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** "The Popsicle War" stretched out so long that many readers expressed concern over the extreme length of the plotline, which dominated most of the year it ran. While Campbell would later claim the reactions to this and some of the other lengthy plots were not as harsh for readers that started the series later and thus experiences these in an ArchiveBinge, he seemed to take the hint that the pacing for active readers was significantly slower. Subsequent plots were much shorter, with larger story arcs broken into more manageable chunks.
** The much-hated "Minjung" arc was widely seen as this, with its sudden, jarring focus on some random girl on the other side of the world who indulges in navel-gazing for much of the arc. It was especially despised because it came in the middle of the intense "Popsicle War" arc with Campbell insisting that the arc was critical to understanding the main storyline. Years later he admitted he didn't actually know how "Minjung" related to the series.
* BaseBreakingCharacter: Aggie, Daphne, Helen, Lisa, Marshall and Stan have been these, for varying lengths of time and to different degrees, as is clear from debate on the comic's forum.
** The much-hated "Minjung" arc was widely seen as this, with its sudden, jarring focus on some random girl on the other side of the world who indulges in navel-gazing for much of the arc. It was especially despised because it came in the middle of the intense "Popsicle War" arc with Campbell insisting that the arc was critical to understanding the main storyline. Years later he admitted he didn't actually know how "Minjung" related to the series.
* BaseBreakingCharacter: Aggie, Daphne, Helen, Lisa, Marshall and Stan have been these, for varying lengths of time and to different degrees, as is clear from debate on the comic's forum.
to:
** "The Popsicle War" stretched out so long that many readers expressed concern over the extreme length of the plotline, which dominated most of the year it ran. While During the run of the series, the comic updated twice a week, a reasonable schedule for a webcomic of its time. But for far more complex plots where scenes would take necessitate being longer to show all the characters roles in the story, only two updates in a week could feel like murder and filler arcs the interrupted the already long storyline caused outrage. Campbell would later claim state that the reactions he'd get to this and some of the other lengthy plots at this time were not as harsh for more positive to readers that started who came to the series strip much later and thus experiences these in an simply did a quick ArchiveBinge, he where this storyline can be read in less than a day. However, Campbell seemed to take the hint that the pacing for feedback from his active readers was significantly slower.to heart. Subsequent plots were much shorter, with larger story arcs broken into more manageable chunks.
** The much-hated "Minjung" arc was widely seen as this, with its sudden, jarring focus on some random girl on the other side of the world who indulges in navel-gazing for much of the arc. It was especially despised because it came in the middle of the intense "Popsicle War" arc with Campbell insisting that the arc was critical to understanding the main storyline. Years later he admitted he didn't actually know how "Minjung" related to theseries.
series, though it didn't stop other readers over the years from finding meaning in it much later.
* BaseBreakingCharacter: Aggie, Daphne, Helen, Lisa, Marshall and Stan have been these, for varying lengths of time and to different degrees, asis was clear from debate regular discourse on the comic's forum.forums:
** The much-hated "Minjung" arc was widely seen as this, with its sudden, jarring focus on some random girl on the other side of the world who indulges in navel-gazing for much of the arc. It was especially despised because it came in the middle of the intense "Popsicle War" arc with Campbell insisting that the arc was critical to understanding the main storyline. Years later he admitted he didn't actually know how "Minjung" related to the
* BaseBreakingCharacter: Aggie, Daphne, Helen, Lisa, Marshall and Stan have been these, for varying lengths of time and to different degrees, as
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** Lisa: Entertaining and insightful GenkiGirl, or annoying, TotallyRadical-talking character? (Note: fan opinion, though once sharply divided over Lisa, has mostly shifted to the first view; she's now more of an EnsembleDarkhorse.)
to:
** Lisa: Entertaining and insightful GenkiGirl, or annoying, TotallyRadical-talking character? (Note: fan opinion, though once sharply divided over Lisa, has mostly In Lisa's case, however, the opinion of the fandom shifted to the first view; she's now towards her over time as she was given more depth in the later arcs of the series and she even became an EnsembleDarkhorse.)EnsembleDarkhouse, leading to her becoming one of the two protagonists of the sequel series.
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* SeasonalRot: There was and still is strong discourse about whether the series should have ended with ''The Popsicle War'' as originally planned and whether or not the stories were of the same quality after this point. The artist change alone caused intense fights, as the obvious visual change created a hard line between the "old" style and the "new" style of the strip (though whether that really exists beyond aesthetics is itself up for debate.)
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* ValuesDissonance: While asexuals certainly existed in the [=2000s=] when the comics originally ran, the strips overall hostility to characters who don't want to have sex and the implication that only people who are "damaged" are not interested in sex reads far more harshly nearly 20 years later with ace activism being far more prominent in the culture (specifically the LGBTQIA culture that ultimately formed the strip's main audience of the time.) T attempted to remedy this in ''Quiltbag'' with the inclusion of ace characters though the cancellation of the strip prevented this from being explored in-depth.
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Trope got deleted and moved, I took the existing example and tried to reconfigure to the closest remaining trope since it seems to still apply but its clearly played with.
