is that she really isn't dead, but Shiki believes that she is, and Satsuki has some reason to hide from him. The people we know realize she's alive include Len (who drafts Sacchin into seeking and destroying White Len), Ciel (Satsuki's mid-boss, who probably wouldn't bother informing Shiki), and of course Sion (who's initial assumption was based off of Shiki's etherlite data, but who later develops a friendship with Satsuki and keeps her secret).
      • Either in Tsukibako or Kagetsu Tohya it's mentioned that the Satsuki route would have had her vamped and a showdown between Shiki and Roa. And it's fairly certain that she was vamped in every route considering that the same day she walks with Shiki she goes to the city at night and disappears the next day.
  • Our hero can cut anything by tracing along the lines. Mostly, we see him do this with a knife, and in the manga adaption his fingers. Why don't they take full advantage of that concept and have a blast cutting things with keys or sewing needles?
    • Did you miss the part where it was stated that Shiki's mind will implode if he uses the eyes of death perception too much?
  • Why does everyone talk about a Tsukihime anime when there is none so far?
    • Because people are cruel.
    • Because the meme is overused, perhaps? Not denying that it was a terrible adaptation, but it really wasn't that bad an anime on its own merits.
      • Anime was decent independently, but they should've just made a rip-off plot with different characters than called it Tsukihime. Eroges are practically made by the quality of the characters more so than the plot, and when you change the characters... meh.
    • It wasnt bad. It just wasnt good enough. This Troper watched it years ago and before I played the VN, I couldnt recall what it was about. I knew who the heroes were, but who were the villains? How it ended? I just didnt remember anything, despite the fact that now Im a Nasuverse fan. In short- its not memorable.
  • How did Ciel get tattoos on a perpetually time reversing body?
    • They're supposed to be paintings. As for how she paints her own back... "Some questions do not need to be asked, Tohno-kun."
  • Why does everyone think that Ciel has strong Christian beliefs? IIRC, she says that her nun-dress is basically cosplay and whenever she mentions God or prayer, its usually when she's teasing Shiki. The fact that she leaves or is planning to leave the Burial Agency in her good ending and in her Tsukihime 2 Prelude, respectively, combined with the torture that the church put her through for years on end, it seems more reasonable to think that she's allying herself with them because she has a personal hatred for vampires and a much greater hatred/deathwish emotional combo-platter towards Roa in particular, and they are the most dangerous enemy for the former and have an anti-reincarnation conceptional weapon for the latter. On the other hand, if Vatican City was located in India, then she might just stay with them for the food.
    • It's possible that she is devout, but simply doesn't take Catholic dogma or the Church all that seriously; religious belief and loyalty to a religious institution don't necessarily always coincide. The Burial Agency itself is explicitly heretical and deep undercover, and they don't actually care all too much about the level of faith in their members. Hell, you want to talk about alliances of convenience? Merem frickin' Solomon, Dead Apostle Ancestor #20 and fanatical fanboy of Crimson Moon/Arcueid, is one of the top seven burial agents, and he basically just joined because he loves collecting treasure. Ciel's almost certainly a similar case, but it would be pretty odd if she didn't have some faith, even if it was simply personal.

  • Why doesn't Arcueid show up in the Far Side story more often then one brief instance? She's dogmatically hunting down Roa, and it's established in Ciel's route that she can tell when he is still around or jumped ship to a new host. She wouldn't just give up or anything, and he doesn't go away if he's surpressed by SHIKI, not to mention that he kills people in the same spot. You'd think she'd be more on the ball in the Farside route, Chaos was just another target but not her main one so unless he kills her I found it weird she didn't have a bigger role.
    • The real reason is because Arcuied's presence completely screws up Kohaku's plans, but I suppose the canon explanation is that she didn't leave, and she's still looking, but she's just really bad at it.
    • One plausible explanation is that she simply never found him. Since Roa was undercover, her plan basically revolved around "kill his servants to flush him out of hiding, then physically track him down," and it's likely SHIKI was simply harder to track; perhaps his presence as Roa was weaker, perhaps he needed to feed less often (likely using Kohaku for that purpose), etc. The other distinct possibility is that her fight with Nrvnqsr put her out of commission in some way. He is, after all, not only one of the 27 Dead Apostle Ancestors, but he's one of the top 13 DAA considered ridiculously difficult to kill, and Arcueid herself admits that even if she were at full power, he was one person she never, ever wanted to meet. Whether Arcueid was killed or not (also pretty unlikely), she was probably at least distracted for a long time.
  • One of the biggest plot holes in the story comes right at the start- the true power of Shiki's eyes is that nothing whatsoever can survive him using them, whether by regeneration, reincarnation, or anything since striking the lines of death inflicts death itself on the target even before inflicting a cause. Which raises the obvious question- no matter how much power she had to expend to put herself back together, how the hell did Arcueid survive in the first place?
    • Basically it works like this: stabbing the dot on something destroys the existence of it. Cutting the lines merely destroys the parts being severed. Shiki cut Arcueid's lines, thus destroying her body, but not her existence, and Arcueid's nature allows her to survive losing her body and reconstruct it from scratch. The dot vs line thing is a pretty important part of Shiki's power; Roa can see the lines as well during the ending of Arcueid's route, but he has no understanding of the dots, which is why, in the last instant, he's terrified of Shiki.
      • Not exactly. Roa can see the lines and dots representing life (specifically, the lines of life are in the same locations as lines of death, but the dots of life are in completely different spots, according to the manga), which by taking its life away, it "kills" the enemy. Which is why he can ONLY see lines on living objects. and why he failed to kill Shiki even though he stabbed him on the dot. And that is why he is so terrified when Shiki claimed that he can see death in literally concrete object, including the hallways, and walls.
      • It is also mentioned Roa can not see the dots and that this one of the biggest differences between him and Shiki. As said, cuting through the lines means only the part cut is severed, while stabbing the dots means the end of the existence. The lines represent death, but of the localized point, while the dot (which is where the lines flux from) represent the death of the whole being. This is why Shiki causes only localized destruction when cutting through the lines, but destroyed the whole hallway by stabbing a dot. About the original question, as said, Arcueid could survive because she doesn't really need her body and can survive even without it. Note she mention she couldn't regenerate it as usual, and had to make a new one from scratch (which is why she become so weak).

  • How did Nrvnqsr Chaos create a Soil of Genesis out of the dog to bind Shiki AFTER he'd stabbed its point? Shouldn't it have been reduced to useless biomass? Also, as a separate question; why could Arcueid heal Shiki with a portion of the recently slain Nrvnqsr's remains in her route, but not in Ciel's?

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