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* ValuesDissonance: Partway through, they started to imply VagueAge with Karen, joking either she made a deal with the devil, or was so perpetually filled with pills and alcohol, she was somehow pickled and therefore immortal. She then would occasionally make a comment that would sound more appropriate coming from a bigoted person from the turn of the ''last'' century. She refused to believe that a woman could be a doctor, and when Rosario once said that she played Maria in a production of ''The Sound of Music,'' Karen said she would have paid six chickens to see that (Rosario's response: "It was an Equity Theater, you racist bitch.") Frequently she comments that she believes than El Salvador (where Rosario is from) is some dusty, barren SouthOfTheBorder LatinLand stereotype.

Changed: 111

Removed: 149

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Not minor characters


* EnsembleDarkhorse:
** Will&Grace? More like Jack&Karen.
** Snarker supreme Rosario is also popular with many fans especially thanks to her funny interactions with Karen.

to:

* EnsembleDarkhorse:
** Will&Grace? More like Jack&Karen.
**
EnsembleDarkhorse: Snarker supreme Rosario is also popular with many fans especially thanks to her funny interactions with Karen.

Added: 829

Changed: 1895

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None


* EnsembleDarkhorse: For most people, either CrazyAwesome Karen or Snarker supreme Rosario.
* FairForItsDay: Offensive as it may have sometimes seemed, by the time it ended, it was one of the first American shows with a gay man as a central character, and remains one of few not relegated to cable at midnight.

to:

* EnsembleDarkhorse: For most people, either CrazyAwesome Karen or EnsembleDarkhorse:
** Will&Grace? More like Jack&Karen.
**
Snarker supreme Rosario.
Rosario is also popular with many fans especially thanks to her funny interactions with Karen.
* FairForItsDay: FairForItsDay:
**
Offensive as it may have sometimes seemed, by the time it ended, it was one of the first American shows with a gay man as a central character, and remains one of few not relegated to cable at midnight.



* HollywoodPudgy: Jack regularly calls Will fat, but is the only one to do so.

to:

* HollywoodPudgy: HollywoodPudgy:
**
Jack regularly calls Will fat, but is the only one to do so.



* LesYay: Karen and Grace got to kiss far more than Will or Jack ever did.
** Karen also has quite a bit of FoeYay with Lorraine. Best summed up when Lorraine was trying to steal some of Karen's jewels. After the takes off the visible jewels, and the ones hiding in her cleavage, Karen merely responds, "And...?" Lorraine then spreads her legs further apart and ''more jewels fall to the floor.'' Karen's response? "Impressive. Had we met under different circumstances, this might be 'hello' instead of 'goodbye.'"
*** Also in one episode, Karen mentioned having a crush on someone with long blonde hair as a kid, but she couldn't remember whether said crush was male or female.
* RetroactiveRecognition: In "Fagmalion" part four, Karen dated a handsome, intense maintenance man named Anton. About seven years later, his actor is providing the voice of a [[PrincessAndTheFrog handsome, less-than-intense prince-turned-frog.]]
** She also once had a Thanksgiving hookup with a plumber, at Stan's behest--played by Mullally's real-life husband Nick Offerman, now well-known as [[Series/ParksAndRecreation Ron Swanson.]]

to:

* LesYay: HoYay: The two main guys on the show are both gay, so it's obvious they get this, bordering on actual ShipTease in several episodes.
* LesYay:
**
Karen and Grace got to kiss far more than Will or Jack ever did.
** Karen also has quite a bit of FoeYay with Lorraine. Best summed up when Lorraine was trying to steal some of Karen's jewels. After the takes off the visible jewels, and the ones hiding in her cleavage, Karen merely responds, "And...?" Lorraine then spreads her legs further apart and ''more jewels fall to the floor.'' Karen's response? "Impressive. Had we met under different circumstances, this might be 'hello' instead of 'goodbye.'"
*** Also in ** In one episode, Karen mentioned having a crush on someone with long blonde hair as a kid, but she couldn't remember whether said crush was male or female.
* RetroactiveRecognition: In RetroactiveRecognition:
**In
"Fagmalion" part four, Karen dated a handsome, intense maintenance man named Anton. About seven years later, his actor is providing the voice of a [[PrincessAndTheFrog handsome, less-than-intense prince-turned-frog.]]
** She also once had a Thanksgiving hookup with a plumber, at Stan's behest--played by Mullally's real-life husband Nick Offerman, now well-known as [[Series/ParksAndRecreation Ron Swanson.]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** She also once had a Thanksgiving hookup with a plumber, at Stan's behest--played by Mullally's real-life husband Nick Offerman, now well-known as [[ParksAndRecreation Ron Swanson.]]

to:

** She also once had a Thanksgiving hookup with a plumber, at Stan's behest--played by Mullally's real-life husband Nick Offerman, now well-known as [[ParksAndRecreation [[Series/ParksAndRecreation Ron Swanson.]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* ValuesDissonance: Partway through, they started to imply VagueAge with Karen, joking either she made a deal with the devil, or was so perpetually filled with pills and alcohol, she was somehow pickled and therefore immortal. She then would occasionally make a comment that would sound more appropriate coming from a bigoted person from the turn of the ''last'' century. She refused to believe that a woman could be a doctor, and when Rosario once said that she played Maria in a production of ''The Sound of Music,'' Karen said she would have paid six chickens to see that (Rosario's response: "It was an Equity Theater, you racist bitch.") Frequently she comments that she believes than El Salvador (where Rosario is from) is come dusty, barren SouthOfTheBorder LatinLand stereotype.

to:

* ValuesDissonance: Partway through, they started to imply VagueAge with Karen, joking either she made a deal with the devil, or was so perpetually filled with pills and alcohol, she was somehow pickled and therefore immortal. She then would occasionally make a comment that would sound more appropriate coming from a bigoted person from the turn of the ''last'' century. She refused to believe that a woman could be a doctor, and when Rosario once said that she played Maria in a production of ''The Sound of Music,'' Karen said she would have paid six chickens to see that (Rosario's response: "It was an Equity Theater, you racist bitch.") Frequently she comments that she believes than El Salvador (where Rosario is from) is come some dusty, barren SouthOfTheBorder LatinLand stereotype.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* FamilyUnfriendlyAesop: Often, but never to be taken seriously.
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None


* FairForItsDay: Offensive as it may have sometimes seemed by the time it ended, it was one of the first American shows with a gay man as a central character, and remains one of few not relegated to cable at midnight.

to:

* FairForItsDay: Offensive as it may have sometimes seemed seemed, by the time it ended, it was one of the first American shows with a gay man as a central character, and remains one of few not relegated to cable at midnight.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
moving to awesome


* CrowningMomentOfAwesome: In "Grace Replaced", after Grace and Val went from physically and verbally fighting eachother, to talking it out at Will's behest, to almost immediately becoming good friends, complete with Val trying on Grace's clothes to replace the shirt she tore, Will laughs to himself and says "straight men must be out of their ''minds''."
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* ValuesDissonance: Partway through, they started to imply VagueAge with Karen, joking either she made a deal with the devil, or was so perpetually filled with pills and alcohol, she was somehow pickled and therefore immortal. She then would occasionally make a comment that would sound more appropriate coming from a bigoted person from the turn of the ''last'' century. She refused to believe that a woman could be a doctor, and when Rosario once said that she played Maria in a production of ''The Sound of Music,'' Karen said she would have paid six chickens to see that (Rosario's response: "It was an Equity Theater, you racist bitch.") Frequently she comments that she believes than El Salvador (where Rosario is from) is come dusty, barren SouthOfTheBorder LatinLand stereotype.

to:

* ValuesDissonance: Partway through, they started to imply VagueAge with Karen, joking either she made a deal with the devil, or was so perpetually filled with pills and alcohol, she was somehow pickled and therefore immortal. She then would occasionally make a comment that would sound more appropriate coming from a bigoted person from the turn of the ''last'' century. She refused to believe that a woman could be a doctor, and when Rosario once said that she played Maria in a production of ''The Sound of Music,'' Karen said she would have paid six chickens to see that (Rosario's response: "It was an Equity Theater, you racist bitch.") Frequently she comments that she believes than El Salvador (where Rosario is from) is come dusty, barren SouthOfTheBorder LatinLand stereotype.stereotype.

----
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correcting my errors


* CrowningMomentOfAwesome: In "Grace Replaced", after Grace and Val went from Physically and verbally fighting eachother, to talking it out at Will's behest, to almost immediately becoming good friends, complete with Val trying on Grace's clothes to replace the shirt she tore, Will laughs to himself and says "straight men must be out of their ''minds''.

to:

* CrowningMomentOfAwesome: In "Grace Replaced", after Grace and Val went from Physically physically and verbally fighting eachother, to talking it out at Will's behest, to almost immediately becoming good friends, complete with Val trying on Grace's clothes to replace the shirt she tore, Will laughs to himself and says "straight men must be out of their ''minds''."
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
cmoa

Added DiffLines:

* CrowningMomentOfAwesome: In "Grace Replaced", after Grace and Val went from Physically and verbally fighting eachother, to talking it out at Will's behest, to almost immediately becoming good friends, complete with Val trying on Grace's clothes to replace the shirt she tore, Will laughs to himself and says "straight men must be out of their ''minds''.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** One interview with the creators indicates that they were fully aware that they were at a tipping point in social attitudes and were trying to play a delicate balancing act. Essentially they knew that they couldn't have a StraightGay character like Will without part of the audience saying "That's not what ''real'' gay people are like!" and they couldn't have a CampGay character like Jack without the other prat of the audience saying the same thing. So they put both in there and hoped they balanced out. The fact that Will became a bit more camp over time was most likely due to RuleOfFunny, but also possibly the fact that Jack started getting episodes that took his feelings and emotions seriously too... they were still in balance.

to:

** One interview with the creators indicates that they were fully aware that they were at a tipping point in social attitudes and were trying to play a delicate balancing act. Essentially they knew that they couldn't have a StraightGay character like Will without part of the audience saying "That's not what ''real'' gay people are like!" and they couldn't have a CampGay character like Jack without the other prat part of the audience saying the same thing. So they put both in there and hoped they balanced out. The fact that Will became a bit more camp over time was most likely due to RuleOfFunny, but also possibly the fact that Jack started getting episodes that took his feelings and emotions seriously too... they were still in balance.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

** One interview with the creators indicates that they were fully aware that they were at a tipping point in social attitudes and were trying to play a delicate balancing act. Essentially they knew that they couldn't have a StraightGay character like Will without part of the audience saying "That's not what ''real'' gay people are like!" and they couldn't have a CampGay character like Jack without the other prat of the audience saying the same thing. So they put both in there and hoped they balanced out. The fact that Will became a bit more camp over time was most likely due to RuleOfFunny, but also possibly the fact that Jack started getting episodes that took his feelings and emotions seriously too... they were still in balance.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** Karen also has quite a bit of FoeYay with Lorraine.

to:

** Karen also has quite a bit of FoeYay with Lorraine. Best summed up when Lorraine was trying to steal some of Karen's jewels. After the takes off the visible jewels, and the ones hiding in her cleavage, Karen merely responds, "And...?" Lorraine then spreads her legs further apart and ''more jewels fall to the floor.'' Karen's response? "Impressive. Had we met under different circumstances, this might be 'hello' instead of 'goodbye.'"
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** Additionally, the show's original run happened right during the tipping point of cultural acceptance of homosexuality. As such, it started out as a landmark step forward to have two gay leads on a popular network show in prime time. However, as homosexuality became more socially acceptable and more serious material was made (and, it probably needs to be said, a certain amount of SeasonalRot occurred that left them falling back more and more on gay stereotypes and Flanderized Will as a much campier version of himself,) it went from a landmark step forward to something of an OldShame.

to:

** Additionally, the show's original run happened right during the tipping point of cultural acceptance of homosexuality. As such, it started out as a landmark step forward to have two gay leads on a popular network show in prime time. However, as homosexuality became more socially acceptable and more serious material was made (and, it probably needs to be said, a certain amount of SeasonalRot occurred that left them falling back more made, the show seemed less fresh and more on gay stereotypes and Flanderized Will as a much campier version of himself,) it went from a landmark step forward to something of an OldShame.daring.
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This isn\'t YMMV. Moving.


* HollywoodDateless: It's hard to believe someone with Will's looks, intellect, kind heart and at worst {{Adorkable}} charms hasn't got a legion of men competing for him.
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None


* HollywoodDateless: It's hard to believe someone with Will's looks, intellect, kind heart and at worst {{Adorkable}} charms hasn't got men competing for him.

to:

* HollywoodDateless: It's hard to believe someone with Will's looks, intellect, kind heart and at worst {{Adorkable}} charms hasn't got a legion of men competing for him.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

* HollywoodDateless: It's hard to believe someone with Will's looks, intellect, kind heart and at worst {{Adorkable}} charms hasn't got men competing for him.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

* EnsembleDarkhorse: For most people, either CrazyAwesome Karen or Snarker supreme Rosario.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

** Additionally, the show's original run happened right during the tipping point of cultural acceptance of homosexuality. As such, it started out as a landmark step forward to have two gay leads on a popular network show in prime time. However, as homosexuality became more socially acceptable and more serious material was made (and, it probably needs to be said, a certain amount of SeasonalRot occurred that left them falling back more and more on gay stereotypes and Flanderized Will as a much campier version of himself,) it went from a landmark step forward to something of an OldShame.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* HollywoodPudgy: Jack regularly calls Will fat, but is the only one to do so.
** There were a few rare barbs thrown at Grace by Karen (who usually called her boyish and flat-chested instead.) However, this showed clearly that this was deliberate. A few critics mentioned that the fat jokes thrown at Grace weren't as funny when Debra Messing was pregnant, showing that this was supposed to play off the ValuesDissonance of making fat jokes toward the slender [=McCormick=] and Messing, similar to the fat jokes made toward Vivian Vance during ''ILoveLucy.''