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* EvilIsSexy: Karen and later Cyndi explicitly have their sexual attractiveness played up in the story and by the artists.
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* SexyVillainsChasteHeroes: While this isn't played perfectly straight, characters portrayed in more antagonistic roles tend to have their sex appeal played up while more heroic characters are presented more conservatively. Karen's makeover into a sex bomb by both Penny and Aggie leads to her explicitly becoming a villain, and once Cyndi takes center stage as a direct antagonist her sexuality in the story and the art increases dramatically. The first hint the reader also seems to get to Charisma's abusive side is her seductive personality and loose sexual mores. That said it's not played 100% straight. Penny doesn't change how she presents herself through the series even when she's no longer able to use her sex appeal to boost her personal profile and its even implied that part of Aggie's original negative perception of her is Aggie herself believing in this trope. Furthermore the most sexually liberated character in the story is Lisa, who wears baggy clothes and her sexuality is usually portrayed as her trying to see the best in people.
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** "The Popsicle War" stretched out so long that many readers expressed concern over the extreme length of the plotline, which dominated most of the year it ran. Subsequent plots have been much shorter, with larger story arcs broken into more manageable chunks.
** The much-hated "Minjung" arc was widely seen as this, with its sudden, jarring focus on some random girl on the other side of the world who indulges in navel-gazing for much of the arc. It was especially despised because it came in the middle of the intense "Popsicle War" arc.
** The much-hated "Minjung" arc was widely seen as this, with its sudden, jarring focus on some random girl on the other side of the world who indulges in navel-gazing for much of the arc. It was especially despised because it came in the middle of the intense "Popsicle War" arc.
to:
** "The Popsicle War" stretched out so long that many readers expressed concern over the extreme length of the plotline, which dominated most of the year it ran. While Campbell would later claim the reactions to this and some of the other lengthy plots were not as harsh for readers that started the series later and thus experiences these in an ArchiveBinge, he seemed to take the hint that the pacing for active readers was significantly slower. Subsequent plots have been were much shorter, with larger story arcs broken into more manageable chunks.
** The much-hated "Minjung" arc was widely seen as this, with its sudden, jarring focus on some random girl on the other side of the world who indulges in navel-gazing for much of the arc. It was especially despised because it came in the middle of the intense "Popsicle War"arc.arc with Campbell insisting that the arc was critical to understanding the main storyline. Years later he admitted he didn’t actually know how "Minjung" related to the series.
** The much-hated "Minjung" arc was widely seen as this, with its sudden, jarring focus on some random girl on the other side of the world who indulges in navel-gazing for much of the arc. It was especially despised because it came in the middle of the intense "Popsicle War"
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* HarsherInHindsight: While Marshall’s trauma about sexuality brought on by the abuse of his mother who repeatedly and publicly berates him for interfering with her sex life was certainly brought up in the comic to an extent as a bad thing that motivates his behavior, the overall tone of the story was to portray his trauma as a character flaw that other characters forcefully try to "fix" and their rather self-centered behavior being rejected was usually turned into more evidence that Marshall was "bad". A long-term example is Aggie knowingly trying to get close to him in hopes of getting him away from Karen but with the outward appearance of providing him a safe space from his bad home life. When she finally exposes her motivation to him and he takes it badly, we’re meant to take Aggie’s side even though he’s actually right about her having tried to break up his relationship for her. When she later rejects him trying to reach out to her again after the implosion of his relationship with Karen, she coldly rejects him and it’s implied he no longer has friends. But this basically happens not because of him being a bad person but because every character depicted around him as trying to reach out to him is only interested in him as a romantic fantasy and not as a person. No wonder he’s so traumatized.
** For one particular scene that’s problematic on this treatment of Marshall’s sexuality, Karen is not a good person but her relationship with Marshall was always depicted as genuine. So when she awkwardly tries to have sex with him in the shower, Marshall is shocked but understanding and calmly sets his boundaries with her while still reassuring her that he loves her. Unfortunately then the comic immediately depicts Karen crossing the boundaries they just agreed to by reaching out and jerking him off without consent, which from Marshall's expression we are meant to see as him realizing sex is okay. This ends up portraying *assault* as redemptive. Given that in the real world, asexuals often face "corrective rape" as a way to "fix" their lack of sexual urges, the implication that Marshall needed Karen to force herself on him to fix him comes off really bad the more time has passed since the strip's publication. The fandom further piled on him at this point, to the point where a then-popular fanart comic depicted him as unwilling to have sex even when they were married. A rare case where the fandom reaction is *also* aging poorly.
** It's hard to laugh off Bob and Elmer as comedy relief when their sexually-charged jokes coincide with them being depicted as raping Helen when she was too drunk to consent at one of Karen’s parties and later attempting to rape someone at Aggie’s house and then joking about it when she decides they can be "fixed." The comic never seems to understand the gravity of what they've done.
