Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Trope has been cut, as per this
TRS thread.
TRS thread.Changed line(s) 46 (click to see context) from:
** The attacks of Magneto in Washington DC and Hulk in New York were not treated as standard superhero conflicts, but as 9/11 type of disasters, where NothingIsTheSameAnymore after them. This served as GenreDeconstruction, as they explored the consequences that those attacks would have if PlotArmor, ConvenientlyEmptyBuilding, NoEndorHolocaust and the like were turned off. However, later writers [[IndecisiveDeconstruction could not keep up with the deconstruction aspect]] of the Ultimates.
to:
** The attacks of Magneto in Washington DC and Hulk in New York were not treated as standard superhero conflicts, but as 9/11 type of disasters, where NothingIsTheSameAnymore after them. This served as GenreDeconstruction, as they explored the consequences that those attacks would have if PlotArmor, ConvenientlyEmptyBuilding, NoEndorHolocaust and the like were turned off. However, later writers [[IndecisiveDeconstruction could not keep up with the deconstruction aspect]] aspect of the Ultimates.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
** Have you ever heard about the original Bombshell? No? A blonde and muscular stoic terrorist, who used actual bombs? Not ringing any bells? Don't worry, she only appeared in the short-lived ''Hawkeye'' miniseries in 1983, and then suffered the ChuckCunninghamSyndrome. ComicBook/{{Bombshell}} only took the name and the explosions motiff from her, and nothing else. She was brought to the mainstream comics alongside Miles' cast, and joined the Champions in 2019. And no, nobody asked about the "original" Bombshell during this.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
That was a decade afterwards, and has no references to the Ultimates. The French resistance is part of WWII, an integral part of Cap's character, so the mention alone does not make it a Take That
Changed line(s) 46 (click to see context) from:
** In the climax of the first ''Ultimates'' series, Captain America refused to surrender to an alien conqueror that was PiggybackingOnHitler, and said that the A on his costume "does not stand for 'France'". The scene was a hit because of its DoubleMeaning: it pointed to the armistice of June 22, 1940, where the French government surrendered to the Nazis in WWII, but it was also a subtle TakeThat to modern France, as France had refused to join the US in the ongoing War on Terror. The effect was less effective years later, as the wars in the Middle East became less popular in the US and the backlash against France for not joining it became less noteworthy. That scene would get its own TakeThat in Creator/EdBrubaker's run on the mainline Captain America comics where Cap praised the bravery of the French resistance.
to:
** In the climax of the first ''Ultimates'' series, Captain America refused to surrender to an alien conqueror that was PiggybackingOnHitler, and said that the A on his costume "does not stand for 'France'". The scene was a hit because of its DoubleMeaning: it pointed to the armistice of June 22, 1940, where the French government surrendered to the Nazis in WWII, but it was also a subtle TakeThat to modern France, as France had refused to join the US in the ongoing War on Terror. The effect was less effective years later, as the wars in the Middle East became less popular in the US and the backlash against France for not joining it became less noteworthy. That scene would get its own TakeThat in Creator/EdBrubaker's run on the mainline Captain America comics where Cap praised the bravery of the French resistance.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 19 (click to see context) from:
** Ultimate ComicBook/NickFury, so much that he is currently better known than the Caucasian mainstream version; he was even used for [[Franchise/MarvelCinematicUniverse the movie adaptations]] albeit his personality there is nothing like his Ultimate character.
to:
** Ultimate ComicBook/NickFury, so much that he is currently better known than the Caucasian mainstream version; he was even used for [[Franchise/MarvelCinematicUniverse the movie adaptations]] albeit his personality there is nothing like his Ultimate character.characterization.
Changed line(s) 37 (click to see context) from:
* SavedByTheFans: Marvel cancelled the Ultimate Marvel line in 2015, during the ''Secret Wars'' event. Some fans did not like this, and wanted it to come back, so [[https://www.cbr.com/ultimate-universes-return-bendis-explains/ Bendis brought it back]] in ''Spider-Men II''.
to:
* SavedByTheFans: Marvel cancelled canceled the Ultimate Marvel line in 2015, during the ''Secret Wars'' event. Some fans did not like this, this and wanted it to come back, so [[https://www.cbr.com/ultimate-universes-return-bendis-explains/ Bendis brought it back]] in ''Spider-Men II''.
Changed line(s) 41 (click to see context) from:
* SeasonalRot: The Creator/JephLoeb era (from ''Ultimate Power'' until the end of ''Ultimate X'') in general and ''Ultimates Volume 3'' and ''Ultimatum'' in particular, and the start of the rot period, and most definitely the height of it. It's easy to see why Marvel relaunched the line as Ultimate Comics afterwards. ''Ultimate Spider-Man'' is usually exempt from this, though, and hasn't ever really had been hit with the trope, with the worst of it being volume 3's BrokenBase regarding Miles Morales.
to:
* SeasonalRot: The Creator/JephLoeb era (from ''Ultimate Power'' until the end of ''Ultimate X'') in general and ''Ultimates Volume 3'' and ''Ultimatum'' in particular, and the start of the rot period, and most definitely the height of it. It's easy to see why Marvel relaunched the line as Ultimate Comics afterwards.afterward. ''Ultimate Spider-Man'' is usually exempt from this, though, and hasn't ever really had been hit with the trope, with the worst of it being volume 3's BrokenBase regarding Miles Morales.
Changed line(s) 43,46 (click to see context) from:
** After the line's huge success in its early days, Marvel started incorporating some of its stylistic trademarks (e.g the more cinematic pacing and storytelling) into its main universe (under the pens of Creator/MarkMillar and Creator/BrianMichaelBendis to boot), thus leaving the Ultimate Universe without a distinct voice. This is one of the main reasons that led to Ultimate Marvel's sales decline in the mid-late 00's
** Another initial positive aspect of the Ultimate universe was that it was a fresh start, without the ContinuityLockOut that the mainstream Marvel universe had after so many decades. This aspect was lost simply by the passing of time, as the Ultimate universe would eventually get to a Continuity Lock Out of its own.
** The attacks of Magneto in Washington DC and Hulk in New York were not treated as standard superhero conflicts, but as 9-11 type of disasters, where NothingIsTheSameAnymore after them. This served as GenreDeconstruction, as they explored the consequences that those attacks would have if PlotArmor, ConvenientlyEmptyBuilding, NoEndorHolocaust and the like were turned off. However, later writers [[IndecisiveDeconstruction could not keep up with the deconstruction aspect]] of the Ultimates.
** In the climax of the first series, Captain America refused to surrender to an alien conqueror that was PiggybackingOnHitler, and said that the A "does not stand for 'France'". The scene was a hit because of its DoubleMeaning: it pointed to the armistice of 22 June 1940, during WWII, but it was also a subtle TakeThat to modern France, as France had refused to join the US in the ongoing War on Terror. The effect was less effective years later, as the war on terror became less popular in the US (and the backlash against France for not joining it became less noteworthy). The French resistance during WWII was ignored in the scene for the sake of the joke, which became more jarring when the grudge in the US against France had decreased.
** Another initial positive aspect of the Ultimate universe was that it was a fresh start, without the ContinuityLockOut that the mainstream Marvel universe had after so many decades. This aspect was lost simply by the passing of time, as the Ultimate universe would eventually get to a Continuity Lock Out of its own.
** The attacks of Magneto in Washington DC and Hulk in New York were not treated as standard superhero conflicts, but as 9-11 type of disasters, where NothingIsTheSameAnymore after them. This served as GenreDeconstruction, as they explored the consequences that those attacks would have if PlotArmor, ConvenientlyEmptyBuilding, NoEndorHolocaust and the like were turned off. However, later writers [[IndecisiveDeconstruction could not keep up with the deconstruction aspect]] of the Ultimates.
** In the climax of the first series, Captain America refused to surrender to an alien conqueror that was PiggybackingOnHitler, and said that the A "does not stand for 'France'". The scene was a hit because of its DoubleMeaning: it pointed to the armistice of 22 June 1940, during WWII, but it was also a subtle TakeThat to modern France, as France had refused to join the US in the ongoing War on Terror. The effect was less effective years later, as the war on terror became less popular in the US (and the backlash against France for not joining it became less noteworthy). The French resistance during WWII was ignored in the scene for the sake of the joke, which became more jarring when the grudge in the US against France had decreased.
to:
** After the line's huge success in its early days, Marvel started incorporating some of its stylistic trademarks (e.g the more cinematic pacing and storytelling) into its main universe (under the pens of Creator/MarkMillar and Creator/BrianMichaelBendis to boot), thus leaving the Ultimate Universe without a distinct voice. This is one of the main reasons that led to Ultimate Marvel's sales decline in the mid-late 00's
00's.
