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* EvilIsSexy:
** Among the ladies, Reika and Semiramis fit this. Both two women are quite attractive and at the same time are the most morally ambiguous among the cast with former being straight-up AxCrazy.
** Celenike is one of the sexiest women in the show, but unlike Reika and Semiramis, she is utterly sociopathic and singularly horrific, even rivaling [[VisualNovel/FateStayNight Zouken and Shinji Matou]] in straight up monstrosity.
** Among the ladies, Reika and Semiramis fit this. Both two women are quite attractive and at the same time are the most morally ambiguous among the cast with former being straight-up AxCrazy.
** Celenike is one of the sexiest women in the show, but unlike Reika and Semiramis, she is utterly sociopathic and singularly horrific, even rivaling [[VisualNovel/FateStayNight Zouken and Shinji Matou]] in straight up monstrosity.
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** Fiore's character arc in the series involves her developing into a leader for the Black Facation after [[spoiler: Darnic is killed trying to obtain the Grail back]], and the plotline is consistent for most of the series. However, on the night before the final battle, Chiron and Caules have a conversation and agree that she doesn't have what it takes to lead the faction as a Magus, and convince her to pass her Magic Circuits to Caules instead. This twist comes out of left field, especially after Chiron and Caules had discussed the issue before, and Caules agreed to help Fiore as much as possible, stepping up to be her [[TheLancer lancer]]. Furthermore, Fiore's role just sorta vanishes after that moment, and she decides to give up on being a Magus even though she had gone along with it of her will and had shown herself being fairly capable. It feels like the entire character arc was just to make Caules develop at the expense of Fiore's own character arc. While it is admirable Fiore wants to go through rehab to get her legs working again, it comes across as a twist for the sake of a twist and feels necessarily forced.
to:
** Fiore's character arc in the series involves her developing into a leader for the Black Facation Faction after [[spoiler: Darnic is killed trying to obtain the Grail back]], and the plotline is consistent for most of the series. However, on the night before the final battle, Chiron and Caules have a conversation and agree that she doesn't have what it takes to lead the faction as a Magus, and convince her to pass her Magic Circuits to Caules instead. This twist comes out of left field, especially after Chiron and Caules had discussed the issue before, and Caules agreed to help Fiore as much as possible, stepping up to be her [[TheLancer lancer]]. Furthermore, Fiore's role just sorta vanishes after that moment, and she decides to give up on being a Magus even though she had gone along with it of her will and had shown herself being fairly capable. It feels like the entire character arc was just to make Caules develop at the expense of Fiore's own character arc. While it is admirable Fiore wants to go through rehab to get her legs working again, it comes across as a twist for the sake of a twist and feels necessarily forced.
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** There has been debate about Jeanne's growing feelings for Sieg. While the final episode has Laeticia state that any romantic feelings come from Jeanne herself, there's debate on how much Laeticia had to do with bringing them out in the open. While Laeticia says it was all from Jeanne, it is important to note that Laeticia does influence a bit of Jeanne's personality, so it its possible that Laeticia might of developed some amount of feelings for Sieg that rubbed off on Jeanne.
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** There has been debate about Jeanne's growing feelings for Sieg. While the final episode has Laeticia state that any romantic feelings come from Jeanne herself, there's debate on how much Laeticia had to do with bringing them out in the open. While Laeticia says it was all from Jeanne, it is important to note that Laeticia does influence a bit of Jeanne's personality, so it its possible that Laeticia might of have developed some amount of feelings for Sieg that rubbed off on Jeanne.
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** MindScrew is the story of the birth of Mordred, which was conceived between a [[BrotherSisterIncest Saber who turned into a man and her half-sister]], who later turned a child into a clone of "father", can be quite amusing for some. The fact that the original Mordred was also a child of SurpriseIncest does not help much. Despite this, Mordred is such an endearing character that if anything, her MindScrew backstory makes her more likeable.
** When [[spoiler: Atalanta decides to use Agrius Metamorphosis to kill Ruler, the way in which her transformation is handled is actually pretty good, as the animators make it difficult to see her, but in a way that conveys how bestial she becomes. However, the moment the animation gives the viewer the chance to see her full body, all drama is lost for how silly she looks. Instead of taking on a monstrous form as you would think, she instead changes to a {{Stripperific}} outfit with a black boar head on her shoulder and her hair turns white. It becomes way more funny to see then it should be, making what should have been a terrifying form, into an edgy looking recolor of Atalanta]]. At the same time, it works because of [[spoiler:how absolutely [[AxCrazy batshit]] and [[PrimalStance feral]] Atalanta becomes as a result, screaming out Ruler's name and [[LimpAndLivid moving around]] like she's two seconds away from trying to tear Jeanne apart with her bare hands, which when combined with appearance becomes both disturbing and strangely humorous.]]
** When [[spoiler: Atalanta decides to use Agrius Metamorphosis to kill Ruler, the way in which her transformation is handled is actually pretty good, as the animators make it difficult to see her, but in a way that conveys how bestial she becomes. However, the moment the animation gives the viewer the chance to see her full body, all drama is lost for how silly she looks. Instead of taking on a monstrous form as you would think, she instead changes to a {{Stripperific}} outfit with a black boar head on her shoulder and her hair turns white. It becomes way more funny to see then it should be, making what should have been a terrifying form, into an edgy looking recolor of Atalanta]]. At the same time, it works because of [[spoiler:how absolutely [[AxCrazy batshit]] and [[PrimalStance feral]] Atalanta becomes as a result, screaming out Ruler's name and [[LimpAndLivid moving around]] like she's two seconds away from trying to tear Jeanne apart with her bare hands, which when combined with appearance becomes both disturbing and strangely humorous.]]
to:
** MindScrew is the story of the birth of Mordred, which was conceived between a [[BrotherSisterIncest Saber who turned into a man and her half-sister]], who later turned a child into a clone of "father", can be quite amusing for some. The fact that the original Mordred was also a child of SurpriseIncest does not help much. Despite this, Mordred is such an endearing character that if anything, her MindScrew backstory makes her more likeable.
likeable, and her angst over both her family and her gender more relatable.
** When [[spoiler: Atalanta decides to use Agrius Metamorphosis to kill Ruler, the way in which her transformation is handled is actually pretty good, as the animators make it difficult to see her, but in a way that conveys how bestial she becomes. However, the moment the animation gives the viewer the chance to see her full body, all drama is lost for how silly she looks. Instead of taking on a monstrous form as you would think, she instead changes to a {{Stripperific}} outfit with a black boar head on her shoulder and her hair turns white. It becomes way more funny to see then it should be, making what should have been a terrifyingform, form into an edgy looking recolor of Atalanta]]. At the same time, it works because of [[spoiler:how absolutely [[AxCrazy batshit]] and [[PrimalStance feral]] Atalanta becomes as a result, screaming out Ruler's name and [[LimpAndLivid moving around]] like she's two seconds away from trying to tear Jeanne apart with her bare hands, which when combined with appearance becomes both disturbing and strangely humorous.]]
** When [[spoiler: Atalanta decides to use Agrius Metamorphosis to kill Ruler, the way in which her transformation is handled is actually pretty good, as the animators make it difficult to see her, but in a way that conveys how bestial she becomes. However, the moment the animation gives the viewer the chance to see her full body, all drama is lost for how silly she looks. Instead of taking on a monstrous form as you would think, she instead changes to a {{Stripperific}} outfit with a black boar head on her shoulder and her hair turns white. It becomes way more funny to see then it should be, making what should have been a terrifying
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** For ''Fate'' spin-offs, this is the point when {{Fanservice}} in character design becomes egregious. The larger set of Servants makes room for two Saberfaces[[note]]Jeanne and Mordred[[/note]], two (debatably three) HistoricalGenderFlip characters[[note]]Frankenstein's Monster and Mordred, with the technically unknown Jack the Ripper as the third[[/note]] and one [[DudeLooksLikeALady androgynous man]]. Female characters are also noticeably bustier and/or more {{Stripperific}} than in ''Literature/FateZero'' and ''VisualNovel/FateStayNight''.