* ValuesDissonance: Partway through, they started to imply VagueAge with Karen, joking either she made a deal with the devil, or was so perpetually filled with pills and alcohol, she was somehow pickled and therefore immortal. She then would occasionally make a comment that would sound more appropriate coming from a bigoted person from the turn of the ''last'' century. She refused to believe that a woman could be a doctor, and when Rosario once said that she played Maria in a production of ''The Sound of Music,'' Karen said she would have paid six chickens to see that (Rosario's response: "It was an Equity Theater, you racist bitch.") Frequently she comments that she believes than El Salvador (where Rosario is from) is come dusty, barren SouthOfTheBorder LatinLand stereotype.

to:

* ValuesDissonance: Partway through, they started to imply VagueAge with Karen, joking either she made a deal with the devil, or was so perpetually filled with pills and alcohol, she was somehow pickled and therefore immortal. She then would occasionally make a comment that would sound more appropriate coming from a bigoted person from the turn of the ''last'' century. She refused to believe that a woman could be a doctor, and when Rosario once said that she played Maria in a production of ''The Sound of Music,'' Karen said she would have paid six chickens to see that (Rosario's response: "It was an Equity Theater, you racist bitch.") Frequently she comments that she believes than El Salvador (where Rosario is from) is come dusty, barren SouthOfTheBorder LatinLand stereotype.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

* FairForItsDay: Offensive as it may have sometimes seemed by the time it ended, it was one of the first American shows with a gay man as a central character, and remains one of few not relegated to cable at midnight.


Added DiffLines:

* FreudWasRight: Jack has the classic Freudian family pattern for homosexuality, but the trope's averted with Will: he's always had a good relationship with his father, and was close to his older brother Sam until he told Sam what he thought of Sam's fiancée. Will is, however, his mother's favourite. Will's gay friend Larry also appears to be very close to his mother. Elliot, on the other hand, also has the classic family pattern for homosexuality but he's straight as an arrow.
* LesYay: Karen and Grace got to kiss far more than Will or Jack ever did.
** Karen also has quite a bit of FoeYay with Lorraine.
*** Also in one episode, Karen mentioned having a crush on someone with long blonde hair as a kid, but she couldn't remember whether said crush was male or female.


Added DiffLines:

* ValuesDissonance: Partway through, they started to imply VagueAge with Karen, joking either she made a deal with the devil, or was so perpetually filled with pills and alcohol, she was somehow pickled and therefore immortal. She then would occasionally make a comment that would sound more appropriate coming from a bigoted person from the turn of the ''last'' century. She refused to believe that a woman could be a doctor, and when Rosario once said that she played Maria in a production of ''The Sound of Music,'' Karen said she would have paid six chickens to see that (Rosario's response: "It was an Equity Theater, you racist bitch.") Frequently she comments that she believes than El Salvador (where Rosario is from) is come dusty, barren SouthOfTheBorder LatinLand stereotype.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

* FamilyUnfriendlyAesop: Often, but never to be taken seriously.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* RetroactiveRecognition: In "Fagmalion" part four, Karen dated a handsome, intense maintenance man named Anton. About seven years later, his actor is providing the voice of a [[PrincessAndTheFrog handsome, less-than-intense prince-turned-frog.]]

to:

* RetroactiveRecognition: In "Fagmalion" part four, Karen dated a handsome, intense maintenance man named Anton. About seven years later, his actor is providing the voice of a [[PrincessAndTheFrog handsome, less-than-intense prince-turned-frog.]]
** She also once had a Thanksgiving hookup with a plumber, at Stan's behest--played by Mullally's real-life husband Nick Offerman, now well-known as [[ParksAndRecreation Ron Swanson.
]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


Added: 401

Changed: 33

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None


* CrazyAwesome: Karen, full stop.

to:


* CrackPairing: Would you believe that there is actually a very large portion of fanfiction writers that 'ship Will/Karen?
* CrazyAwesome: Karen, full stop.stop.
* RetroactiveRecognition: In "Fagmalion" part four, Karen dated a handsome, intense maintenance man named Anton. About seven years later, his actor is providing the voice of a [[PrincessAndTheFrog handsome, less-than-intense prince-turned-frog.]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Love It Or Hate It is now In-Universe only. Misaimed Fandom had no explanation and is missing from the Misaimed Fandom page. Deleting.


* CrazyAwesome: Karen, full stop.
* LoveItOrHateIt
* MisaimedFandom

to:

* CrazyAwesome: Karen, full stop.
* LoveItOrHateIt
* MisaimedFandom
stop.
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* CharacterDerailment: Will goes from being Grace's calm and rational counterpart to being as hysterical as she.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

* CrazyAwesome: Karen, full stop.

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