** Another initial positive aspect of the Ultimate universe was that it was a fresh start, without the ContinuityLockOut that the mainstream Marvel universe had after so many decades. This aspect was lost simply by the passing of time, as the Ultimate universe would eventually get to a ContinuityLock Out Lockout of its own.
** The attacks of Magneto in Washington DC and Hulk in New York were not treated as standard superhero conflicts, but as9-11 9/11 type of disasters, where NothingIsTheSameAnymore after them. This served as GenreDeconstruction, as they explored the consequences that those attacks would have if PlotArmor, ConvenientlyEmptyBuilding, NoEndorHolocaust and the like were turned off. However, later writers [[IndecisiveDeconstruction could not keep up with the deconstruction aspect]] of the Ultimates.
** In the climax of the first ''Ultimates'' series, Captain America refused to surrender to an alien conqueror that was PiggybackingOnHitler, and said that the A on his costume "does not stand for 'France'". The scene was a hit because of its DoubleMeaning: it pointed to the armistice of22 June 22, 1940, during where the French government surrendered to the Nazis in WWII, but it was also a subtle TakeThat to modern France, as France had refused to join the US in the ongoing War on Terror. The effect was less effective years later, as the war on terror wars in the Middle East became less popular in the US (and and the backlash against France for not joining it became less noteworthy). The noteworthy. That scene would get its own TakeThat in Creator/EdBrubaker's run on the mainline Captain America comics where Cap praised the bravery of the French resistance during WWII was ignored in the scene for the sake of the joke, which became more jarring when the grudge in the US against France had decreased. resistance.
** Another initial positive aspect of the Ultimate universe was that it was a fresh start, without the ContinuityLockOut that the mainstream Marvel universe had after so many decades. This aspect was lost simply by the passing of time, as the Ultimate universe would eventually get to a Continuity
** The attacks of Magneto in Washington DC and Hulk in New York were not treated as standard superhero conflicts, but as
** In the climax of the first ''Ultimates'' series, Captain America refused to surrender to an alien conqueror that was PiggybackingOnHitler, and said that the A on his costume "does not stand for 'France'". The scene was a hit because of its DoubleMeaning: it pointed to the armistice of
Changed line(s) 60 (click to see context) from:
* TheyChangedItNowItSucks: The portrayal of the X-Men and especially Magneto was likewise heavily disliked, since they were all made into jerks with very few likable characteristics and this ended up making their role as the "good" mutants [[DesignatedHero problematic]]. Specifically, Magneto being made into a genocidal psychopath with none of the [[NobleDemon redeeming]] [[WellIntentionedExtremist elements]] the mainstream version had was seen as a waste of a good villain, and which likewise made Professor X's mercy and willingness to try and redeem him seem especially pointless and suicidal. The twist at the end of ''Ultimatum'', [[spoiler:that the mutants are not a product of evolution]], is likewise seen as a cheapening of their entire mythos.
to:
* TheyChangedItNowItSucks: The portrayal of the X-Men and especially Magneto was likewise heavily disliked, disliked since they were all made into jerks with very few likable characteristics and this ended up making their role as the "good" mutants [[DesignatedHero problematic]]. Specifically, Magneto being made into a genocidal psychopath with none of the [[NobleDemon redeeming]] [[WellIntentionedExtremist elements]] the mainstream version had was seen as a waste of a good villain, and which likewise made Professor X's mercy and willingness to try and redeem him seem especially pointless and suicidal. The twist at the end of ''Ultimatum'', [[spoiler:that the mutants are not a product of evolution]], is likewise seen as a cheapening of their entire mythos.
Changed line(s) 72 (click to see context) from:
* ValuesDissonance: The edgy sexualization of the comics was intended to update the characters but it ended up going in the other direction in a few stories:
to:
* ValuesDissonance: The [[HotterAndSexier edgy sexualization sexualization]] of the comics was intended to update the characters but it ended up going in the other direction in a few stories:
Changed line(s) 78 (click to see context) from:
** ''Ultimates 3'' and ''Ultimatum'', by Creator/JephLoeb, were widely panned as bad works. It did not help that he was still coping with the death of his son, and that he was not familiar enough with Ultimate Marvel. His work improved with ''New Ultimates'' and ''X'', and the Ultimates and X-Men finally returned to their great quality when written by Jonathan Hickman and Nick Spencer.
to:
** ''Ultimates 3'' and ''Ultimatum'', by Creator/JephLoeb, were widely panned as bad works. It did not help that he was still [[CreatorBreakdown coping with the death of his son, son]] and that he was not familiar enough with Ultimate Marvel. His work improved with ''New Ultimates'' and ''X'', and the Ultimates and X-Men finally returned to their great quality when written by Jonathan Hickman and Nick Spencer.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 46 (click to see context) from:
** In the climax of the first series, Captain America refused to surrender to an alien conqueror that was PiggybackingOnHitler, and said that the A "does not stand for 'France'". The scene was a hit because of its DoubleMeaning: it pointed to the armistice of 22 June 1940, during WWII, but it was also a subtle TakeThat to modern France, as France had refused to join the US in the ongoing War on Terror. The effect was less effective years later, as the war on terror became less popular in the US (and the backlash against France for not joining it became less noteworthy).
to:
** In the climax of the first series, Captain America refused to surrender to an alien conqueror that was PiggybackingOnHitler, and said that the A "does not stand for 'France'". The scene was a hit because of its DoubleMeaning: it pointed to the armistice of 22 June 1940, during WWII, but it was also a subtle TakeThat to modern France, as France had refused to join the US in the ongoing War on Terror. The effect was less effective years later, as the war on terror became less popular in the US (and the backlash against France for not joining it became less noteworthy). The French resistance during WWII was ignored in the scene for the sake of the joke, which became more jarring when the grudge in the US against France had decreased.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
They Changed It Now It Sucks is a comparison between the new work and what was made before. Brubaker and the First Avenger came a decade after the Ultimates. Moved entry to Seinfield Is Unfunny, with higher detail on the French thing. Also removing meme taken out of context.
Changed line(s) 45 (click to see context) from:
** The attacks of Magneto in Washington DC and Hulk in New York were not treated as standard superhero conflicts, but as 9-11 type of disasters, where NothingIsTheSameAnymore after them. This served as, potentially, GenreDeconstruction, as they explored the consequences that those attacks would have if PlotArmor, ConvenientlyEmptyBuilding, NoEndorHolocaust and the like were turned off. However, later writers [[IndecisiveDeconstruction could not keep up with the deconstruction aspect]] of the Ultimates, and it devolved into an expendable alternate universe with What-If.
to:
** The attacks of Magneto in Washington DC and Hulk in New York were not treated as standard superhero conflicts, but as 9-11 type of disasters, where NothingIsTheSameAnymore after them. This served as, potentially, as GenreDeconstruction, as they explored the consequences that those attacks would have if PlotArmor, ConvenientlyEmptyBuilding, NoEndorHolocaust and the like were turned off. However, later writers [[IndecisiveDeconstruction could not keep up with the deconstruction aspect]] of the Ultimates, Ultimates.
** In the climax of the first series, Captain America refused to surrender to an alien conqueror that was PiggybackingOnHitler, and said that the A "does not stand for 'France'". The scene was a hit because of its DoubleMeaning: itdevolved into an expendable alternate universe with What-If.pointed to the armistice of 22 June 1940, during WWII, but it was also a subtle TakeThat to modern France, as France had refused to join the US in the ongoing War on Terror. The effect was less effective years later, as the war on terror became less popular in the US (and the backlash against France for not joining it became less noteworthy).
** In the climax of the first series, Captain America refused to surrender to an alien conqueror that was PiggybackingOnHitler, and said that the A "does not stand for 'France'". The scene was a hit because of its DoubleMeaning: it
Changed line(s) 59,61 (click to see context) from:
* TheyChangedItNowItSucks: Many fans had this attitude towards Ultimate Marvel changing the characters' personalities and origins.
** Ultimate Captain America is the biggest sticking point and for many, remains the embodiment of everything that is wrong with Ultimate Marvel. Millar intended it as a corrective for the manner in which Captain America seems an unblemished voice of {{Eagleland}} Type I but thanks to DatedHistory, when a new generation of comics fans became aware of the original context of his creation, it's come to be seen as a tone-deaf ShallowParody. Moreover, Creator/EdBrubaker's ''very'' well-received run on the mainstream Captain America titles, with its popular ''Winter Soldier'' storyline and more nuanced characterization, ended up selling better and reviving him for a modern audience, with the 616 version of the character being the main inspiration for the MCU take rather than the Ultimate version.