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** For ''Fate'' spin-offs, this is the point when {{Fanservice}} in character design becomes egregious. The larger set of Servants makes room for two Saberfaces[[note]]Jeanne and Mordred[[/note]], two (debatably three) HistoricalGenderFlip characters[[note]]Frankenstein's Monster and Mordred, with the technically unknown Jack the Ripper as the third[[/note]] and one [[DudeLooksLikeALady androgynous man]]. Female characters are also noticeably bustier and/or more {{Stripperific}} than in ''Literature/FateZero'' and ''VisualNovel/FateStayNight''.[[note]]There's an argument to be made that ''VideoGame/FateEXTRA'' is the real patient zero for these trends, but ''Apocrypha''[='=]s long gestation time makes it a bit more complicated than comparing release dates.[[/note]]
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** Fiore is [[Franchise/SpiderMan Doc Ock]] [[labelnote:Explanation (spoilers)]] Fiore's Mystic Code, the Bronze-Link Manipulators, manifest as five giant {{Magitek}} limbs that make her look like a cute female version of the infamous Spiderman villain. [[/labelnote]]
to:
** Fiore is [[Franchise/SpiderMan [[ComicBook/SpiderMan Doc Ock]] [[labelnote:Explanation (spoilers)]] Fiore's Mystic Code, the Bronze-Link Manipulators, manifest as five giant {{Magitek}} limbs that make her look like a cute female version of the infamous Spiderman villain. [[/labelnote]]
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** Sieg pulling out Astolfo's sword to deliver the finish blow in his fight with [[spoiler: Karna]]. Up until that point, whenever Sieg had turned into Siegfried, the sword given to him by Astolfo had turned into Balmung, implying that the sword acted as a catalyst for him to use Balmung in combat. Thus, when he suddenly had it indepdently of Balmung at the end of his fight with [[spoiler: Karna]], it comes out of nowhere since Sieg had thrown Balmung at [[spoiler: Karna]] and was dashing to retrieve it, only to suddenly have the sword on him without any explanation.
to:
** Sieg pulling out Astolfo's sword to deliver the finish blow in his fight with [[spoiler: Karna]]. Up until that point, whenever Sieg had turned into Siegfried, the sword given to him by Astolfo had turned into Balmung, implying that the sword acted as a catalyst for him to use Balmung in combat. Thus, when he suddenly had it indepdently independently of Balmung at the end of his fight with [[spoiler: Karna]], it comes out of nowhere since Sieg had thrown Balmung at [[spoiler: Karna]] and was dashing to retrieve it, only to suddenly have the sword on him without any explanation.
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* TransAudienceInterpretation:
** Mordred's [[BerserkButton strong dislike]] of being treated like or referred to as a woman has caused many viewers to interpret her this way. This is despite the fact that she still uses female pronouns and similarly dislikes being treated too much like a man.
** Astolfo also tends to receive this treatment by viewers due to his incredibly feminine appearance and behavior, especially after his later appearances started to deliberately obfuscate his gender.
** Mordred's [[BerserkButton strong dislike]] of being treated like or referred to as a woman has caused many viewers to interpret her this way. This is despite the fact that she still uses female pronouns and similarly dislikes being treated too much like a man.
** Astolfo also tends to receive this treatment by viewers due to his incredibly feminine appearance and behavior, especially after his later appearances started to deliberately obfuscate his gender.
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** [[spoiler: After taking over the Red Faction and gaining all the Servants of the Red Faction minus Mordred and a dead Spartacus, Shirou is confronted by Atalanta and Achilles who both question his motives and goals. While Atalanta accepts fighting for him out of necessity, Achilles shows disgust with Shirou and makes it clear he does not want to work with him. Given that his teacher Chiron is a member of the Black Faction, and that Avicebron defected to the Red Faction, thus leaving the Black Faction extremely underpowered, it would have made sense in character for Achilles to defect, or try to at least, and fight alongside his friend. Instead Achilles stays fighting for Shirou in-story out of a sense of honor and being at least partially impressed by Shirou's convictions and desire to see his wish come true. On a meta level, however, the reason for this seems more likely to prevent Karna from having anyone but Sieg to remotely be capable of fighting him, and to make the Black Faction the "underdog" of the two.]]
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** [[spoiler: After taking over the Red Faction and gaining all the Servants of the Red Faction minus Mordred and a dead Spartacus, Shirou is confronted by Atalanta and Achilles who both question his motives and goals. While Atalanta accepts fighting for him out of necessity, Achilles shows disgust with Shirou and makes it clear he does not want to work with him. Given that his teacher Chiron is a member of the Black Faction, and that Avicebron defected This seems to the Red Faction, thus leaving the Black Faction extremely underpowered, it would have made sense in character for suggesting Achilles to defect, either defecting, or try to at least, and fight alongside his friend. Instead Achilles stays fighting for going against Shirou in-story in some form, but he instead remains on Shirou's side out of a sense of honor and being at least partially impressed by Shirou's convictions and desire to see his wish come true. On a meta level, however, the reason for this seems more likely to prevent Karna from having anyone but Sieg to remotely be capable of fighting him, and to make the Black Faction the "underdog" of the two.two, which feels like an interesting direction for his character that was not done.]]
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** Fiore's character arc in the series involves her developing into a leader for the Black Facation after [[spoiler: Darnic is killed trying to obtain the Grail back]], and the plotline is consistent for most of the series. However, on the night before the final battle, Chiron and Caules have a conversation and agree that she doesn't have what it takes to lead the facation as a Magus, and convince her to pass her Magic Circuits to Caules instead. This twist comes out of left field, especially after Chiron and Caules had discussed the issue before, and Caules agreed to help Fiore as much as possible, stepping up to be her [[TheLancer lancer]]. Furthermore, Fiore's role just sorta vanishes after that moment, and she decides to give up on being a Magus even though she had gone along with it of her will and had shown herself being fairly capable. It feels like the entire character arc was just to make Caules develop at the expense of Fiore's own character arc. While it is admirable Fiore wants to go through rehab to get her legs working again, it comes across as a twist for the sake of a twist and feels necessarily forced.
to:
** Fiore's character arc in the series involves her developing into a leader for the Black Facation after [[spoiler: Darnic is killed trying to obtain the Grail back]], and the plotline is consistent for most of the series. However, on the night before the final battle, Chiron and Caules have a conversation and agree that she doesn't have what it takes to lead the facation faction as a Magus, and convince her to pass her Magic Circuits to Caules instead. This twist comes out of left field, especially after Chiron and Caules had discussed the issue before, and Caules agreed to help Fiore as much as possible, stepping up to be her [[TheLancer lancer]]. Furthermore, Fiore's role just sorta vanishes after that moment, and she decides to give up on being a Magus even though she had gone along with it of her will and had shown herself being fairly capable. It feels like the entire character arc was just to make Caules develop at the expense of Fiore's own character arc. While it is admirable Fiore wants to go through rehab to get her legs working again, it comes across as a twist for the sake of a twist and feels necessarily forced.