** For one particular scene that’s problematic on this treatment of Marshall’s sexuality, Karen is not a good person but her relationship with Marshall was always depicted as genuine. So when she awkwardly tries to have sex with him in the shower, Marshall is shocked but understanding and calmly sets his boundaries with her while still reassuring her that he loves her. Unfortunately then the comic immediately depicts Karen crossing the boundaries they just agreed to by reaching out and jerking him off without consent, which from Marshall's expression we are meant to see as him realizing sex is okay. This ends up portraying *assault* as redemptive. Given that in the real world, asexuals often face "corrective rape" as a way to "fix" their lack of sexual urges, the implication that Marshall needed Karen to force herself on him to fix him comes off really bad the more time has passed since the strip's publication. The fandom further piled on him at this point, to the point where a then-popular fanart comic depicted him as unwilling to have sex even when they were married. A rare case where the fandom reaction is *also* aging poorly.
** It's hard to laugh off Bob and Elmer as comedy relief when their sexually-charged jokes coincide with them being depicted as raping Helen when she was too drunk to consent at one of Karen’s parties and later attempting to rape someone at Aggie’s house and then joking about it when she decides they can be "fixed." The comic never seems to understand the gravity of what they've done.
to:
* HarsherInHindsight: While Marshall’s trauma about sexuality brought on by the abuse of his mother who repeatedly and publicly berates him for interfering with her sex life was certainly brought up in the comic to an extent as a bad thing that motivates his behavior, the overall tone of the story was to portray his trauma as a character flaw that other characters forcefully try to "fix" and their rather self-centered behavior being rejected was usually turned into more evidence that Marshall was "bad". A long-term example is Aggie knowingly trying to get close to him in hopes of getting pursuing him away from romantically in spite of him already being in a relationship with Karen but disguised these intentions with the outward appearance of providing him a safe space from his bad home life. When she finally exposes her motivation to him and he takes it badly, we’re meant to take Aggie’s side even though he’s actually right about her having tried to break up his relationship for her.in favor of dating her instead. When she later rejects him trying to reach out to her again after the implosion of his relationship with Karen, she coldly rejects him and it’s implied he no longer has friends. But this basically happens not because of him being a bad person but because every character depicted around him as trying to reach out to him is only interested in him as a romantic fantasy and not as a person. No wonder he’s so traumatized.
** For one particular scene that’s problematic on this treatment of Marshall’s sexuality, Karen is not a good person but her relationship with Marshall was always depicted as genuine. So when she awkwardly tries to have sex with him in the shower, Marshall is shocked but understanding and calmly sets his boundaries with her while still reassuring her that he loves her. Unfortunately then the comic immediately depicts Karen crossing the boundaries they just agreed to by reaching out and jerking him off without consent, [[NotIfTheyEnjoyedItRationalization which from Marshall's expression we are meant to see as him realizing sex isokay. okay]]. This ends up portraying *assault* *sexual assault* as redemptive. Given that in the real world, asexuals often face "corrective rape" as a way to "fix" their lack of sexual urges, the implication that Marshall needed Karen to force herself on him to fix him "fix him" comes off really bad the more time has passed since the strip's publication. The It doesn’t help either that the fandom further piled on him at this point, making many forum posts questioning what was "wrong" with him, to the point where a then-popular fanart comic depicted him as unwilling to have sex even when they were married. A rare case where the fandom reaction is *also* aging poorly.
** It's hard to laugh off Bob and Elmer as comedy relief when their sexually-charged jokes coincide with them being depicted as raping Helen when she was too drunk to consent at one of Karen’s parties and later attempting to rape someone at Aggie’s house and then joking about it when she decides they can be "fixed." The comic never seems to understand the gravity of what they'vedone.done and still uses them for horny jokes for years after they brag about raping Helen. Aggie shows the two of them more grace for being self-admitted and proud rapists than she showed Marshall for the apparently far worse crime of not wanting to date her.
** For one particular scene that’s problematic on this treatment of Marshall’s sexuality, Karen is not a good person but her relationship with Marshall was always depicted as genuine. So when she awkwardly tries to have sex with him in the shower, Marshall is shocked but understanding and calmly sets his boundaries with her while still reassuring her that he loves her. Unfortunately then the comic immediately depicts Karen crossing the boundaries they just agreed to by reaching out and jerking him off without consent, [[NotIfTheyEnjoyedItRationalization which from Marshall's expression we are meant to see as him realizing sex is
** It's hard to laugh off Bob and Elmer as comedy relief when their sexually-charged jokes coincide with them being depicted as raping Helen when she was too drunk to consent at one of Karen’s parties and later attempting to rape someone at Aggie’s house and then joking about it when she decides they can be "fixed." The comic never seems to understand the gravity of what they've
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Says a lot that this arc still gets under my skin some 15 odd years later.
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* StrawmanHasAPoint: We’re meant to believe Marshall snapping at Aggie when she reveals her crush on him during Suicide Run is showing he’s a bad person when he even rants about people having no respect for relationships but...he’s completely right. Aggie was literally only going on runs with him in the hopes of stealing him from Karen and her motivation for speaking to him about Karen’s treachery was not altruistic. He correctly called her out for this and she even confirmed it to him assuming confessing her feelings would make him love her. Aggie later completely cutting him out of her life when he tries to reach out to her, despite her seeing even rapists as worthy of redemption and despite her also knowing he had severe trauma and trust issues because of the abuse she’s watched him suffer from his mom, actually hollows out any of her supposed notions of justice... and again, proves Marshal right for *not being able to trust her.*
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** Stan's campaign slogan for class president, in 2006, is [[https://pixietrixcomix.com/penny-and-aggie/2006-03-10 "Make This School Great Again".]] Clearly the man was ahead of his time.