** The portrayal of the X-Men and especially Magneto was likewise heavily disliked, since they were all made into jerks with very few likable characteristics and this ended up making their role as the "good" mutants [[DesignatedHero problematic]], which was {{Lampshaded}} in the body-swap crossover issue with Spider-Man where Peter Parker insists that the reason people dislike the X-Men isn't because they are mutants but because they are jerks. Specifically, Magneto being made into a genocidal psychopath with none of the [[NobleDemon redeeming]] [[WellIntentionedExtremist elements]] the mainstream version had was seen as a waste of a good villain, and which likewise made Professor X's mercy and willingness to try and redeem him seem especially pointless and suicidal. The twist at the end of ''Ultimatum'', [[spoiler:that the mutants are not a product of evolution]], is likewise seen as a cheapening of their entire mythos.
** Ultimate Captain America is the biggest sticking point and for many, remains the embodiment of everything that is wrong with Ultimate Marvel. Millar intended it as a corrective for the manner in which Captain America seems an unblemished voice of {{Eagleland}} Type I but thanks to DatedHistory, when a new generation of comics fans became aware of the original context of his creation, it's come to be seen as a tone-deaf ShallowParody. Moreover, Creator/EdBrubaker's ''very'' well-received run on the mainstream Captain America titles, with its popular ''Winter Soldier'' storyline and more nuanced characterization, ended up selling better and reviving him for a modern audience, with the 616 version of the character being the main inspiration for the MCU take rather than the Ultimate version.
** The portrayal of the X-Men and especially Magneto was likewise heavily disliked, since they were all made into jerks with very few likable characteristics and this ended up making their role as the "good" mutants [[DesignatedHero problematic]], which was {{Lampshaded}} in the body-swap crossover issue with Spider-Man where Peter Parker insists that the reason people dislike the X-Men isn't because they are mutants but because they are jerks. Specifically, Magneto being made into a genocidal psychopath with none of the [[NobleDemon redeeming]] [[WellIntentionedExtremist elements]] the mainstream version had was seen as a waste of a good villain, and which likewise made Professor X's mercy and willingness to try and redeem him seem especially pointless and suicidal. The twist at the end of ''Ultimatum'', [[spoiler:that the mutants are not a product of evolution]], is likewise seen as a cheapening of their entire mythos.
to:
* TheyChangedItNowItSucks: Many fans had this attitude towards Ultimate Marvel changing the characters' personalities and origins.
** Ultimate Captain America is the biggest sticking point and for many, remains the embodiment of everything that is wrong with Ultimate Marvel. Millar intended it as a corrective for the manner in which Captain America seems an unblemished voice of {{Eagleland}} Type I but thanks to DatedHistory, when a new generation of comics fans became aware of the original context of his creation, it's come to be seen as a tone-deaf ShallowParody. Moreover, Creator/EdBrubaker's ''very'' well-received run on the mainstream Captain America titles, with its popular ''Winter Soldier'' storyline and more nuanced characterization, ended up selling better and reviving him for a modern audience, with the 616 version of the character being the main inspiration for the MCU take rather than the Ultimate version.
**The portrayal of the X-Men and especially Magneto was likewise heavily disliked, since they were all made into jerks with very few likable characteristics and this ended up making their role as the "good" mutants [[DesignatedHero problematic]], which was {{Lampshaded}} in the body-swap crossover issue with Spider-Man where Peter Parker insists that the reason people dislike the X-Men isn't because they are mutants but because they are jerks.problematic]]. Specifically, Magneto being made into a genocidal psychopath with none of the [[NobleDemon redeeming]] [[WellIntentionedExtremist elements]] the mainstream version had was seen as a waste of a good villain, and which likewise made Professor X's mercy and willingness to try and redeem him seem especially pointless and suicidal. The twist at the end of ''Ultimatum'', [[spoiler:that the mutants are not a product of evolution]], is likewise seen as a cheapening of their entire mythos.
** Ultimate Captain America is the biggest sticking point and for many, remains the embodiment of everything that is wrong with Ultimate Marvel. Millar intended it as a corrective for the manner in which Captain America seems an unblemished voice of {{Eagleland}} Type I but thanks to DatedHistory, when a new generation of comics fans became aware of the original context of his creation, it's come to be seen as a tone-deaf ShallowParody. Moreover, Creator/EdBrubaker's ''very'' well-received run on the mainstream Captain America titles, with its popular ''Winter Soldier'' storyline and more nuanced characterization, ended up selling better and reviving him for a modern audience, with the 616 version of the character being the main inspiration for the MCU take rather than the Ultimate version.
**
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
* TheScrappy:
** Most fans had really bad reactions toward Ultimate {{SelfDemonstrating/Deadpool}}, due to him being a psychopathic human supremacist rather than the CrazyAwesome ChaoticNeutral AntiHero character from the mainstream.
** Similarly, Ultimate Wolverine is also widely hated both fans of his mainstream counterpart and of the Ultimate Universe for his creepy sexual acts and obsessions. See ValuesDissonance below for more details.
** Most fans had really bad reactions toward Ultimate {{SelfDemonstrating/Deadpool}}, due to him being a psychopathic human supremacist rather than the CrazyAwesome ChaoticNeutral AntiHero character from the mainstream.
** Similarly, Ultimate Wolverine is also widely hated both fans of his mainstream counterpart and of the Ultimate Universe for his creepy sexual acts and obsessions. See ValuesDissonance below for more details.
Deleted line(s) 43,45 (click to see context) :
* TheScrappy:
** Most fans had really bad reactions toward Ultimate {{SelfDemonstrating/Deadpool}}, due to him being a psychopathic human supremacist rather than the CrazyAwesome ChaoticNeutral AntiHero character from the mainstream.
** Similarly, Ultimate Wolverine is also widely hated both fans of his mainstream counterpart and of the Ultimate Universe for his creepy sexual acts and obsessions. See ValuesDissonance below for more details.
** Most fans had really bad reactions toward Ultimate {{SelfDemonstrating/Deadpool}}, due to him being a psychopathic human supremacist rather than the CrazyAwesome ChaoticNeutral AntiHero character from the mainstream.
** Similarly, Ultimate Wolverine is also widely hated both fans of his mainstream counterpart and of the Ultimate Universe for his creepy sexual acts and obsessions. See ValuesDissonance below for more details.
Changed line(s) 54 (click to see context) from:
** Red Skull holding a baby at gunpoint. Much like the example from Ultimatum, it's often used as evidence of Ultimate Marvel's tendency to indulge in shock value.
to:
** Red Skull holding a baby at gunpoint. Much like the example from Ultimatum, ''Ultimatum'', it's often used as evidence of Ultimate Marvel's tendency to indulge in shock value.
Changed line(s) 58 (click to see context) from:
** Hulk tearing Wolverine in half
to:
** Hulk tearing Wolverine in halfhalf.
Changed line(s) 60,62 (click to see context) from:
** Ultimate Captain America is the biggest sticking point and for a lot remains the embodiment of what is wrong with Ultimate Marvel. Millar intended it as a corrective for the manner in which Captain America seems an unblemished voice of {{Eagleland}} Type I but thanks to DatedHistory, when a new generation of comics fans became aware of the original context of his creation, it's come to be seen as a tone-deaf ShallowParody. Moreover, Creator/EdBrubaker's ''very'' well-received run on the mainstream Captain America titles, with its popular ''Winter Soldier'' storyline and more nuanced characterization, ended up selling better and reviving him for a modern audience, with the 616 version of the character being the main inspiration for the MCU take rather than the Ultimate version.
** The portrayal of the X-Men and especially Magneto was likewise heavily disliked, since they were all made into jerks with very few likable characteristics and this ended up making their role as the "good" mutants [[DesignatedHero problematic]], which was {{Lampshaded}} in the body-swap crossover issue with Spider-Man where Peter Parker insists that the reason people dislike the X-Men isn't because they are mutants but because they are jerks. Specifically, Magneto being made into a genocidal psychopath with none of the [[NobleDemon redeeming]] [[WellIntentionedExtremist elements]] the mainstream version had was seen as a waste of a good villain, and which likewise made Professor X's mercy and willingness to try and redeem him seem especially pointless and suicidal. The twist at the end of ''Ultimatum'', [[spoiler:that the mutants are not a product of evolution, is likewise seen as a cheapening of their entire mythos]].
* TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodCharacter: Marh-Vell. A Kree soldier who defects to try and save Earth from Gah-Lak-Tus because he thinks we're interesting, showing himself to be smart, snarky (well, he was created by Warren Ellis), but openly good and decent, a rarity in the Ultimate Universe. But he was not incorporated as a regular character in any of the ongoing series, and just had roles in some crossover events. He was eventually killed in the "Hunger" miniseries.