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** Sieg pulling out Astolfo's sword to deliver the finish blow in his fight with [[spoiler: Karna]]. Up until that point, whenever Sieg had turned into Siegfried, the sword given to him by Astolfo had turned into Balmung, implying that the sword acted as a catalyst for him to use Balmung in combat. This was shown explicitly in the anime, and was never made to be any different in the Light Novel as well. Thus, when he did so to win his fight with [[spoiler: Karna]], it comes out of nowhere since Sieg had thrown Balmung at [[spoiler: Karna]] and was dashing to retrieve it, only to suddenly have the sword on him. The only explanation that would make sense was that the sword turned back to normal because Sieg was running out of time to stay transformed as Siegfried, but this is never confirmed nor made clear. Even if this was the reason given it would still not make sense, as the sword would still have been where Balmung was since Sieg did not have it on hand. The way the scene plays makes it seem like they used RuleOfCool, and than realized they had made a mistake with how Sieg could win, and so hastily changed how his powers worked to justify his victory.
** [[spoiler:Sieg gaining access to Fran's two Noble Phantasm's, Blasted Tree and Bridal Chest during the final battle against Shirou. The story tries to justify this by saying that when Fran sacrificed herself to try and kill Mordred using [[HeroicSacrifice Blasted Tree]], she willed a piece of herself to become a part of him after Mordred killed him meaning that he gained the power to use her abilities when he was revived, and this is a result of her "will" actually being contained in the lightning that originally gave her life and runs through her body. While this is already pretty bad since her lightning reviving Sieg to begin with is questionable writing, the bigger issue is with how this fact isn't revealed until the fighting starts between Sieg and Shirou, meaning the ability literally comes out of nowhere to justify Sieg beating Shirou. Adding to the issue is that Sieg already got a power-up when he was given Siegfried's heart and could thus use his powers temporarily and with great cost to himself. It would have made more sense for Sieg to turn into Siegfried to win, or better yet turn into the Dragon Fafnir like he does in the end to defeat Shirou, but given he used all his Command Seals to beat Karna, Fran's abilities end up feeling like a last minute twist]].
** [[spoiler:Sieg gaining access to Fran's two Noble Phantasm's, Blasted Tree and Bridal Chest during the final battle against Shirou. The story tries to justify this by saying that when Fran sacrificed herself to try and kill Mordred using [[HeroicSacrifice Blasted Tree]], she willed a piece of herself to become a part of him after Mordred killed him meaning that he gained the power to use her abilities when he was revived, and this is a result of her "will" actually being contained in the lightning that originally gave her life and runs through her body. While this is already pretty bad since her lightning reviving Sieg to begin with is questionable writing, the bigger issue is with how this fact isn't revealed until the fighting starts between Sieg and Shirou, meaning the ability literally comes out of nowhere to justify Sieg beating Shirou. Adding to the issue is that Sieg already got a power-up when he was given Siegfried's heart and could thus use his powers temporarily and with great cost to himself. It would have made more sense for Sieg to turn into Siegfried to win, or better yet turn into the Dragon Fafnir like he does in the end to defeat Shirou, but given he used all his Command Seals to beat Karna, Fran's abilities end up feeling like a last minute twist]].
to:
** Sieg pulling out Astolfo's sword to deliver the finish blow in his fight with [[spoiler: Karna]]. Up until that point, whenever Sieg had turned into Siegfried, the sword given to him by Astolfo had turned into Balmung, implying that the sword acted as a catalyst for him to use Balmung in combat. This was shown explicitly in the anime, and was never made to be any different in the Light Novel as well. Thus, when he did so to win suddenly had it indepdently of Balmung at the end of his fight with [[spoiler: Karna]], it comes out of nowhere since Sieg had thrown Balmung at [[spoiler: Karna]] and was dashing to retrieve it, only to suddenly have the sword on him. The only explanation that would make sense was that the sword turned back to normal because Sieg was running out of time to stay transformed as Siegfried, but this is never confirmed nor made clear. Even if this was the reason given it would still not make sense, as the sword would still have been where Balmung was since Sieg did not have it on hand. The way the scene plays makes it seem like they used RuleOfCool, and than realized they had made a mistake with how Sieg could win, and so hastily changed how his powers worked to justify his victory.
him without any explanation.
** [[spoiler:Sieg gaining access to Fran's two Noble Phantasm's, Blasted Tree and Bridal Chest during the final battle against Shirou. The story tries to justify this by saying that when Fran sacrificed herself to try and kill Mordred using [[HeroicSacrifice Blasted Tree]], she willed a piece of herself to become a part of him after Mordred killed him meaning that he gained the power to use her abilities when he was revived, and this is a result of her "will" actually being contained in the lightning that originally gave her life and runs through her body.While this is already pretty bad since her lightning reviving Sieg to begin with is questionable writing, the bigger issue is with how this fact This isn't revealed until the fighting starts between Sieg and Shirou, Shirou however, meaning the ability literally comes out of nowhere to justify Sieg beating Shirou. Adding to the issue is that Sieg already got a power-up when he was given Siegfried's heart and could thus use his powers temporarily and with great cost to himself. It would have made more sense for Sieg to turn into Siegfried to win, or better yet turn into the Dragon Fafnir like he does in the end to defeat Shirou, but given who he used all his Command Seals to beat Karna, Fran's abilities end up feeling like wouldn't have had a last minute twist]].chance of fighting otherwise.]]
** [[spoiler:Sieg gaining access to Fran's two Noble Phantasm's, Blasted Tree and Bridal Chest during the final battle against Shirou. The story tries to justify this by saying that when Fran sacrificed herself to try and kill Mordred using [[HeroicSacrifice Blasted Tree]], she willed a piece of herself to become a part of him after Mordred killed him meaning that he gained the power to use her abilities when he was revived, and this is a result of her "will" actually being contained in the lightning that originally gave her life and runs through her body.
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Obvious Beta is YMMV. Cleanup: (re)moving wick from trope/work example lists
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* ObviousBeta: Looking over the various half-finished and hilariously broken Servants listed, it's clear that this was a project that was abandoned halfway through development. The Light Novel has taken some steps to remove this by replacing or altering characters or skills.
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* InformedWrongness: Amakusa Shirou's wish to [[spoiler:make all of humanity immortal]] is treated like it's too heinous to allow. Though it does have its issues, Amakusa's arguments for the wish are far too compelling to debate against either, only opposed by the heroes platitudes and little else. While there is a reason the wish wouldn't be for the best, it only exists within supplementary material that neither party has access to. All this contributes to the RootingForTheEmpire the Red Faction gets from fans.
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* InformedWrongness: Amakusa Shirou's wish to [[spoiler:make all of humanity immortal]] is treated like it's too heinous to allow. Though it does have its issues, Amakusa's arguments for the wish are far too compelling extremely compelling, and the heroes' attempts to debate against either, only opposed by the heroes it amount to unconvincing platitudes and little else. While there is a reason the wish wouldn't be for the best, it only exists within supplementary material that neither party has access to. All this contributes to the RootingForTheEmpire the Red Faction gets from fans.
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* ItWasHisSled: "Shirou Kotomine" is an IdenticalStranger who has nothing to do with either the protagonist of the original ''VisualNovel/FateStayNight'', Shirou, or his FutureBadass self Archer. Originally a big meta-twist that played with many fans' expectations for this alternate universe, it's now an extremely common LateArrivalSpoiler.