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** For one particular scene that’s problematic on this treatment of Marshall’s sexuality, Karen is not a good person but her relationship with Marshall was always depicted as genuine. So when she awkwardly tries to have sex with him in the shower, Marshall is shocked but understanding and calmly sets his boundaries with her while still reassuring her that he loves her. Unfortunately then the comic immediately depicts Karen crossing the boundaries they just agreed to by reaching out and jerking him off without consent, which from Marshall's expression we are meant to see as him realizing sex is okay. This ends up portraying *assault* as redemptive. Given that in the real world, asexuals often face "corrective rape" as a way to "fix" their lack of sexual urges, the implication that Marshall needed Karen to force herself on him to fix him comes off really bad the more time has passed since the strip's publication.
to:
** For one particular scene that’s problematic on this treatment of Marshall’s sexuality, Karen is not a good person but her relationship with Marshall was always depicted as genuine. So when she awkwardly tries to have sex with him in the shower, Marshall is shocked but understanding and calmly sets his boundaries with her while still reassuring her that he loves her. Unfortunately then the comic immediately depicts Karen crossing the boundaries they just agreed to by reaching out and jerking him off without consent, which from Marshall's expression we are meant to see as him realizing sex is okay. This ends up portraying *assault* as redemptive. Given that in the real world, asexuals often face "corrective rape" as a way to "fix" their lack of sexual urges, the implication that Marshall needed Karen to force herself on him to fix him comes off really bad the more time has passed since the strip's publication. The fandom further piled on him at this point, to the point where a then-popular fanart comic depicted him as unwilling to have sex even when they were married. A rare case where the fandom reaction is *also* aging poorly.
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No Context examples given some context, finally added some stuff about Marshall that has really stood out to me over the years since.
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** Marshall: Essentially kind and patient guy who means well? Or [[{{Wangst}} wangsty]] EmoTeen who can't get past his FreudianExcuse? Unlike with Lisa, the fandom grew more negative to his perceived blandness and wussiness over time, despite the fact that T Campbell liked the character.
to:
** Marshall: Essentially kind and patient guy who means well? Or [[{{Wangst}} wangsty]] EmoTeen who can't get past his FreudianExcuse? Unlike with Lisa, the fandom grew more negative to his perceived blandness and wussiness over time, despite the fact that T Campbell liked the character. Over the years the fandoms reaction and the comic’s ultimate rejection of him come off particularly cruel as we see him depicted on panel as a regular victim of an abusive parent but characters who are actively dangerous people like Bob and Elmer were treated better by both the fandom and the characters in the strip.
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* EvilIsSexy: Karen, Cyndi
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* EvilIsSexy: Karen, CyndiKaren and later Cyndi explicitly have their sexual attractiveness played up in the story and by the artists.
* HarsherInHindsight: While Marshall’s trauma about sexuality brought on by the abuse of his mother who repeatedly and publicly berates him for interfering with her sex life was certainly brought up in the comic to an extent as a bad thing that motivates his behavior, the overall tone of the story was to portray his trauma as a character flaw that other characters forcefully try to "fix" and their rather self-centered behavior being rejected was usually turned into more evidence that Marshall was "bad". A long-term example is Aggie knowingly trying to get close to him in hopes of getting him away from Karen but with the outward appearance of providing him a safe space from his bad home life. When she finally exposes her motivation to him and he takes it badly, we’re meant to take Aggie’s side even though he’s actually right about her having tried to break up his relationship for her. When she later rejects him trying to reach out to her again after the implosion of his relationship with Karen, she coldly rejects him and it’s implied he no longer has friends. But this basically happens not because of him being a bad person but because every character depicted around him as trying to reach out to him is only interested in him as a romantic fantasy and not as a person. No wonder he’s so traumatized.
** For one particular scene that’s problematic on this treatment of Marshall’s sexuality, Karen is not a good person but her relationship with Marshall was always depicted as genuine. So when she awkwardly tries to have sex with him in the shower, Marshall is shocked but understanding and calmly sets his boundaries with her while still reassuring her that he loves her. Unfortunately then the comic immediately depicts Karen crossing the boundaries they just agreed to by reaching out and jerking him off without consent, which from Marshall's expression we are meant to see as him realizing sex is okay. This ends up portraying *assault* as redemptive. Given that in the real world, asexuals often face "corrective rape" as a way to "fix" their lack of sexual urges, the implication that Marshall needed Karen to force herself on him to fix him comes off really bad the more time has passed since the strip's publication.
** It's hard to laugh off Bob and Elmer as comedy relief when their sexually-charged jokes coincide with them being depicted as raping Helen when she was too drunk to consent at one of Karen’s parties and later attempting to rape someone at Aggie’s house and then joking about it when she decides they can be "fixed." The comic never seems to understand the gravity of what they've done.