** The portrayal of the X-Men and especially Magneto was likewise heavily disliked, since they were all made into jerks with very few likable characteristics and this ended up making their role as the "good" mutants [[DesignatedHero problematic]], which was {{Lampshaded}} in the body-swap crossover issue with Spider-Man where Peter Parker insists that the reason people dislike the X-Men isn't because they are mutants but because they are jerks. Specifically, Magneto being made into a genocidal psychopath with none of the [[NobleDemon redeeming]] [[WellIntentionedExtremist elements]] the mainstream version had was seen as a waste of a good villain, and which likewise made Professor X's mercy and willingness to try and redeem him seem especially pointless and suicidal. The twist at the end of ''Ultimatum'', [[spoiler:that the mutants are not a product of evolution, is likewise seen as a cheapening of their entire mythos]].
* TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodCharacter: Marh-Vell. A Kree soldier who defects to try and save Earth from Gah-Lak-Tus because he thinks we're interesting, showing himself to be smart, snarky (well, he was created by Warren Ellis), but openly good and decent, a rarity in the Ultimate Universe. But he was not incorporated as a regular character in any of the ongoing series, and just had roles in some crossover events. He was eventually killed in the "Hunger" miniseries.
to:
** Ultimate Captain America is the biggest sticking point and for a lot many, remains the embodiment of what everything that is wrong with Ultimate Marvel. Millar intended it as a corrective for the manner in which Captain America seems an unblemished voice of {{Eagleland}} Type I but thanks to DatedHistory, when a new generation of comics fans became aware of the original context of his creation, it's come to be seen as a tone-deaf ShallowParody. Moreover, Creator/EdBrubaker's ''very'' well-received run on the mainstream Captain America titles, with its popular ''Winter Soldier'' storyline and more nuanced characterization, ended up selling better and reviving him for a modern audience, with the 616 version of the character being the main inspiration for the MCU take rather than the Ultimate version.
** The portrayal of the X-Men and especially Magneto was likewise heavily disliked, since they were all made into jerks with very few likable characteristics and this ended up making their role as the "good" mutants [[DesignatedHero problematic]], which was {{Lampshaded}} in the body-swap crossover issue with Spider-Man where Peter Parker insists that the reason people dislike the X-Men isn't because they are mutants but because they are jerks. Specifically, Magneto being made into a genocidal psychopath with none of the [[NobleDemon redeeming]] [[WellIntentionedExtremist elements]] the mainstream version had was seen as a waste of a good villain, and which likewise made Professor X's mercy and willingness to try and redeem him seem especially pointless and suicidal. The twist at the end of ''Ultimatum'', [[spoiler:that the mutants are not a product ofevolution, evolution]], is likewise seen as a cheapening of their entire mythos]].
mythos.
* TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodCharacter:Marh-Vell.Ultimate ComicBook/CaptainMarVell. A Kree soldier who defects to try and save Earth from Gah-Lak-Tus because he thinks we're interesting, showing himself to be smart, snarky (well, he was created by Warren Ellis), but openly good and decent, a rarity in the Ultimate Universe. But he was not incorporated as a regular character in any of the ongoing series, and just had roles in some crossover events. He was eventually killed in the "Hunger" miniseries.
** The portrayal of the X-Men and especially Magneto was likewise heavily disliked, since they were all made into jerks with very few likable characteristics and this ended up making their role as the "good" mutants [[DesignatedHero problematic]], which was {{Lampshaded}} in the body-swap crossover issue with Spider-Man where Peter Parker insists that the reason people dislike the X-Men isn't because they are mutants but because they are jerks. Specifically, Magneto being made into a genocidal psychopath with none of the [[NobleDemon redeeming]] [[WellIntentionedExtremist elements]] the mainstream version had was seen as a waste of a good villain, and which likewise made Professor X's mercy and willingness to try and redeem him seem especially pointless and suicidal. The twist at the end of ''Ultimatum'', [[spoiler:that the mutants are not a product of
* TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodCharacter:
Changed line(s) 64 (click to see context) from:
** Carol Danvers as head of S.H.I.E.L.D., given she was an air-force officer not used to running an intelligence agency, but she's far less morally compromised than Nick Fury. And then the writers proceeded to do absolutely nothing with that idea, and she was eventually booted out in favor of having Fury back in charge. She also never became Ms or Captain Marvel.
to:
** Carol Danvers ComicBook/CarolDanvers as head of S.H.I.E.L.D., given she was an air-force officer not used to running an intelligence agency, but she's far less morally compromised than Nick Fury. And then the writers proceeded to do absolutely nothing with that idea, and she was eventually booted out in favor of having Fury back in charge. She also never became Ms or Captain Marvel.a superhero like her mainline comics counterpart.
Changed line(s) 66 (click to see context) from:
** Ultimate Jessica Drew is the female clone of Peter Parker, a heterosexual man, and has his exact mind, memories, and feelings. Parker likes women, and so does she. As discussed by [[https://superiorspidertalk.com/spidiversity-the-strange-case-of-ultimate-jessica-drew/ Spider Talk]], this would open the door to an interesting exploration of gender topics, but it was never used beyond some limited scenes. Of course, she was a secondary character, and to treat the topic with the required depth she should have had a comic book for her own.
to:
** Ultimate Jessica Drew is the female clone of Peter Parker, a heterosexual man, and has his exact mind, memories, and feelings. Parker Peter likes women, and so does she. As discussed by [[https://superiorspidertalk.com/spidiversity-the-strange-case-of-ultimate-jessica-drew/ Spider Talk]], this would open the door to an interesting exploration of gender topics, but it was never used beyond some limited scenes. Of course, she was a secondary character, and to treat the topic with the required depth she should have had a comic book for her own.
Changed line(s) 74 (click to see context) from:
** The biggest one is the normalization of incest in ''Ultimates 3'' where the conversation between Janet and Steve Rogers about Wanda and Pietro as written is supposed to communicate Janet's acceptance and sympathy for the siblings' relationship as a modern idea of acceptance while Steve's horror indicates his old-fashioned nature. The problem is that the incest taboo remains in place for most societies across the world even in the 21st century, and it ends up communicating the writer's lack of knowledge of 21st Century society as much as Steve Rogers' era.
to:
** The biggest one is the normalization of incest in ''Ultimates 3'' where the conversation between Janet and Steve Rogers about Wanda and Pietro as written is supposed to communicate Janet's acceptance and sympathy for the siblings' relationship as a modern idea of acceptance while Steve's horror indicates his old-fashioned nature. The problem is that the incest taboo remains in place for most societies across the world even in the 21st century, and it ends up communicating making the writer's lack of knowledge of 21st Century society as much as Steve Rogers' era.writer look more than a bit creepy at best.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 3 (click to see context) from:
** In its early days, the ''Ultimate'' titles were a big success and overshadowed the original titles. This was especially the case with the Ultimates, which had a far greater success than the relatively obscure Avengers (remember that there was no MCU at this point yet). The process was eventually reverted in later years. The premise of the Ultimates being heavily backed by the US government through SHIELD carried over to the MCU's Avengers, which is how they are cemented in the popular mind today.
to:
** In its early days, the ''Ultimate'' titles were a big success and overshadowed the original titles. This was especially the case with the Ultimates, which had a far greater success than the relatively obscure Avengers (remember that there was no MCU at this point yet). The process was eventually reverted in later years. The premise of the Ultimates being heavily backed by the US government through SHIELD carried over to the origins of the MCU's Avengers, which is how they are cemented in the popular mind today.today. The MCU Avengers do go independent after ''Captain America: The Winter Soldier'', but by that point the connection was already made.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
More detail
Changed line(s) 62 (click to see context) from:
* TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodCharacter: Marh-Vell. A Kree soldier who defects to try and save Earth from Gah-Lak-Tus because he thinks we're interesting, showing himself to be smart, snarky (well, he was created by Warren Ellis), but openly good and decent, a rarity in the Ultimate Universe. So what happens? He disappears for years at a time, then finally returns in ''Hunger'' to get killed. Yay?
to:
* TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodCharacter: Marh-Vell. A Kree soldier who defects to try and save Earth from Gah-Lak-Tus because he thinks we're interesting, showing himself to be smart, snarky (well, he was created by Warren Ellis), but openly good and decent, a rarity in the Ultimate Universe. So what happens? But he was not incorporated as a regular character in any of the ongoing series, and just had roles in some crossover events. He disappears for years at a time, then finally returns was eventually killed in ''Hunger'' to get killed. Yay?the "Hunger" miniseries.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Not an example. It has to be an underused good character, not a character that they could have made better. Any character, anywhere, could have been made better
Changed line(s) 62,64 (click to see context) from:
* TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodCharacter:
** Marh-Vell. A Kree soldier who defects to try and save Earth from Gah-Lak-Tus because he thinks we're interesting, showing himself to be smart, snarky (well, he was created by Warren Ellis), but openly good and decent, a rarity in the Ultimate Universe. So what happens? He disappears for years at a time, then finally returns in ''Hunger'' to get killed. Yay?