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** Astolfo's UnsettlingGenderReveal to Jeanne takes a whole new level of meaning after an incident in February 2021 at Twitter where an Astolfo cosplayer... did a ''very'' NSFW thing with his [[BiggerIsBetterInBed you-know-what]], causing his name to trend, and then [[Creator/FayeMata his English VA]] took notice and at first felt honored [[OhCrap until she found out what it truly entailed.]]
to:
** Astolfo's UnsettlingGenderReveal to Jeanne in episode 19 takes a whole new level of meaning after an that certain Twitter incident in February 2021 at Twitter 2021, where an Astolfo cosplayer... cosplayer did a a... ''very'' NSFW thing with his [[BiggerIsBetterInBed you-know-what]], causing his name to trend, and trend; then [[Creator/FayeMata his English VA]] took notice and at first felt honored honored, [[OhCrap until she found out what it truly entailed.]]
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Rated M For Manly is about works, not specific characters
Changed line(s) 59 (click to see context) from:
* GermansLoveDavidHasselhoff: While Mordred and Kairi Shishigou are well-received in Japan, ([[http://img1.ak.crunchyroll.com/i/spire1/c39727a2258a5ef2f68cc2096a4d60011502372722_full.jpg particularly the]] [[https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DJO1p73VoAAHqPi.jpg former]], they have to compete with other characters (namely Jeanne, Astolfo and even Sieg). The American fanbase, however, mostly adores them to the point that they believe they deserve the main protagonist spot as opposed to Sieg, [[AmericansHateTingle who was instead despised there (story-related reasons already listed above)]]. ValuesDissonance is in play for great effects here: Mordred being the {{tomboy}}ish daredevil and Shishigou being a [[RatedMForManly manly man]] with CoolShades and both of them being {{anti hero}}ic to a degree fit well with the Western tastes as opposed to Sieg's frail shape, [[{{Bishonen}} rather androgynous]] look and being a straight-up heroic character which the Japanese couldn't get enough of, but it's not as well-received in the West.
to:
* GermansLoveDavidHasselhoff: While Mordred and Kairi Shishigou are well-received in Japan, ([[http://img1.ak.crunchyroll.com/i/spire1/c39727a2258a5ef2f68cc2096a4d60011502372722_full.jpg particularly the]] [[https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DJO1p73VoAAHqPi.jpg former]], they have to compete with other characters (namely Jeanne, Astolfo and even Sieg). The American fanbase, however, mostly adores them to the point that they believe they deserve the main protagonist spot as opposed to Sieg, [[AmericansHateTingle who was instead despised there (story-related reasons already listed above)]]. ValuesDissonance is in play for great effects here: Mordred being the {{tomboy}}ish daredevil and Shishigou being a [[RatedMForManly manly man]] ManlyMan with CoolShades and both of them being {{anti hero}}ic to a degree fit well with the Western tastes as opposed to Sieg's frail shape, [[{{Bishonen}} rather androgynous]] look and being a straight-up heroic character which the Japanese couldn't get enough of, but it's not as well-received in the West.
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** For ''Fate'' spin-offs, this is the point when {{Fanservice}} in character design becomes egregious. The larger set of Servants makes room for two Saberfaces[[note]]Jeanne and Mordred[[/note]], two (debatably three) HistoricalGenderFlip characters[[note]]Frankenstein's Monster and Mordred, with the technically unknown Jack the Ripper as the third[[/note]] and one [[DudeLooksLikeALady androgynous man]]. Female characters are also noticeably bustier and/or more {{Stripperific}} than in ''LightNovel/FateZero'' and ''VisualNovel/FateStayNight''.
to:
** For ''Fate'' spin-offs, this is the point when {{Fanservice}} in character design becomes egregious. The larger set of Servants makes room for two Saberfaces[[note]]Jeanne and Mordred[[/note]], two (debatably three) HistoricalGenderFlip characters[[note]]Frankenstein's Monster and Mordred, with the technically unknown Jack the Ripper as the third[[/note]] and one [[DudeLooksLikeALady androgynous man]]. Female characters are also noticeably bustier and/or more {{Stripperific}} than in ''LightNovel/FateZero'' ''Literature/FateZero'' and ''VisualNovel/FateStayNight''.
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** Being Lancer Is Wonderful [[labelnote:Explanation]]Both Lancers are ridiculously powerful and manage to score some impressive feats, unlike their [[VisualNovel/FateStayNight previous]] [[LightNovel/FateZero co-classes]]. Even more hilarious considering that Darnic won the previous Grail War with 'Fionn', as the anime revealed.[[/labelnote]]
to:
** Being Lancer Is Wonderful [[labelnote:Explanation]]Both Lancers are ridiculously powerful and manage to score some impressive feats, unlike their [[VisualNovel/FateStayNight previous]] [[LightNovel/FateZero [[Literature/FateZero co-classes]]. Even more hilarious considering that Darnic won the previous Grail War with 'Fionn', as the anime revealed.[[/labelnote]]
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* OneSceneWonder: Gilles de Rais appearance [[spoiler:as a Saber Servant]] is short-lived, but he doesn't fail to make an impression, bringing back the AxCrazy demeanor of his Caster-self in LightNovel/FateZero, [[spoiler:while also showing his more broken side and willingness to redeem himself, even [[HeroicSacrifice sacrificing himself]] so Jaune can finish her prayer to use her second Noble Phantasm.]]
to:
* OneSceneWonder: Gilles de Rais appearance [[spoiler:as a Saber Servant]] is short-lived, but he doesn't fail to make an impression, bringing back the AxCrazy demeanor of his Caster-self in LightNovel/FateZero, ''Literature/FateZero'', [[spoiler:while also showing his more broken side and willingness to redeem himself, even [[HeroicSacrifice sacrificing himself]] so Jaune can finish her prayer to use her second Noble Phantasm.]]
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In retrospect he doesn't really fit here.
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** Sieg is another entry in the line of Fate main male protagonists who are perceived by some as bland and boring. However, this problem is more prominent with Sieg because of the fact that his character development is simply lacking in comparison to other Fate protagonists such as [[VisualNovel/FateStayNight Shirou Emiya]], [[Literature/FateZero Kiritsugu Emiya]] and [[VideoGame/FateExtra Hakuno Kishinami]], having literally no personality and background at the start. Hakuno and Shirou outgrow their initial blandness to varying degrees in each of their respective stories or are given some manner of justification that is expanded after it is revealed, such as Shirou's SurvivorsGuilt or the surprising twists regarding Hakuno. Kiritsugu is also a firm AntiHero who stands apart from the other protagonists, making him very much a popular character. To put it one way; while all four are basic examples of seemingly bland characters for their medium that do develop over the course of their story, Sieg suffers from having the ''least'' amount of HiddenDepths and development, and thus comes across as lacking.
to:
** Sieg is another entry in the line of Fate main male protagonists who are perceived by some as bland and boring. However, this problem is more prominent with Sieg because of the fact that his character development is simply lacking in comparison to other Fate protagonists such as [[VisualNovel/FateStayNight Shirou Emiya]], [[Literature/FateZero Kiritsugu Emiya]] and [[VideoGame/FateExtra Hakuno Kishinami]], having literally no personality and background at the start. Hakuno and Shirou outgrow their initial blandness to varying degrees in each of their respective stories or are given some manner of justification that is expanded after it is revealed, such as Shirou's SurvivorsGuilt or the surprising twists regarding Hakuno. Kiritsugu is also a firm AntiHero who stands apart from the other protagonists, making him very much a popular character. To put it one way; while all four three are basic examples of seemingly bland characters for their medium that do develop over the course of their story, Sieg suffers from having the ''least'' amount of HiddenDepths and development, and thus comes across as lacking.