** For one particular scene that’s problematic on this treatment of Marshall’s sexuality, Karen is not a good person but her relationship with Marshall was always depicted as genuine. So when she awkwardly tries to have sex with him in the shower, Marshall is shocked but understanding and calmly sets his boundaries with her while still reassuring her that he loves her. Unfortunately then the comic immediately depicts Karen crossing the boundaries they just agreed to by reaching out and jerking him off without consent, which from Marshall's expression we are meant to see as him realizing sex is okay. This ends up portraying *assault* as redemptive. Given that in the real world, asexuals often face "corrective rape" as a way to "fix" their lack of sexual urges, the implication that Marshall needed Karen to force herself on him to fix him comes off really bad the more time has passed since the strip's publication.
** It's hard to laugh off Bob and Elmer as comedy relief when their sexually-charged jokes coincide with them being depicted as raping Helen when she was too drunk to consent at one of Karen’s parties and later attempting to rape someone at Aggie’s house and then joking about it when she decides they can be "fixed." The comic never seems to understand the gravity of what they've done.
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* JerkassWoobie: Ah, Karen. Oh, Charlotte...
to:
* JerkassWoobie: Ah, Karen. Oh, Charlotte...Karen is always depicted as both a growing sociopath and also a very lonely and emotionally confused girl who wants to be in control of the people around her to make up for years of social ostracization. The last bit of goodness in her is always depicted as her genuine relationship with Marshall, which she eventually sacrifices and we are told she never finds happiness again after this.
** Charlotte is a religious zealot who acts out against multiple innocent people due to the abuse of her equally zealous mother [[spoiler: and implied sexual abuse.]] The fact the first place she finds happiness is [[spoiler: in jail]] should speak volumes of the quality of her life before this.
** Charlotte is a religious zealot who acts out against multiple innocent people due to the abuse of her equally zealous mother [[spoiler: and implied sexual abuse.]] The fact the first place she finds happiness is [[spoiler: in jail]] should speak volumes of the quality of her life before this.
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This doesn’t meet the standards of a Creator’s Pet, the story doesn’t engage in shilling Marshall to make up for the reader hate.
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* CreatorsPet: Marshall was beloved by T Campbell, but not so much by the fans. One fan poll had him rated ''very'' low, and T himself has acknowledged that most people just didn't care for him.
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* UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: Aggie often falls into this. Being a SoapboxSadie in high school is understandable, but she judges Penny by appearance, attempts to subject Lisa to SlutShaming when she learns the latter is bisexual, and confesses to Marshall [[spoiler:during "Suicide Run", ''knowing'' that he's currently happy with Karen (even with NoAccountingForTaste being taken into account) and despite the fact that he's dealt with people who were friends with him in hopes of getting with him.]] She deliberately uses Darren (in a way doing to him what Robespierre cruelly did to Helen in Omega Sisters), then ruins the play she and her friends worked hard on when she learns she won't be able to hook up with him even though she ''didn't even like him''. She later gets upset after [[spoiler:seeing Penny happy after having rough sex with her]]. While wanting peace and stability in a relationship is understandable, her immaturity in regards to expecting her partner to be a "Shangri-La" of some sort was heavily derided as stupid and selfish by much of the fanbase.
to:
* UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: Aggie often falls into this. Being a SoapboxSadie in high school is understandable, but she judges Penny by appearance, attempts to subject Lisa to SlutShaming when she learns the latter is bisexual, and confesses to Marshall [[spoiler:during "Suicide Run", ''knowing'' that he's currently happy with Karen (even with NoAccountingForTaste being taken into account) and despite the fact that he's dealt with people who were friends with him in hopes of getting with him.]] She deliberately uses Darren (in a way doing to him what Robespierre cruelly did to Helen in Omega Sisters), then ruins the play she and her friends worked hard on when she learns she won't be able to hook up with him even though she ''didn't ''she didn't even like him''. She later gets upset after [[spoiler:seeing Penny happy after having rough sex with her]]. While wanting peace and stability in a relationship is understandable, her immaturity in regards to expecting her partner to be a "Shangri-La" of some sort was heavily derided as stupid and selfish by much of the fanbase.
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* UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: Aggie often falls into this. Being a SoapboxSadie in high school is understandable, but she judges Penny by appearance, attempts to subject Lisa to SlutShaming when she learns the latter is bisexual, and confesses to Marshall [[spoiler:during "Suicide Run", ''knowing'' that he's currently happy with Karen (even with NoAccountingForTaste being taken into account) and despite the fact that he's dealt with people who were friends with him in hopes of getting with him.]] She later gets upset after [[spoiler:seeing Penny happy after having rough sex with her]]. While wanting peace and stability in a relationship is understandable, her immaturity in regards to expecting her partner to be a "Shangri-La" of some sort was heavily derided as stupid and selfish by much of the fanbase.
to:
* UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: Aggie often falls into this. Being a SoapboxSadie in high school is understandable, but she judges Penny by appearance, attempts to subject Lisa to SlutShaming when she learns the latter is bisexual, and confesses to Marshall [[spoiler:during "Suicide Run", ''knowing'' that he's currently happy with Karen (even with NoAccountingForTaste being taken into account) and despite the fact that he's dealt with people who were friends with him in hopes of getting with him.]] She deliberately uses Darren (in a way doing to him what Robespierre cruelly did to Helen in Omega Sisters), then ruins the play she and her friends worked hard on when she learns she won't be able to hook up with him even though she ''didn't even like him''. She later gets upset after [[spoiler:seeing Penny happy after having rough sex with her]]. While wanting peace and stability in a relationship is understandable, her immaturity in regards to expecting her partner to be a "Shangri-La" of some sort was heavily derided as stupid and selfish by much of the fanbase.