** T'Challa. What's the Ultimate universe's reinvention of the King of Wakanda, one of the foremost minds of the setting? He's a victim of Weapon X who can't even speak thanks to what's been done to him. And that's about it for him.
** Marh-Vell. A Kree soldier who defects to try and save Earth from Gah-Lak-Tus because he thinks we're interesting, showing himself to be smart, snarky (well, he was created by Warren Ellis), but openly good and decent, a rarity in the Ultimate Universe. So what happens? He disappears for years at a time, then finally returns in ''Hunger'' to get killed. Yay?
** T'Challa. What's the Ultimate universe's reinvention of the King of Wakanda, one of the foremost minds of the setting? He's a victim of Weapon X who can't even speak thanks to what's been done to him. And that's about it for him.
to:
* TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodCharacter:
**TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodCharacter: Marh-Vell. A Kree soldier who defects to try and save Earth from Gah-Lak-Tus because he thinks we're interesting, showing himself to be smart, snarky (well, he was created by Warren Ellis), but openly good and decent, a rarity in the Ultimate Universe. So what happens? He disappears for years at a time, then finally returns in ''Hunger'' to get killed. Yay?
** T'Challa. What's the Ultimate universe's reinvention of the King of Wakanda, one of the foremost minds of the setting? He's a victim of Weapon X who can't even speak thanks to what's been done to him. And that's about it for him.Yay?
**
** T'Challa. What's the Ultimate universe's reinvention of the King of Wakanda, one of the foremost minds of the setting? He's a victim of Weapon X who can't even speak thanks to what's been done to him. And that's about it for him.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
* TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodCharacter:
** Marh-Vell. A Kree soldier who defects to try and save Earth from Gah-Lak-Tus because he thinks we're interesting, showing himself to be smart, snarky (well, he was created by Warren Ellis), but openly good and decent, a rarity in the Ultimate Universe. So what happens? He disappears for years at a time, then finally returns in ''Hunger'' to get killed. Yay?
** T'Challa. What's the Ultimate universe's reinvention of the King of Wakanda, one of the foremost minds of the setting? He's a victim of Weapon X who can't even speak thanks to what's been done to him. And that's about it for him.
** Marh-Vell. A Kree soldier who defects to try and save Earth from Gah-Lak-Tus because he thinks we're interesting, showing himself to be smart, snarky (well, he was created by Warren Ellis), but openly good and decent, a rarity in the Ultimate Universe. So what happens? He disappears for years at a time, then finally returns in ''Hunger'' to get killed. Yay?
** T'Challa. What's the Ultimate universe's reinvention of the King of Wakanda, one of the foremost minds of the setting? He's a victim of Weapon X who can't even speak thanks to what's been done to him. And that's about it for him.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Deleted line(s) 44 (click to see context) :
** In sharp contrast to his earth-616 counterpart, Ultimate Wolverine widely hated by fans of the Ultimate Universe.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 43 (click to see context) from:
* TheScrappy: Most fans had really bad reactions toward Ultimate {{SelfDemonstrating/Deadpool}}, due to him being a psychopathic human supremacist rather than the CrazyAwesome ChaoticNeutral AntiHero character from the mainstream.
to:
* TheScrappy: TheScrappy:
** In sharp contrast to his earth-616 counterpart, Ultimate Wolverine widely hated by fans of the Ultimate Universe.
** Most fans had really bad reactions toward Ultimate {{SelfDemonstrating/Deadpool}}, due to him being a psychopathic human supremacist rather than the CrazyAwesome ChaoticNeutral AntiHero character from themainstream.mainstream.
** Similarly, Ultimate Wolverine is also widely hated both fans of his mainstream counterpart and of the Ultimate Universe for his creepy sexual acts and obsessions. See ValuesDissonance below for more details.
** In sharp contrast to his earth-616 counterpart, Ultimate Wolverine widely hated by fans of the Ultimate Universe.
** Most fans had really bad reactions toward Ultimate {{SelfDemonstrating/Deadpool}}, due to him being a psychopathic human supremacist rather than the CrazyAwesome ChaoticNeutral AntiHero character from the
** Similarly, Ultimate Wolverine is also widely hated both fans of his mainstream counterpart and of the Ultimate Universe for his creepy sexual acts and obsessions. See ValuesDissonance below for more details.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
** Probably nobody expected the cops in ''ComicBook/AllNewUltimates'' to turn out to be the Ultimate take on Terror Inc. (or that such a team ever existed).
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
See discussion
Deleted line(s) 43 (click to see context) :
** Ultimates was intended to be a movie-friendly SettingUpdate, i.e. doing a ContinuityReboot with streamlined stories as a proving ground for potential movie adaptations with a special focus on properties (The Ultimates, Nick Fury) whose rights Marvel hadn't yet sold to other companies. To that end, it went with [[MovieSuperheroesWearBlack darker costumes]], [[DoingInTheWizard a more grounded portrayal]] of classic gimmicks, and toning down the supernatural and cosmic elements to a manageable length, as well as CanonWelding different parts of the universe together. When the actual movie adaptations came around, it managed to do the SettingUpdate by bringing and keeping all the Silver Age stuff (i.e. magic, supernatural, Infinity Stones, talking animals, StupidJetpackHitler, CrystalSpiresAndTogas), and today much of what seemed modern and trailblazing when the comic came out, strikes a millennial audience as [[NinetiesAntiHero dated '90s]] and [[TurnOfTheMillennium early 2000s]] kitsch, buoyed by the fact that the movies most faithful to Ultimate inspirations -- ''Film/TheAmazingSpiderManSeries'' and ''Film/FantasticFour2015'' were seen as major failures in comparison to the largely 616-centric MCU.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Thor was in Phase 1 you know. And as far as 2016 goes, you have the Doctor Strange movie who cares about Agents of SHIELD. All the TV stuff is Expanded Universe only. And no special effects are still highly expensive. They haven't gotten cheaper for big projects by any means. So quit trying to dodge the fact that Ultimate Marvel has gone out of style. You aren't moderator here...
Changed line(s) 43 (click to see context) from:
** Ultimates was intended to be a movie-friendly SettingUpdate, i.e. doing a ContinuityReboot with streamlined stories as a proving ground for potential movie adaptations with a special focus on properties (The Ultimates, Nick Fury) whose rights Marvel hadn't yet sold to other companies. To that end, it went with [[MovieSuperheroesWearBlack darker costumes]], [[DoingInTheWizard a more grounded portrayal]] of classic gimmicks, and toning down the supernatural and cosmic elements to a manageable length, as well as CanonWelding different parts of the universe together. Two decades later, special effects in films are highly cheaper and the superhero genre is more familiar to mainstream audiences beyond the comic book niche, allowing filmmakers to gradually embrace the FantasyKitchenSink of the comic book superhero genre. The dark and grounded tone is still kept by projects with a smaller budget, such as the Netflix TV series.
to:
** Ultimates was intended to be a movie-friendly SettingUpdate, i.e. doing a ContinuityReboot with streamlined stories as a proving ground for potential movie adaptations with a special focus on properties (The Ultimates, Nick Fury) whose rights Marvel hadn't yet sold to other companies. To that end, it went with [[MovieSuperheroesWearBlack darker costumes]], [[DoingInTheWizard a more grounded portrayal]] of classic gimmicks, and toning down the supernatural and cosmic elements to a manageable length, as well as CanonWelding different parts of the universe together. Two decades later, special effects in films are highly cheaper When the actual movie adaptations came around, it managed to do the SettingUpdate by bringing and keeping all the superhero genre is more familiar to mainstream audiences beyond Silver Age stuff (i.e. magic, supernatural, Infinity Stones, talking animals, StupidJetpackHitler, CrystalSpiresAndTogas), and today much of what seemed modern and trailblazing when the comic book niche, allowing filmmakers to gradually embrace came out, strikes a millennial audience as [[NinetiesAntiHero dated '90s]] and [[TurnOfTheMillennium early 2000s]] kitsch, buoyed by the FantasyKitchenSink of fact that the comic book superhero genre. The dark movies most faithful to Ultimate inspirations -- ''Film/TheAmazingSpiderManSeries'' and grounded tone is still kept by projects with a smaller budget, such ''Film/FantasticFour2015'' were seen as major failures in comparison to the Netflix TV series. largely 616-centric MCU.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
The MCU was not a Fantasy Kitchen Sink since day one, that was a slow process. Remember that the first explicitly supernatural being in the MCU was Ghost Rider in 2016, just 3 years ago
Changed line(s) 43 (click to see context) from:
** Ultimates was intended to be a movie-friendly SettingUpdate, i.e. doing a ContinuityReboot with streamlined stories as a proving ground for potential movie adaptations with a special focus on properties (The Ultimates, Nick Fury) whose rights Marvel hadn't yet sold to other companies. To that end, it went with [[MovieSuperheroesWearBlack darker costumes]], [[DoingInTheWizard a more grounded portrayal]] of classic gimmicks, and toning down the supernatural and cosmic elements to a manageable length, as well as CanonWelding different parts of the universe together. When the actual movie adaptations came around, it managed to do the SettingUpdate by bringing and keeping all the Silver Age stuff (i.e. magic, supernatural, Infinity Stones, talking animals, StupidJetpackHitler, CrystalSpiresAndTogas), and today much of what seemed modern and trailblazing when the comic came out, strikes a millennial audience as [[NinetiesAntiHero dated '90s]] and [[TurnOfTheMillennium early 2000s]] kitsch, buoyed by the fact that the movies most faithful to Ultimate inspirations -- ''Film/TheAmazingSpiderManSeries'' and ''Film/FantasticFour2015'' were seen as major failures in comparison to the largely 616-centric MCU.