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None
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** Frankenstein, who went from TheScrappy to this. She first gained and still has a lot of hate for being a cute female, when Frankenstein's monster's hideous appearance was central to its story. Outside of her design, she's also disliked for how little she factors into the story, as she gets only a few skirmishes and two notable fight scenes with Shirou Kotomine and Mordred to showcase her ability, and then is one of the first Servants to die with very little elaboration on her personality (which is what [[RescuedFromTheScrappyHeap saved Chiron and Achilles]]) and serves no greater purpose in the narrative [[spoiler:aside from saving Sieg's life and giving him some [[CameBackStrong extra power]]]]. The anime attempted to [[AdaptationalExpansion rectify this]] by giving her relationship with Caules more focus, and the reveal that [[TheWoobie she suffered just as much as the original Frankenstein's Monster]] and her DyingMomentOfAwesome against Mordred managed to win her several fans.
to:
** Frankenstein, who went from TheScrappy to this. She first gained and still has a lot of hate for being a cute female, when Frankenstein's monster's hideous appearance was central to its story. Outside of her design, she's also disliked for how little she factors into the story, as she gets only a few skirmishes and two notable fight scenes with Shirou Kotomine and Mordred to showcase her ability, and then is one of the first Servants to die with very little elaboration on her personality (which is what [[RescuedFromTheScrappyHeap saved Chiron and Achilles]]) and serves no greater purpose in the narrative [[spoiler:aside from saving Sieg's life and giving him some [[CameBackStrong extra power]]]]. The anime attempted to [[AdaptationalExpansion [[AdaptationExpansion rectify this]] by giving her relationship with Caules more focus, and the reveal that [[TheWoobie she suffered just as much as the original Frankenstein's Monster]] and her DyingMomentOfAwesome against Mordred managed to win her several fans.
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** Toole, the female homunculus that Sieg saves on the battlefield, started to gain traction in the community particularly once she goes out her way to help Sieg [[spoiler:rescue the other Yggdmillennia homunuculi]]. Her slight resemblance to [[LightNovel/FateZero Maiya Hisau]] might have something to do with it, as well as surviving a battle with Achilles.
to:
** Toole, the female homunculus that Sieg saves on the battlefield, started to gain traction in the community particularly once she goes out her way to help Sieg [[spoiler:rescue the other Yggdmillennia homunuculi]]. Her slight resemblance to [[LightNovel/FateZero [[Literature/FateZero Maiya Hisau]] might have something to do with it, as well as surviving a battle with Achilles.
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** As a tribute to [[LightNovel/FateZero Kayneth "Fast Wheels" El-Melloi]], Fiore got the nickname [[AllLovingHero "Happy Wheels"]].
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** As a tribute to [[LightNovel/FateZero [[Literature/FateZero Kayneth "Fast Wheels" El-Melloi]], Fiore got the nickname [[AllLovingHero "Happy Wheels"]].
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** As good of a premise the Holy Grail War is (a battle royale among seven Master-Servant pairs), it also bears the risk of having too many major characters for effective storytelling. The visual novel ''VisualNovel/FateStayNight'' takes 3 mutually-exclusive routes to fully explore all of its characters through the protagonist's perspective; ''LightNovel/FateZero'' manages to keep a balance on all participants with more focus placed on Kiritsugu and Kirei but not before a 45-minute {{Infodump}} first episode. The cast of ''LightNovel/FateApocrypha'' is overblown with ''two'' teams, ''fourteen'' Servants and ''fourteen'' Masters on both sides plus Ruler plus Sieg. As a consequence, five Masters of Red are just extras, many Servants have as much background story as the Servant you draw from ''VideoGame/FateGrandOrder'' gacha, and the lack of focus on characters is constantly brought up as a criticism on the show.
to:
** As good of a premise the Holy Grail War is (a battle royale among seven Master-Servant pairs), it also bears the risk of having too many major characters for effective storytelling. The visual novel ''VisualNovel/FateStayNight'' takes 3 mutually-exclusive routes to fully explore all of its characters through the protagonist's perspective; ''LightNovel/FateZero'' ''Literature/FateZero'' manages to keep a balance on all participants with more focus placed on Kiritsugu and Kirei but not before a 45-minute {{Infodump}} first episode. The cast of ''LightNovel/FateApocrypha'' ''Literature/FateApocrypha'' is overblown with ''two'' teams, ''fourteen'' Servants and ''fourteen'' Masters on both sides plus Ruler plus Sieg. As a consequence, five Masters of Red are just extras, many Servants have as much background story as the Servant you draw from ''VideoGame/FateGrandOrder'' gacha, and the lack of focus on characters is constantly brought up as a criticism on the show.
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** Sieg is another entry in the line of Fate main male protagonists who are perceived by some as bland and boring. However, this problem is more prominent with Sieg because of the fact that his character development is simply lacking in comparison to other Fate protagonists such as [[VisualNovel/FateStayNight Shirou Emiya]], [[LightNovel/FateZero Kiritsugu Emiya]] and [[VideoGame/FateExtra Hakuno Kishinami]], having literally no personality and background at the start. Hakuno and Shirou outgrow their initial blandness to varying degrees in each of their respective stories or are given some manner of justification that is expanded after it is revealed, such as Shirou's SurvivorsGuilt or the surprising twists regarding Hakuno. Kiritsugu is also a firm AntiHero who stands apart from the other protagonists, making him very much a popular character. To put it one way; while all four are basic examples of seemingly bland characters for their medium that do develop over the course of their story, Sieg suffers from having the ''least'' amount of HiddenDepths and development, and thus comes across as lacking.
to:
** Sieg is another entry in the line of Fate main male protagonists who are perceived by some as bland and boring. However, this problem is more prominent with Sieg because of the fact that his character development is simply lacking in comparison to other Fate protagonists such as [[VisualNovel/FateStayNight Shirou Emiya]], [[LightNovel/FateZero [[Literature/FateZero Kiritsugu Emiya]] and [[VideoGame/FateExtra Hakuno Kishinami]], having literally no personality and background at the start. Hakuno and Shirou outgrow their initial blandness to varying degrees in each of their respective stories or are given some manner of justification that is expanded after it is revealed, such as Shirou's SurvivorsGuilt or the surprising twists regarding Hakuno. Kiritsugu is also a firm AntiHero who stands apart from the other protagonists, making him very much a popular character. To put it one way; while all four are basic examples of seemingly bland characters for their medium that do develop over the course of their story, Sieg suffers from having the ''least'' amount of HiddenDepths and development, and thus comes across as lacking.
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** Creator/YuusukeKobayashi is forced to interact with an EmotionlessGirl, who has a powerful mace and who is inclined to fall into berserker mode. Hmm, have we [[LightNovel/ReZero already seen this somewhere]]?
** For the English Dub, casting Creator/RayChase as Vlad III comes off as this considering [[Anime/MobileSuitGundamIronBloodedOrphans his previous outing]] was that of a man who has ordered deployment of weapons that can [[Main/ImpaledWithExtremePrejudice skewer targets with absolute impunity]].
** For the English Dub, casting Creator/RayChase as Vlad III comes off as this considering [[Anime/MobileSuitGundamIronBloodedOrphans his previous outing]] was that of a man who has ordered deployment of weapons that can [[Main/ImpaledWithExtremePrejudice skewer targets with absolute impunity]].
to:
** Creator/YuusukeKobayashi is forced to interact with an EmotionlessGirl, who has a powerful mace and who is inclined to fall into berserker mode. Hmm, have we [[LightNovel/ReZero [[Literature/ReZero already seen this somewhere]]?
** For the English Dub, casting Creator/RayChase as Vlad III comes off as this considering [[Anime/MobileSuitGundamIronBloodedOrphans his previous outing]] was that of a man who has ordered deployment of weapons that can[[Main/ImpaledWithExtremePrejudice [[ImpaledWithExtremePrejudice skewer targets with absolute impunity]].