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* HilariousInHindsight: In "Second Looks," Katy-Ann advises Penny not to stress over dumping Duane because "In ten years, five, you probably won't remember each other's names." Sage advice, though ironic coming from the only one of the Pennies who [[HighSchoolSweethearts ends up married to her high school boyfriend]].
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No citation which is needed.
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* UnfortunateImplications: Brandi, the light-skinned, permed black girl, is portrayed as unambiguously good, while Samantha, the dark-skinned, natural-haired black girl, is a paranoid plagiarist who sees racism everywhere where there (according to the author) is none left: [[HarsherInHindsight "She still hasn't processed Obama's election."]] The character of Minjung was also criticized in the epilogue for looking like a stereotypically orientalist caricature.
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* UnfortunateImplications: Brandi, the light-skinned, permed black girl, is portrayed as unambiguously good, while Samantha, the dark-skinned, natural-haired black girl, is a paranoid plagiarist who sees racism everywhere where there (according to the author) is none left: "She still hasn't processed Obama's election."
to:
* UnfortunateImplications: Brandi, the light-skinned, permed black girl, is portrayed as unambiguously good, while Samantha, the dark-skinned, natural-haired black girl, is a paranoid plagiarist who sees racism everywhere where there (according to the author) is none left: [[HarsherInHindsight "She still hasn't processed Obama's election.""]] The character of Minjung was also criticized in the epilogue for looking like a stereotypically orientalist caricature.
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* UnfortunateImplications: Brandi, the light-skinned, permed black girl, is portrayed as unambiguously good, while Samantha, the dark-skinned, natural-haired black girl, is a paranoid plagiarist who sees racism everywhere where there (according to the author) is none left: "She still hasn't processed Obama's election."
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Changed line(s) 3 (click to see context) from:
** The much-hated "Minjung" arc was widely seen as this, with its sudden, jarring focus on some random girl on the other side of the world who indulges in navel-gazing for much of the arc. It was especially despised because it came in the middle of the intense "Popsicle Wars" arc.
to:
** The much-hated "Minjung" arc was widely seen as this, with its sudden, jarring focus on some random girl on the other side of the world who indulges in navel-gazing for much of the arc. It was especially despised because it came in the middle of the intense "Popsicle Wars" War" arc.
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** The much-hated "Minjung" arc was widely seen as this, with its sudden, jarring focus on some random girl on the other side of the world who indulges in navel-gazing for much of the arc.
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** The much-hated "Minjung" arc was widely seen as this, with its sudden, jarring focus on some random girl on the other side of the world who indulges in navel-gazing for much of the arc. It was especially despised because it came in the middle of the intense "Popsicle Wars" arc.
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Deleted line(s) 22 (click to see context) :
* PainfulRhyme: "Boys find it ''way sick'' when those girls get ''Lasik''."
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** The much-hated "Minjung" arc was widely seen as this, with its sudden, jarring focus on some random girl on the other side of the world and indulge in navel-gazing for much of the arc.
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** The much-hated "Minjung" arc was widely seen as this, with its sudden, jarring focus on some random girl on the other side of the world and indulge who indulges in navel-gazing for much of the arc.
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* UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: Aggie often falls into this. Being a SoapboxSadie in high school is understandable, but she judges Penny by appearance, attempts to subject Lisa to SlutShaming when she learns the latter is bisexual, and confesses to Marshall [[spoiler:during "Suicide Run", ''knowing'' that he's currently happy with Karen (even with NoAccountingForTaste being taken into account) and despite the fact that he's dealt with people who were friends with him in hopes of getting with him.]] She later gets upset after [[spoiler:seeing Penny happy after having rough sex with her]]. While wanting peace and stability in a relationship is understandable, her immaturity in regards to expecting her partner to be a "Shangri-La" of some sort was heavily derided as immature and selfish by much of the fanbase.
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* UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: Aggie often falls into this. Being a SoapboxSadie in high school is understandable, but she judges Penny by appearance, attempts to subject Lisa to SlutShaming when she learns the latter is bisexual, and confesses to Marshall [[spoiler:during "Suicide Run", ''knowing'' that he's currently happy with Karen (even with NoAccountingForTaste being taken into account) and despite the fact that he's dealt with people who were friends with him in hopes of getting with him.]] She later gets upset after [[spoiler:seeing Penny happy after having rough sex with her]]. While wanting peace and stability in a relationship is understandable, her immaturity in regards to expecting her partner to be a "Shangri-La" of some sort was heavily derided as immature stupid and selfish by much of the fanbase.