to:
** Ultimates was intended to be a movie-friendly SettingUpdate, i.e. doing a ContinuityReboot with streamlined stories as a proving ground for potential movie adaptations with a special focus on properties (The Ultimates, Nick Fury) whose rights Marvel hadn't yet sold to other companies. To that end, it went with [[MovieSuperheroesWearBlack darker costumes]], [[DoingInTheWizard a more grounded portrayal]] of classic gimmicks, and toning down the supernatural and cosmic elements to a manageable length, as well as CanonWelding different parts of the universe together. When Two decades later, special effects in films are highly cheaper and the actual movie adaptations came around, it managed superhero genre is more familiar to do the SettingUpdate by bringing and keeping all the Silver Age stuff (i.e. magic, supernatural, Infinity Stones, talking animals, StupidJetpackHitler, CrystalSpiresAndTogas), and today much of what seemed modern and trailblazing when mainstream audiences beyond the comic came out, strikes a millennial audience as [[NinetiesAntiHero dated '90s]] book niche, allowing filmmakers to gradually embrace the FantasyKitchenSink of the comic book superhero genre. The dark and [[TurnOfTheMillennium early 2000s]] kitsch, buoyed grounded tone is still kept by projects with a smaller budget, such as the fact that the movies most faithful to Ultimate inspirations -- ''Film/TheAmazingSpiderManSeries'' and ''Film/FantasticFour2015'' were seen as major failures in comparison to the largely 616-centric MCU.Netflix TV series.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 29 (click to see context) from:
** When the Ultimate Universe was first started ,there were some rumblings and rumors among fans that Marvel was going to use it to reboot/replace the mainstream universe. Years later, this ended up basically happening [[{{ComicBook/New52}} over at DC]].
to:
** When the Ultimate Universe was first started ,there started,there were some rumblings and rumors among fans that Marvel was going to use it to reboot/replace the mainstream universe. Years later, this ended up basically happening [[{{ComicBook/New52}} over at DC]].
Changed line(s) 72 (click to see context) from:
** Ultimate Wolverine's creepy seducing of teenage and adolescent girls was intended to paint him as a "bad boy" and ladies' man, but especially after the [=#MeToo=] and Time's Up movements, he comes across as a creepy sexual predator and pedophile. His seduction and fixation on Jean Grey, who at the very least was of legal age, was bad enough but he later [[spoiler:frags Cyclops to MurderTheHypoteneuse and then lies about doing so to Jean]]. His behavior when he is trapped in Peter's body (a situation caused by Jean Grey because he tried to creep on her again) has him [[spoiler:trying to take advantage of Peter's relationship with MJ to apparently do something lewd with her]], making him come across as an attempted rapist.
to:
** Ultimate Wolverine's creepy seducing of teenage and adolescent girls was intended to paint him as a "bad boy" and ladies' man, but especially after the [=#MeToo=] and Time's Up movements, he comes across as a creepy sexual predator and pedophile. His seduction and fixation on Jean Grey, who at the very least was of legal age, was bad enough but he later [[spoiler:frags Cyclops to MurderTheHypoteneuse MurderTheHypotenuse and then lies about doing so to Jean]]. His behavior when he is trapped in Peter's body (a situation caused by Jean Grey because he tried to creep on her again) has him [[spoiler:trying to take advantage of Peter's relationship with MJ to apparently do something lewd with her]], making him come across as an attempted rapist.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
see discussion
Changed line(s) 29 (click to see context) from:
** When the Ultimate Universe was first started ,there were some rumblings and rumors among fans that Marvel was going to use it to reboot/replace the mainstream universe. Years later, this ended up basically happening [[{{ComicBook/New52}} over at DC]]. Even more amusing is that this actually '''did''' happen to some extent via ''ComicBook/SecretWars2015'', where the setting merged with the original Marvel line (and a few others) to create a new universe, albeit very little of the Ultimate universe actually carried over to 616, which still remains intact.
to:
** When the Ultimate Universe was first started ,there were some rumblings and rumors among fans that Marvel was going to use it to reboot/replace the mainstream universe. Years later, this ended up basically happening [[{{ComicBook/New52}} over at DC]]. Even more amusing is that this actually '''did''' happen to some extent via ''ComicBook/SecretWars2015'', where the setting merged with the original Marvel line (and a few others) to create a new universe, albeit very little of the Ultimate universe actually carried over to 616, which still remains intact.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
** Ultimate Captain America's suits are much more "tactical" with padded armor in contrast to classic Cap who still essentially wears mostly tights. As with Hawkeye, the MCU took heavy inspiration from this for most of movie Cap's suits.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 24 (click to see context) from:
** Miles Morales is perhaps the most famous example in the Ultimate Universe, and one of the few characters to migrate over to the 616 universe after the events of ''ComicBook/SecretWars2015''. While still a fairly recent creation, he already has a prominent presence in pop culture, with [[WesternAnimation/SpiderManIntoTheSpiderVerse a central role in an animated film]] and being referenced in the MCU, several appearances in cartoons, video games (mainly ''VideoGame/SpiderMan2018''), a young adult novel, and other merchandise, establishing himself as a new yet integral part of the overall Spider-Man mythos.
to:
** Miles Morales ComicBook/MilesMorales is perhaps the most famous example in the Ultimate Universe, and one of the few characters to migrate over to the 616 universe after the events of ''ComicBook/SecretWars2015''. While still a fairly recent creation, he already has a prominent presence in pop culture, with [[WesternAnimation/SpiderManIntoTheSpiderVerse a central role in an animated film]] and being referenced in the MCU, several appearances in cartoons, video games (mainly ''VideoGame/SpiderMan2018''), [[VideoGame/SpiderManPS4 the 2018 PS4 game]]), a young adult novel, and other merchandise, establishing himself as a new yet integral part of the overall Spider-Man mythos.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 22 (click to see context) from:
** The ''ComicBook/MarvelZombies'' were created in Ultimate Fantastic Four. They were so sucessful that they got their own miniseries (but as they were from an alternate universe to the Ultimate universe, they are not considered part of Ultimate Marvel imprint, regardless of their editorial origin).
to:
** The ''ComicBook/MarvelZombies'' were created in Ultimate Fantastic Four. They were so sucessful successful that they got their own miniseries (but as they were from an alternate universe to the Ultimate universe, they are not considered part of Ultimate Marvel imprint, regardless of their editorial origin).
Changed line(s) 24 (click to see context) from:
** Miles Morales is perhaps the most famous example in the Ultimate Universe, and one of the few characters to migrate over to the 616 universe after the events of ''ComicBook/SecretWars2015''. While still fairly recent, he already has a prominent presence in pop culture, with an animated film, several appearances in cartoons, video games, and other merchandise, and a young adult novel, establishing himself as a new yet integral part of the overall Spider-Man mythos.
to:
** Miles Morales is perhaps the most famous example in the Ultimate Universe, and one of the few characters to migrate over to the 616 universe after the events of ''ComicBook/SecretWars2015''. While still a fairly recent, recent creation, he already has a prominent presence in pop culture, with [[WesternAnimation/SpiderManIntoTheSpiderVerse a central role in an animated film, film]] and being referenced in the MCU, several appearances in cartoons, video games, games (mainly ''VideoGame/SpiderMan2018''), a young adult novel, and other merchandise, and a young adult novel, establishing himself as a new yet integral part of the overall Spider-Man mythos.
Changed line(s) 27,28 (click to see context) from:
* HilariousInHindsight
** When the Ultimate Universe was first started there were some rumblings and rumors amongst fans that Marvel was going to use it to reboot/replace the mainstream universe. Years later this ended up basically happening [[{{ComicBook/New52}} over at DC]]. Even more amusing is that this actually '''is''' happening to some extent via ''ComicBook/SecretWars2015'', where the setting is merging with the original Marvel line (and a few others) to create a new universe, albeit very little of Ultimate actually carried over to 616, which still remains intact.