** For the English Dub, casting Creator/RayChase as Vlad III comes off as this considering [[Anime/MobileSuitGundamIronBloodedOrphans his previous outing]] was that of a man who has ordered deployment of weapons that can
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** Given that the setting is an alternate universe that changes from the Third Grail War, you would expect the Founding Families of the Grail Wars, the Einzberns, Tohsaka, and Matou, to have a stake in the War or even have some significant usage. It would have been a good way to bring in old favorites like [[Anime/FateZero Kariya Matou]] and [[VisualNovel/FateStayNight Rin Tohsaka]]. However, the events of the story make it so that the Founding Families can't get involved due to time constraints (the Association only has two months to prepare for the course of the War, too little time to get the red tape involving the Founding Families completed, which includes transportation costs and giving them time to prepare successors to their Family Crests in the event of potential death), so instead they need to hire on mercenaries they can afford to lose. This results in the Red faction being filled with five unnamed Masters who have no role what so ever, and two brand new Masters while the Black faction is also new characters. The anime adaption addresses this slightly by showing the outcome of the Third Holy Grail war in a flashback, revealing that [[spoiler: Zouken is [[AmbiguousSituation possibly dead]], while Shirou Kotomine interacted with an Einzbern homunculus who looks nigh-identical to Irisviel and was most likely her predecessor as both the Einzbern Master/Grail vessel when he was summoned into the Grail War.]]
to:
** Given that the setting is an alternate universe that changes from the Third Grail War, you would expect the Founding Families of the Grail Wars, the Einzberns, Tohsaka, and Matou, to have a stake in the War or even have some significant usage. It would have been a good way to bring in old favorites like [[Anime/FateZero [[Literature/FateZero Kariya Matou]] and [[VisualNovel/FateStayNight Rin Tohsaka]]. However, the events of the story make it so that the Founding Families can't get involved due to time constraints (the Association only has two months to prepare for the course of the War, too little time to get the red tape involving the Founding Families completed, which includes transportation costs and giving them time to prepare successors to their Family Crests in the event of potential death), so instead they need to hire on mercenaries they can afford to lose. This results in the Red faction being filled with five unnamed Masters who have no role what so ever, and two brand new Masters while the Black faction is also new characters. The anime adaption addresses this slightly by showing the outcome of the Third Holy Grail war in a flashback, revealing that [[spoiler: Zouken is [[AmbiguousSituation possibly dead]], while Shirou Kotomine interacted with an Einzbern homunculus who looks nigh-identical to Irisviel and was most likely her predecessor as both the Einzbern Master/Grail vessel when he was summoned into the Grail War.]]
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** Taking aside the fact that it's being made by the divisive Creator/A1Pictures, the Apocrypha anime gets hit with this hard when compared to the Creator/{{Ufotable}} anime adaptations of ''LightNovel/FateZero'' and ''VisualNovel/FateStayNight''. Heck, it's even compared to the 2006 FSN anime and 2010 FSN UBW movie by Creator/StudioDEEN which some consider to be still better than the Apocrypha anime. It doesn't help that the story and characters of Apocrypha are considered lacking in comparison to FSN and Zero. It reached the point that several people were bashing ''Nasu himself'' for giving praise to the fight scenes in [[CriticalDissonance Episode 22]], despite the fact that if ''anyone'' would be qualified to judge the series, it would be him.
** The English Dub also has this issue. While the dub isn't bad, it comes after the dubs of the ''LightNovel/FateZero'' and ''Anime/FateStayNightUnlimitedBladeWorks'' dub, both of which are very well received by fans because of how good the voice cast was, with some replacements being certainly debated. Although the dub of ''Apocrypha'' is handled by the same company who did the previously mentioned two, the majority of the voice actors are mostly new, meaning that the voice quality ranges from great for some characters, to either not fitting well, or just outright weird sounding choices.
** The English Dub also has this issue. While the dub isn't bad, it comes after the dubs of the ''LightNovel/FateZero'' and ''Anime/FateStayNightUnlimitedBladeWorks'' dub, both of which are very well received by fans because of how good the voice cast was, with some replacements being certainly debated. Although the dub of ''Apocrypha'' is handled by the same company who did the previously mentioned two, the majority of the voice actors are mostly new, meaning that the voice quality ranges from great for some characters, to either not fitting well, or just outright weird sounding choices.
to:
** Taking aside the fact that it's being made by the divisive Creator/A1Pictures, the Apocrypha anime gets hit with this hard when compared to the Creator/{{Ufotable}} anime adaptations of ''LightNovel/FateZero'' ''Literature/FateZero'' and ''VisualNovel/FateStayNight''. Heck, it's even compared to the 2006 FSN anime and 2010 FSN UBW movie by Creator/StudioDEEN which some consider to be still better than the Apocrypha anime. It doesn't help that the story and characters of Apocrypha are considered lacking in comparison to FSN and Zero. It reached the point that several people were bashing ''Nasu himself'' for giving praise to the fight scenes in [[CriticalDissonance Episode 22]], despite the fact that if ''anyone'' would be qualified to judge the series, it would be him.
** The English Dub also has this issue. While the dub isn't bad, it comes after the dubs of the''LightNovel/FateZero'' ''Literature/FateZero'' and ''Anime/FateStayNightUnlimitedBladeWorks'' dub, both of which are very well received by fans because of how good the voice cast was, with some replacements being certainly debated. Although the dub of ''Apocrypha'' is handled by the same company who did the previously mentioned two, the majority of the voice actors are mostly new, meaning that the voice quality ranges from great for some characters, to either not fitting well, or just outright weird sounding choices.
** The English Dub also has this issue. While the dub isn't bad, it comes after the dubs of the
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None
Changed line(s) 106,111 (click to see context) from:
* MoralEventHorizon:
** Darnic crosses it [[spoiler:when he forces Vlad by Command Seal to [[OneWingedAngel transform into Dracula]] and then [[DemonicPossession forcibly possess him]] after Vlad kills him in retaliation. What pushes this over IDidWhatIHadToDo (since Darnic did it with the express purpose of getting the Greater Grail back and there was no other way they could force their way through to get it and Vlad would have preferred death to transforming) is [[KickTheDog how much pleasure Darnic takes in reveling in the power of Dracula and mocking Vlad for trying to get in the way of his ambition]]]].
** Celenike crosses it as well. [[spoiler: While in the midst of a VillainousBreakdown, she uses her Command Spells to force Astolfo, her Servant, into killing Sieg. Her reason? Astolfo was getting too attached to the homunculus he saved, and she intended to [[KickTheDog make him drown in despair]] him by making him break his code of honor by forcing him to murder an innocent person. She only saw Astolfo as her familiar, meaning in her mind, she owned him and can do what she wants with him, even [[BreakTheCutie break him mentally]]. For that matter, having a master like Celenike is any good natured and honorable Servant's worst nightmare.]]
*** Exclusively in the Light Novel, her first crossing can be seen when she was grumbling on how disobedient Astolfo was for saving Sieg in the first place. A homunculus passed by her torture room, merely being in the wrong place and the wrong time, and when Celenike noticed this, she ordered the homunculus to come inside the room... and [[ForTheEvulz proceeded to gruesomely murder that homunculus because she can.]]