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Changed line(s) 24 (click to see context) from:
* UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: Aggie often falls into this. Being a SoapboxSadie in high school is understandable, but she judges Penny by appearance, attempts to subject Lisa to SlutShaming when she learns the latter is bisexual, and confesses to Marshall [[spoiler:during "Suicide Run", ''knowing'' that he's currently happy with Karen (even with NoAccountingForTaste being taken into account) and despite the fact that he's dealt with people who were friends with him in hopes of getting with him.]] She later gets upset after having [[spoiler:seeing Penny happy after having rough sex with her]]. While wanting peace and stability in a relationship is understandable, her immaturity in regards to expecting her partner to be a "Shangri-La" of some sort was heavily derided as immature and selfish by much of the fanbase.
to:
* UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: Aggie often falls into this. Being a SoapboxSadie in high school is understandable, but she judges Penny by appearance, attempts to subject Lisa to SlutShaming when she learns the latter is bisexual, and confesses to Marshall [[spoiler:during "Suicide Run", ''knowing'' that he's currently happy with Karen (even with NoAccountingForTaste being taken into account) and despite the fact that he's dealt with people who were friends with him in hopes of getting with him.]] She later gets upset after having [[spoiler:seeing Penny happy after having rough sex with her]]. While wanting peace and stability in a relationship is understandable, her immaturity in regards to expecting her partner to be a "Shangri-La" of some sort was heavily derided as immature and selfish by much of the fanbase.
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* ArcFatigue: "The Popsicle War" stretched out so long that many readers expressed concern over the extreme length of the plotline, which dominated most of the year it ran. Subsequent plots have been much shorter, with larger story arcs broken into more manageable chunks. The much-hated ''Minjung'' arc contributed to this, with its sudden, jarring focus on some random girl (at least from the viewpoint of the fanbase) pop up out of nowhere and indulge in navel-gazing for much of the arc.
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* ArcFatigue: ArcFatigue:
** "The Popsicle War" stretched out so long that many readers expressed concern over the extreme length of the plotline, which dominated most of the year it ran. Subsequent plots have been much shorter, with larger story arcs broken into more manageablechunks. chunks.
** The much-hated''Minjung'' "Minjung" arc contributed to was widely seen as this, with its sudden, jarring focus on some random girl (at least from on the viewpoint other side of the fanbase) pop up out of nowhere world and indulge in navel-gazing for much of the arc.
** "The Popsicle War" stretched out so long that many readers expressed concern over the extreme length of the plotline, which dominated most of the year it ran. Subsequent plots have been much shorter, with larger story arcs broken into more manageable
** The much-hated
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Changed line(s) 1 (click to see context) from:
* ArcFatigue: "The Popsicle War" stretched out so long that many readers expressed concern over the extreme length of the plotline, which dominated most of the year it ran. Subsequent plots have been much shorter, with larger story arcs broken into more manageable chunks.
to:
* ArcFatigue: "The Popsicle War" stretched out so long that many readers expressed concern over the extreme length of the plotline, which dominated most of the year it ran. Subsequent plots have been much shorter, with larger story arcs broken into more manageable chunks. The much-hated ''Minjung'' arc contributed to this, with its sudden, jarring focus on some random girl (at least from the viewpoint of the fanbase) pop up out of nowhere and indulge in navel-gazing for much of the arc.
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* UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: Aggie often falls into this. Being a SoapboxSadie in high school is understandable, but she judges Penny by appearance, attempts to subject Lisa to SlutShaming when she learns the latter is bisexual, and confesses to Marshall [[spoiler:during "Suicide Run", ''knowing'' that he's currently happy with Karen (even with NoAccountingForTaste being taken into account) and despite the fact that he's dealt with people who were friends with him in hopes of getting with him.]] She later gets upset after having [[spoiler:seeing Penny happy after having rough sex with her]]. While wanting peace and stability in a relationship is understandable, her immaturity in regards to expecting her partner to be a "Shangri-La" of some sort was heavily derided as immature and selfish by much of the fanbase.
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* CompleteMonster: [[BitchInSheepsClothing Cyndi Kristoffer]] is a {{manipulative|Bastard}} [[TheSociopath sociopath]] who almost gets off on driving people to suicide. In a really creepy and incriminating file on her laptop, she documented how fun and easy it is to dig a hole into someone's psyche and widen it. She brags about nearly driving Michelle into starving herself to death and she had plans to destroy Daphne and Sara's relationship in the hopes of getting one or both of them to commit suicide. In the same strip this was all revealed, she successfully [[spoiler:goaded Charlotte into slitting her own throat by using her MommyIssues against her]]. [[http://pennyandaggie.com/index.php?p=1111 Seeing someone bleed out in front of her thanks to her words puts a grin on Cyndi's face.]] Even more damning is that both her biggest "success" so far AND her next intended victim, who she merely considers "practice"--[[spoiler:Meg]]--are erstwhile members of her own clique from the "Popsicle War" arc.