** When the Ultimate Universe was first started there were some rumblings and rumors amongst fans that Marvel was going to use it to reboot/replace the mainstream universe. Years later this ended up basically happening [[{{ComicBook/New52}} over at DC]]. Even more amusing is that this actually '''is''' happening to some extent via ''ComicBook/SecretWars2015'', where the setting is merging with the original Marvel line (and a few others) to create a new universe, albeit very little of Ultimate actually carried over to 616, which still remains intact.
to:
* HilariousInHindsight
HilariousInHindsight:
** When the Ultimate Universe was first startedthere ,there were some rumblings and rumors amongst among fans that Marvel was going to use it to reboot/replace the mainstream universe. Years later later, this ended up basically happening [[{{ComicBook/New52}} over at DC]]. Even more amusing is that this actually '''is''' happening '''did''' happen to some extent via ''ComicBook/SecretWars2015'', where the setting is merging merged with the original Marvel line (and a few others) to create a new universe, albeit very little of the Ultimate universe actually carried over to 616, which still remains intact.
** When the Ultimate Universe was first started
Changed line(s) 33 (click to see context) from:
** Reed Richard's FaceHeelTurn in "Ultimate Enemy", and his explanation for his motives in particular at the end of the trilogy, comes across less as a emotionally fragile genius having a breakdown as much as him throwing a tantrum.
to:
** Reed Richard's FaceHeelTurn in "Ultimate Enemy", and his explanation for his motives in particular at the end of the trilogy, comes across less as a an emotionally fragile genius having a breakdown as much as him throwing a tantrum.
Changed line(s) 36 (click to see context) from:
* SavedByTheFans: Marvel cancelled the Ultimate Marvel in 2015, during the ''Secret Wars'' event. Some fans did not like this, and wanted it to come back, so [[https://www.cbr.com/ultimate-universes-return-bendis-explains/ Bendis brought it back]] in ''Spider-Men II''.
to:
* SavedByTheFans: Marvel cancelled the Ultimate Marvel line in 2015, during the ''Secret Wars'' event. Some fans did not like this, and wanted it to come back, so [[https://www.cbr.com/ultimate-universes-return-bendis-explains/ Bendis brought it back]] in ''Spider-Men II''.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 61 (click to see context) from:
** Carol Danvers as head of S.H.I.E.L.D., given she was an air-force officer not used to running an intelligence agency, but she's far less morally compromised than Nick Fury. And then the writers proceeded to do absolutely nothing with that idea, and she was eventually booted out in favour of having Fury back in charge. She also never became Ms or Captain Marvel.
to:
** Carol Danvers as head of S.H.I.E.L.D., given she was an air-force officer not used to running an intelligence agency, but she's far less morally compromised than Nick Fury. And then the writers proceeded to do absolutely nothing with that idea, and she was eventually booted out in favour favor of having Fury back in charge. She also never became Ms or Captain Marvel.
Changed line(s) 63 (click to see context) from:
** Ultimate Jessica Drew is the female clone of Peter Parker, an heterosexual man, and has his exact mind, memories and feelings. Parker likes women, and so does she. As discussed by [[https://superiorspidertalk.com/spidiversity-the-strange-case-of-ultimate-jessica-drew/ Spider Talk]], this would open the door to an interesting exploration of gender topics, but it was never used beyond some limited scenes. Of course, she was a secondary character, and to treat the topic with the required depth she should have had a comic book for her own.
to:
** Ultimate Jessica Drew is the female clone of Peter Parker, an a heterosexual man, and has his exact mind, memories memories, and feelings. Parker likes women, and so does she. As discussed by [[https://superiorspidertalk.com/spidiversity-the-strange-case-of-ultimate-jessica-drew/ Spider Talk]], this would open the door to an interesting exploration of gender topics, but it was never used beyond some limited scenes. Of course, she was a secondary character, and to treat the topic with the required depth she should have had a comic book for her own.
Changed line(s) 68 (click to see context) from:
** The Ultimate Galactus Trilogy featured Ultimate ComicBook/MistyKnight, a character who had not been used by Marvel since the 1970s. After it she was broght back in the mainstream Marvel universe as well.
to:
** The Ultimate Galactus Trilogy featured Ultimate ComicBook/MistyKnight, a character who had not been used by Marvel since the 1970s. After it this appearance, she was broght brought back in into the mainstream Marvel universe as well.
Changed line(s) 70,72 (click to see context) from:
** The biggest one is the normalization of incest in ''Ultimates 3'' where the conversation between Janet and Steve Rogers about Wanda and Pietro as written is supposed to communicate Janet's acceptance and sympathy for the siblings relationship as a modern idea of acceptance while Steve's horror indicates his old-fashioned nature. The problem is that the incest taboo remains in place for most societies across the world even in the 21st century, and it ends up communicating the writer's lack of knowledge of 21st Century society as much as Steve Rogers' era.
** Ultimate Wolverine's creepy seducing of teenage and adolescent girls was intended to paint him as a "bad boy" and ladies' man, but especially after Me Too and Times Up, he comes across as a creepy sexual predator and pedophile. His seduction and fixation on Jean Grey, who at the very least was of legal age, was bad enough but he later [[spoiler:frags Cyclops to MurderTheHypoteneuse and then lies about doing so to Jean]]. His behavior when he is trapped in Peter's body (a situation caused by Jean Grey because he tried to creep on her again) has him [[spoiler:trying to take advantage of Peter's relationship with MJ to apparently do something lewd with her]], making him come across as an attempted rapist.
** This also applies to Tony Stark who openly seduces and sleeps with his interns and co-workers and where Wolverine at least gets some pushback, this is glorified as Ultimate Tony's usual playboy shtick, when today that kind of stunt would be seen as red flags and unbecoming of a supposed superhero.
** Ultimate Wolverine's creepy seducing of teenage and adolescent girls was intended to paint him as a "bad boy" and ladies' man, but especially after Me Too and Times Up, he comes across as a creepy sexual predator and pedophile. His seduction and fixation on Jean Grey, who at the very least was of legal age, was bad enough but he later [[spoiler:frags Cyclops to MurderTheHypoteneuse and then lies about doing so to Jean]]. His behavior when he is trapped in Peter's body (a situation caused by Jean Grey because he tried to creep on her again) has him [[spoiler:trying to take advantage of Peter's relationship with MJ to apparently do something lewd with her]], making him come across as an attempted rapist.
** This also applies to Tony Stark who openly seduces and sleeps with his interns and co-workers and where Wolverine at least gets some pushback, this is glorified as Ultimate Tony's usual playboy shtick, when today that kind of stunt would be seen as red flags and unbecoming of a supposed superhero.
to:
** The biggest one is the normalization of incest in ''Ultimates 3'' where the conversation between Janet and Steve Rogers about Wanda and Pietro as written is supposed to communicate Janet's acceptance and sympathy for the siblings siblings' relationship as a modern idea of acceptance while Steve's horror indicates his old-fashioned nature. The problem is that the incest taboo remains in place for most societies across the world even in the 21st century, and it ends up communicating the writer's lack of knowledge of 21st Century society as much as Steve Rogers' era.
** Ultimate Wolverine's creepy seducing of teenage and adolescent girls was intended to paint him as a "bad boy" and ladies' man, but especially afterMe Too the [=#MeToo=] and Times Up, Time's Up movements, he comes across as a creepy sexual predator and pedophile. His seduction and fixation on Jean Grey, who at the very least was of legal age, was bad enough but he later [[spoiler:frags Cyclops to MurderTheHypoteneuse and then lies about doing so to Jean]]. His behavior when he is trapped in Peter's body (a situation caused by Jean Grey because he tried to creep on her again) has him [[spoiler:trying to take advantage of Peter's relationship with MJ to apparently do something lewd with her]], making him come across as an attempted rapist.
** This also applies to Tony Stark who openly seduces and sleeps with his interns and co-workers and where Wolverine at least gets some pushback, this is glorified as Ultimate Tony's usual playboyshtick, schtick, when today that kind of stunt would be seen as red flags and unbecoming of a supposed superhero.
** Ultimate Wolverine's creepy seducing of teenage and adolescent girls was intended to paint him as a "bad boy" and ladies' man, but especially after
** This also applies to Tony Stark who openly seduces and sleeps with his interns and co-workers and where Wolverine at least gets some pushback, this is glorified as Ultimate Tony's usual playboy
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 51 (click to see context) from:
** Hank Pym [[DomesticAbuse beating the Wasp and siccing a horde of ants on her]] is an infamous scene, and one often used as an example of the DarknessInducedAudienceApathy of the universe, and it's tendency to exaggerate the character flaws of its 616 counterparts.
to:
** Hank Pym [[DomesticAbuse beating the Wasp and siccing a horde of ants on her]] is an infamous scene, and one often used as an example of the DarknessInducedAudienceApathy of the universe, and it's its tendency to exaggerate the character flaws of its 616 counterparts.