** In the very next episode, Avicebron/Caster of Black crossed it by [[spoiler:sacrificing his own Master Roche to complete his Golem, despite his screams of anguish of being betrayed by his own Servant/professor, which subverts his reasoning to the Red Faction about defecting to them as long as his Master is unharmed, because he'll be the one who does the 'harming' ''personally'', for his own goal of recreating Paradise since he dislikes mankind, and in his own words, it has nothing to do with the Holy Grail at all. So all along, he's on neither side.]] He seals it with his own words, "You have every right to hate me.", and now you see why the normally affable professor is amongst the more amoral characters in both factions. Not only Chiron eventually offs him for this fact, the Throne of Heroes eventually would make sure that [[OnceDoneNeverForgotten he'd never live this act down]], engraving the scene into Avicebron's Saint Graph that after he was summoned in ''VideoGame/FateGrandOrder'', even he agreed that it was very unforgivable and [[MyGreatestFailure shamed himself for even thinking of doing that.]]
** As of Episode 23, Shakespeare using his Noble Phantasm First Folio [[spoiler: to MindRape Jeanne. First, he uses his illusions to create scenarios, like her mother begging her not to go to war, or making her see the dead soldiers blame her for their deaths, but these have no effect on her. That is until the third scenario, where it is pictured almost exactly like the time she was burned at the stake, except, he makes it so its Sieg who gets burned and tells her that this event is her fault. This effects Jeanne visibly, but she doesn't break. The final scenario, where her old friend and comrade in arms, Gilles de Rais shows up, with Seig's severed head, and gives her a massive BreakingSpeech about how she really loves the poor lad, when she is supposed to a love everyone equally as Saint, while slowly transforming into his murderously insane self in the process. By the look of satisfaction on his face, [[TheSociopath Shakespeare]] probably knew the first two scenarios wouldn't work on Jeanne, but did them anyway simply to test her, before moving on to acts three & four to really [[BreakTheCutie break her spirit]].]] Indeed, he likes writing tragedies.
** Darnic crosses it [[spoiler:when he forces Vlad by Command Seal to [[OneWingedAngel transform into Dracula]] and then [[DemonicPossession forcibly possess him]] after Vlad kills him in retaliation. What pushes this over IDidWhatIHadToDo (since Darnic did it with the express purpose of getting the Greater Grail back and there was no other way they could force their way through to get it and Vlad would have preferred death to transforming) is [[KickTheDog how much pleasure Darnic takes in reveling in the power of Dracula and mocking Vlad for trying to get in the way of his ambition]]]].
** Celenike crosses it as well. [[spoiler: While in the midst of a VillainousBreakdown, she uses her Command Spells to force Astolfo, her Servant, into killing Sieg. Her reason? Astolfo was getting too attached to the homunculus he saved, and she intended to [[KickTheDog make him drown in despair]] him by making him break his code of honor by forcing him to murder an innocent person. She only saw Astolfo as her familiar, meaning in her mind, she owned him and can do what she wants with him, even [[BreakTheCutie break him mentally]]. For that matter, having a master like Celenike is any good natured and honorable Servant's worst nightmare.]]
*** Exclusively in the Light Novel, her first crossing can be seen when she was grumbling on how disobedient Astolfo was for saving Sieg in the first place. A homunculus passed by her torture room, merely being in the wrong place and the wrong time, and when Celenike noticed this, she ordered the homunculus to come inside the room... and [[ForTheEvulz proceeded to gruesomely murder that homunculus because she can.]]
** In the very next episode, Avicebron/Caster of Black crossed it by [[spoiler:sacrificing his own Master Roche to complete his Golem, despite his screams of anguish of being betrayed by his own Servant/professor, which subverts his reasoning to the Red Faction about defecting to them as long as his Master is unharmed, because he'll be the one who does the 'harming' ''personally'', for his own goal of recreating Paradise since he dislikes mankind, and in his own words, it has nothing to do with the Holy Grail at all. So all along, he's on neither side.]] He seals it with his own words, "You have every right to hate me.", and now you see why the normally affable professor is amongst the more amoral characters in both factions. Not only Chiron eventually offs him for this fact, the Throne of Heroes eventually would make sure that [[OnceDoneNeverForgotten he'd never live this act down]], engraving the scene into Avicebron's Saint Graph that after he was summoned in ''VideoGame/FateGrandOrder'', even he agreed that it was very unforgivable and [[MyGreatestFailure shamed himself for even thinking of doing that.]]
** As of Episode 23, Shakespeare using his Noble Phantasm First Folio [[spoiler: to MindRape Jeanne. First, he uses his illusions to create scenarios, like her mother begging her not to go to war, or making her see the dead soldiers blame her for their deaths, but these have no effect on her. That is until the third scenario, where it is pictured almost exactly like the time she was burned at the stake, except, he makes it so its Sieg who gets burned and tells her that this event is her fault. This effects Jeanne visibly, but she doesn't break. The final scenario, where her old friend and comrade in arms, Gilles de Rais shows up, with Seig's severed head, and gives her a massive BreakingSpeech about how she really loves the poor lad, when she is supposed to a love everyone equally as Saint, while slowly transforming into his murderously insane self in the process. By the look of satisfaction on his face, [[TheSociopath Shakespeare]] probably knew the first two scenarios wouldn't work on Jeanne, but did them anyway simply to test her, before moving on to acts three & four to really [[BreakTheCutie break her spirit]].]] Indeed, he likes writing tragedies.
to:
* MoralEventHorizon:
** Darnic crosses it [[spoiler:when he forces Vlad by Command Seal to [[OneWingedAngel transform into Dracula]] and then [[DemonicPossession forcibly possess him]] after Vlad kills him in retaliation. What pushes this over IDidWhatIHadToDo (since Darnic did it with the express purpose of getting the Greater Grail back and there was no other way they could force their way through to get it and Vlad would have preferred death to transforming) is [[KickTheDog how much pleasure Darnic takes in reveling in the power of Dracula and mocking Vlad for trying to get in the way of his ambition]]]].
** Celenike crosses it as well. [[spoiler: While in the midst of a VillainousBreakdown, she uses her Command Spells to force Astolfo, her Servant, into killing Sieg. Her reason? Astolfo was getting too attached to the homunculus he saved, and she intended to [[KickTheDog make him drown in despair]] him by making him break his code of honor by forcing him to murder an innocent person. She only saw Astolfo as her familiar, meaning in her mind, she owned him and can do what she wants with him, even [[BreakTheCutie break him mentally]]. For that matter, having a master like Celenike is any good natured and honorable Servant's worst nightmare.]]
*** Exclusively in the Light Novel, her first crossing can be seen when she was grumbling on how disobedient Astolfo was for saving Sieg in the first place. A homunculus passed by her torture room, merely being in the wrong place and the wrong time, and when Celenike noticed this, she ordered the homunculus to come inside the room... and [[ForTheEvulz proceeded to gruesomely murder that homunculus because she can.]]
** In the very next episode, Avicebron/Caster of Black crossed it by [[spoiler:sacrificing his own Master Roche to complete his Golem, despite his screams of anguish of being betrayed by his own Servant/professor, which subverts his reasoning to the Red Faction about defecting to them as long as his Master is unharmed, because he'll be the one who does the 'harming' ''personally'', for his own goal of recreating Paradise since he dislikes mankind, and in his own words, it has nothing to do with the Holy Grail at all. So all along, he's on neither side.]] He seals it with his own words, "You have every right to hate me.", and now you see why the normally affable professor is amongst the more amoral characters in both factions. Not only Chiron eventually offs him for this fact, the Throne of Heroes eventually would make sure that [[OnceDoneNeverForgotten he'd never live this act down]], engraving the scene into Avicebron's Saint Graph that after he was summoned in ''VideoGame/FateGrandOrder'', even he agreed that it was very unforgivable and [[MyGreatestFailure shamed himself for even thinking of doing that.]]