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* CompleteMonster: [[BitchInSheepsClothing Cyndi Kristoffer]] is a {{manipulative|Bastard}} [[TheSociopath sociopath]] sociopath who almost gets off on [[DrivenToSuicide driving people to suicide.suicide]], in one case smiling while watching someone commit suicide in front of her. In a really creepy and incriminating file on her laptop, she documented how fun and easy it is to dig a hole into someone's psyche and widen it. She brags about nearly driving Michelle into starving herself to death and she had plans to destroy Daphne and Sara's relationship in the hopes of getting one or both of them to commit suicide. In the same strip this was all revealed, she successfully [[spoiler:goaded Charlotte into slitting her own throat by using her MommyIssues against her]]. [[http://pennyandaggie.com/index.php?p=1111 Seeing someone bleed out in front of her thanks to her words puts a grin on Cyndi's face.]] Even more damning is that both Both her biggest "success" so far AND as well as her next intended victim, who she merely considers "practice"--[[spoiler:Meg]]--are erstwhile members of her own clique from the "Popsicle War" arc.
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* HeartwarmingMoments: The last page of "Missing Person." Also a TearJerker.
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* HeartwarmingMoments: SugarWiki/HeartwarmingMoments: The last page of "Missing Person." Also a TearJerker.
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** Lisa: Entertaining and insightful GenkiGirl, or annoying, TotallyRadical-talking MarySue? (Note: fan opinion, though once sharply divided over Lisa, has mostly shifted to the first view; she's now more of an EnsembleDarkhorse.)
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** Lisa: Entertaining and insightful GenkiGirl, or annoying, TotallyRadical-talking MarySue? character? (Note: fan opinion, though once sharply divided over Lisa, has mostly shifted to the first view; she's now more of an EnsembleDarkhorse.)
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Must be unintentional subtext. Out gay characters obviously don't count.
Deleted line(s) 16 (click to see context) :
* HoYay: Virtually a defining concept of the strip - Two openly gay relationships, and the numerous characters that simply have the subtext, such as the main characters themselves. Even characters who had shown virtually no hints of homosexuality often have "twinges" towards it at certain points.
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** Karen did a lot of morally reprehensible things (including but not limited to outright prejudice), but the fact she genuinely loved Marshall was at least a redeeming feature. [[That goes out the window when she willingly cheats on him at the end of the "Popsicle Wars" arc, at a party he's present at no less.]]
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** Karen did a lot of morally reprehensible things (including but not limited to outright prejudice), but the fact she genuinely loved Marshall was at least a redeeming feature. [[That [[spoiler: That goes out the window when she willingly cheats on him at the end of the "Popsicle Wars" arc, at a party he's present at no less.]]
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Added DiffLines:
** Karen did a lot of morally reprehensible things (including but not limited to outright prejudice), but the fact she genuinely loved Marshall was at least a redeeming feature. [[That goes out the window when she willingly cheats on him at the end of the "Popsicle Wars" arc, at a party he's present at no less.]]
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** The whole cast has shades of woobie from time to time. Hell, Karen's broken gaze into the past at the end of the War is sad, even when she was such a horrid witch. Also, Helen, for whom becoming part of the SomethingPositive cast was actually a ''step up'' for her.
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** The whole cast has shades of woobie from time to time. Hell, Karen's broken gaze into the past at the end of the War is sad, even when she was such a horrid witch. Also, Helen, for whom becoming part of the SomethingPositive ''Webcomic/SomethingPositive'' cast was actually a ''step up'' for her.
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Changed line(s) 10 (click to see context) from:
* CompleteMonster: [[BitchInSheepsClothing Cyndi Kristoffer is a {{manipulative|Bastard}} [[TheSociopath sociopath]] who almost gets off on driving people to suicide. In a really creepy and incriminating file on her laptop, she documented how fun and easy it is to dig a hole into someone's psyche and widen it. She brags about nearly driving Michelle into starving herself to death and she had plans to destroy Daphne and Sara's relationship in the hopes of getting one or both of them to commit suicide. In the same strip this was all revealed, she successfully [[spoiler:goaded Charlotte into slitting her own throat by using her MommyIssues against her]]. [[http://pennyandaggie.com/index.php?p=1111 Seeing someone bleed out in front of her thanks to her words puts a grin on Cyndi's face.]] Even more damning is that both her biggest "success" so far AND her next intended victim, who she merely considers "practice" [[spoiler: (Meg)]], are erstwhile members of her own clique from the "Popsicle War" arc.
to:
* CompleteMonster: [[BitchInSheepsClothing Cyndi Kristoffer Kristoffer]] is a {{manipulative|Bastard}} [[TheSociopath sociopath]] who almost gets off on driving people to suicide. In a really creepy and incriminating file on her laptop, she documented how fun and easy it is to dig a hole into someone's psyche and widen it. She brags about nearly driving Michelle into starving herself to death and she had plans to destroy Daphne and Sara's relationship in the hopes of getting one or both of them to commit suicide. In the same strip this was all revealed, she successfully [[spoiler:goaded Charlotte into slitting her own throat by using her MommyIssues against her]]. [[http://pennyandaggie.com/index.php?p=1111 Seeing someone bleed out in front of her thanks to her words puts a grin on Cyndi's face.]] Even more damning is that both her biggest "success" so far AND her next intended victim, who she merely considers "practice" [[spoiler: (Meg)]], are "practice"--[[spoiler:Meg]]--are erstwhile members of her own clique from the "Popsicle War" arc.