Changed line(s) 57,59 (click to see context) from:
* TheyChangedItNowItSucks: Many fans had this attitude towards Ultimate Marvel changing the characters personality and origins, with some feeling that that it was change for the sake of change and not good storytelling:
** Ultimate Captain America is the biggest sticking point and for a lot remains the embodiment of what is wrong with Ultimate Marvel. Millar intended it as a corrective for the manner in which Captain America seems an unblemished voice of {{Eagleland}} type I but thanks to DatedHistory, when a new generation of comics fans became aware of the original context of his creation, it's now seen as a classic tone-deaf ShallowParody. Ed Brubaker's run on Captain America after Civil War with its popular Winter Soldier storyline and a more nuanced characterization ended up selling better and reviving him for a modern audience, and that version of the character ultimately inspired the MCU take rather than the Ultimate version.
** The portrayal of the X-Men and especially Magneto was likewise heavily disliked, since they were all made into jerks with very little likeable characteristics and this ended up making their role as the "good" mutants problematic, which was {{Lampshaded}} in the body-swap crossover issue with Spider-Man where Peter Parker insists that the reason people dislike the X-Men isn't because they are mutants but because they are jerks. Likewise, Magneto being made into a genocidal psychopath with none of the redeeming elements from Chris Claremont's revision, was seen as a waste of a good villain, and which likewise made Professor X's mercy and willingness to try and redeem him, seem especially pointless and suicidal. The twist at the end of ''Ultimatum'', [[spoiler:that the mutants are not a product of evolution, is likewise seen as a cheapening of their entire mythos]].
** Ultimate Captain America is the biggest sticking point and for a lot remains the embodiment of what is wrong with Ultimate Marvel. Millar intended it as a corrective for the manner in which Captain America seems an unblemished voice of {{Eagleland}} type I but thanks to DatedHistory, when a new generation of comics fans became aware of the original context of his creation, it's now seen as a classic tone-deaf ShallowParody. Ed Brubaker's run on Captain America after Civil War with its popular Winter Soldier storyline and a more nuanced characterization ended up selling better and reviving him for a modern audience, and that version of the character ultimately inspired the MCU take rather than the Ultimate version.
** The portrayal of the X-Men and especially Magneto was likewise heavily disliked, since they were all made into jerks with very little likeable characteristics and this ended up making their role as the "good" mutants problematic, which was {{Lampshaded}} in the body-swap crossover issue with Spider-Man where Peter Parker insists that the reason people dislike the X-Men isn't because they are mutants but because they are jerks. Likewise, Magneto being made into a genocidal psychopath with none of the redeeming elements from Chris Claremont's revision, was seen as a waste of a good villain, and which likewise made Professor X's mercy and willingness to try and redeem him, seem especially pointless and suicidal. The twist at the end of ''Ultimatum'', [[spoiler:that the mutants are not a product of evolution, is likewise seen as a cheapening of their entire mythos]].
to:
* TheyChangedItNowItSucks: Many fans had this attitude towards Ultimate Marvel changing the characters personality characters' personalities and origins, with some feeling that that it was change for the sake of change and not good storytelling:
origins.
** Ultimate Captain America is the biggest sticking point and for a lot remains the embodiment of what is wrong with Ultimate Marvel. Millar intended it as a corrective for the manner in which Captain America seems an unblemished voice of {{Eagleland}}type Type I but thanks to DatedHistory, when a new generation of comics fans became aware of the original context of his creation, it's now come to be seen as a classic tone-deaf ShallowParody. Ed Brubaker's Moreover, Creator/EdBrubaker's ''very'' well-received run on the mainstream Captain America after Civil War titles, with its popular Winter Soldier ''Winter Soldier'' storyline and a more nuanced characterization characterization, ended up selling better and reviving him for a modern audience, and that with the 616 version of the character ultimately inspired being the main inspiration for the MCU take rather than the Ultimate version.
** The portrayal of the X-Men and especially Magneto was likewise heavily disliked, since they were all made into jerks with verylittle likeable few likable characteristics and this ended up making their role as the "good" mutants problematic, [[DesignatedHero problematic]], which was {{Lampshaded}} in the body-swap crossover issue with Spider-Man where Peter Parker insists that the reason people dislike the X-Men isn't because they are mutants but because they are jerks. Likewise, Specifically, Magneto being made into a genocidal psychopath with none of the redeeming elements from Chris Claremont's revision, [[NobleDemon redeeming]] [[WellIntentionedExtremist elements]] the mainstream version had was seen as a waste of a good villain, and which likewise made Professor X's mercy and willingness to try and redeem him, him seem especially pointless and suicidal. The twist at the end of ''Ultimatum'', [[spoiler:that the mutants are not a product of evolution, is likewise seen as a cheapening of their entire mythos]].
** Ultimate Captain America is the biggest sticking point and for a lot remains the embodiment of what is wrong with Ultimate Marvel. Millar intended it as a corrective for the manner in which Captain America seems an unblemished voice of {{Eagleland}}
** The portrayal of the X-Men and especially Magneto was likewise heavily disliked, since they were all made into jerks with very
Changed line(s) 61 (click to see context) from:
** Carol Danvers as head of S.H.I.E.L.D., given she was an air-force officer not used to running an intelligence agency, but she's far less morally compromised than Nick Fury. And then the writers proceeded to do absolutely nothing with that idea, and she was eventually booted out in favour of having Fury back in charge. She also never became Ms Marvel.
to:
** Carol Danvers as head of S.H.I.E.L.D., given she was an air-force officer not used to running an intelligence agency, but she's far less morally compromised than Nick Fury. And then the writers proceeded to do absolutely nothing with that idea, and she was eventually booted out in favour of having Fury back in charge. She also never became Ms or Captain Marvel.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 4 (click to see context) from:
** Ultimate Nick Fury has completely overshadowed the original white version due to his deliberate ComicBookFantasyCasting as Creator/SamuelLJackson, which became reality when Jackson started playing the role in the MCU. He has been used in all adaptations of the character since then. In the main universe, there is a son of the original Nick Fury who also uses that name and who looks this way (so, for all purposes, it's like having Ultimate Nick Fury around).
to:
** Ultimate Nick Fury has completely overshadowed the original white version due to his deliberate ComicBookFantasyCasting as Creator/SamuelLJackson, which became reality when Jackson started playing the role in the MCU. He has been used in all adaptations of the character since then.then (for reference, the last Marvel adaptation with a white Nick Fury was ''WesternAnimation/XMenEvolution''). In the main universe, there is a son of the original Nick Fury who also uses that name and who looks this way (so, for all purposes, it's like having Ultimate Nick Fury around).
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 6 (click to see context) from:
** Hobbie Brown, the original Prowler, has long faded into obscurity. Ultimate Prowler is Aaron Davis, Miles Morales' uncle, and was eventually moved to the prime Earth as well. In either universe, Davis is THE Prowler nowadays. He also appears in Film/SpiderManHomecoming'' and ''WesternAnimation/SpiderManIntoTheSpiderVerse''.
to:
** Hobbie Brown, the original Prowler, has long faded into obscurity. Ultimate Prowler is Aaron Davis, Miles Morales' uncle, and was eventually moved to the prime Earth as well. In either universe, Davis is THE Prowler nowadays. He also appears in Film/SpiderManHomecoming'' ''Film/SpiderManHomecoming'' and ''WesternAnimation/SpiderManIntoTheSpiderVerse''.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
* OlderThanTheyThink: The Maker is a villain who is a KnightTemplar who works ForScience and is willing to establish a scientific utopia by any means needed, no matter how evil and destructive. Although the most successful and popular one, he was not the first character in the ComicBook/UltimateMarvel universe to fit this description: George Tarleton from ''ComicBook/UltimateVision'' was another contender.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
** ''ComicBook/UltimateIronMan'' ended up being so contradictory and just plain weird (Tony is revealed to basically be a BrainMonster in human form, for example) that subsequent stories retconned it into being nothing but a ShowWithinAShow.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 5 (click to see context) from:
** Ultimate Hawkeye's suit looks like sportsman gear instead of the classic purple suit with the Wolverine mask. It has also been used in the MCU, the ''WesternAnimation/AvengersAssemble'' TV series, and also incorporated into the main universe.
to:
** Ultimate Hawkeye's suit looks like sportsman gear instead of the classic purple suit with the Wolverine mask. It has also been Ever since it was used in the MCU, it has carried over to the ''WesternAnimation/AvengersAssemble'' TV series, series and also incorporated into finally the main universe.