** As of Episode 23, Shakespeare using his Noble Phantasm First Folio [[spoiler: to MindRape Jeanne. First, he uses his illusions to create scenarios, like her mother begging her not to go to war, or making her see the dead soldiers blame her for their deaths, but these have no effect on her. That is until the third scenario, where it is pictured almost exactly like the time she was burned at the stake, except, he makes it so its Sieg who gets burned and tells her that this event is her fault. This effects Jeanne visibly, but she doesn't break. The final scenario, where her old friend and comrade in arms, Gilles de Rais shows up, with Seig's severed head, and gives her a massive BreakingSpeech about how she really loves the poor lad, when she is supposed to a love everyone equally as Saint, while slowly transforming into his murderously insane self in the process. By the look of satisfaction on his face, [[TheSociopath Shakespeare]] probably knew the first two scenarios wouldn't work on Jeanne, but did them anyway simply to test her, before moving on to acts three & four to really [[BreakTheCutie break her spirit]].]] Indeed, he likes writing tragedies.MoralEventHorizon: See [[MoralEventHorizon/{{Nasuverse}} here]].
** Darnic crosses it [[spoiler:when he forces Vlad by Command Seal to [[OneWingedAngel transform into Dracula]] and then [[DemonicPossession forcibly possess him]] after Vlad kills him in retaliation. What pushes this over IDidWhatIHadToDo (since Darnic did it with the express purpose of getting the Greater Grail back and there was no other way they could force their way through to get it and Vlad would have preferred death to transforming) is [[KickTheDog how much pleasure Darnic takes in reveling in the power of Dracula and mocking Vlad for trying to get in the way of his ambition]]]].
** Celenike crosses it as well. [[spoiler: While in the midst of a VillainousBreakdown, she uses her Command Spells to force Astolfo, her Servant, into killing Sieg. Her reason? Astolfo was getting too attached to the homunculus he saved, and she intended to [[KickTheDog make him drown in despair]] him by making him break his code of honor by forcing him to murder an innocent person. She only saw Astolfo as her familiar, meaning in her mind, she owned him and can do what she wants with him, even [[BreakTheCutie break him mentally]]. For that matter, having a master like Celenike is any good natured and honorable Servant's worst nightmare.]]
*** Exclusively in the Light Novel, her first crossing can be seen when she was grumbling on how disobedient Astolfo was for saving Sieg in the first place. A homunculus passed by her torture room, merely being in the wrong place and the wrong time, and when Celenike noticed this, she ordered the homunculus to come inside the room... and [[ForTheEvulz proceeded to gruesomely murder that homunculus because she can.]]
** In the very next episode, Avicebron/Caster of Black crossed it by [[spoiler:sacrificing his own Master Roche to complete his Golem, despite his screams of anguish of being betrayed by his own Servant/professor, which subverts his reasoning to the Red Faction about defecting to them as long as his Master is unharmed, because he'll be the one who does the 'harming' ''personally'', for his own goal of recreating Paradise since he dislikes mankind, and in his own words, it has nothing to do with the Holy Grail at all. So all along, he's on neither side.]] He seals it with his own words, "You have every right to hate me.", and now you see why the normally affable professor is amongst the more amoral characters in both factions. Not only Chiron eventually offs him for this fact, the Throne of Heroes eventually would make sure that [[OnceDoneNeverForgotten he'd never live this act down]], engraving the scene into Avicebron's Saint Graph that after he was summoned in ''VideoGame/FateGrandOrder'', even he agreed that it was very unforgivable and [[MyGreatestFailure shamed himself for even thinking of doing that.]]
** As of Episode 23, Shakespeare using his Noble Phantasm First Folio [[spoiler: to MindRape Jeanne. First, he uses his illusions to create scenarios, like her mother begging her not to go to war, or making her see the dead soldiers blame her for their deaths, but these have no effect on her. That is until the third scenario, where it is pictured almost exactly like the time she was burned at the stake, except, he makes it so its Sieg who gets burned and tells her that this event is her fault. This effects Jeanne visibly, but she doesn't break. The final scenario, where her old friend and comrade in arms, Gilles de Rais shows up, with Seig's severed head, and gives her a massive BreakingSpeech about how she really loves the poor lad, when she is supposed to a love everyone equally as Saint, while slowly transforming into his murderously insane self in the process. By the look of satisfaction on his face, [[TheSociopath Shakespeare]] probably knew the first two scenarios wouldn't work on Jeanne, but did them anyway simply to test her, before moving on to acts three & four to really [[BreakTheCutie break her spirit]].]] Indeed, he likes writing tragedies.
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** Celenike takes this to a weird level: She's one of the sexiest woman in the show... [[FlatCharacter and that's all she ever had going for fans to take note of 'positive' point, the rest of her traits are one-dimensional, pure, undiluted evil.]]
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** Celenike takes this to a weird level: She's is one of the sexiest woman women in the show... [[FlatCharacter show, but unlike Reika and that's all Semiramis, she ever had going for fans to take note of 'positive' point, the rest of her traits are one-dimensional, pure, undiluted evil.]] is utterly sociopathic and singularly horrific, even rivaling [[VisualNovel/FateStayNight Zouken and Shinji Matou]] in straight up monstrosity.
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* CompleteMonster: [[WickedWitch Celenike Icecolle Yggdmillennia]], amongst the morally ambiguous [[Characters/FateApocryphaBlackFaction Yggdmillennia family]], is the [[BitchInSheepsClothing only one who absolutely has no moral compass]]. Celenike practices blood magic, sacrificing innocents, including children, which she takes great pleasure in. A sadistic dominatrix, Celenike keeps a [[TortureCellar dungeon]] in her spare time where she tortures those who cross her, or just those who catch her fancy for the fun of it. In between missions, Celenike will very regularly torture, [[RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil rape]] and murder attractive young men, especially homunculi she deems "useless". Celenike also becomes fixated on her Servant Astolfo. After becoming jealous that he is forming a bond with Sieg, a homunculus who has formed an identity, Celenike snaps and uses her Command Seals to force Astolfo to gruesomely murder Sieg just to break Astolfo. Unlike her other family members and many other antagonists from the franchise, Celenike is motivated by nothing more than cruel lust and unrestrained sadism.
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* CompleteMonster: [[WickedWitch Celenike Icecolle Yggdmillennia]], amongst the morally ambiguous [[Characters/FateApocryphaBlackFaction Yggdmillennia family]], is the [[BitchInSheepsClothing only one who absolutely has no moral compass]]. Celenike practices blood magic, sacrificing innocents, including children, which she takes great pleasure in. A sadistic dominatrix, Celenike keeps a [[TortureCellar dungeon]] in her spare time where she tortures those who cross her, or just those who catch her fancy for the fun of it. In between missions, Celenike will very regularly torture, [[RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil rape]] and murder attractive young men, especially homunculi she deems "useless". Celenike also becomes fixated on her Servant Astolfo. After becoming jealous that he is forming a bond with Sieg, a homunculus who has formed an identity, Celenike snaps and uses her Command Seals to force Astolfo to gruesomely murder Sieg just to break Astolfo.Astolfo, something that is only stopped when Mordred, fed up with Celenike's shit, [[OffWithHisHead takes her head]]. Unlike her other family members and many other antagonists from the franchise, Celenike is motivated by nothing more than cruel lust and unrestrained sadism.
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* AlternateCharacterInterpretation:
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** Artoria during Mordred's flashback. Did the former really not hate Mordred for who she was or did Artoria simply lie about how she felt as part of her Perfect King persona? Apocrypha fans who have never seen ''VisualNovel/FateStayNight'' or ''LightNovel/FateZero'' before would likely be unable to tell. ''VideoGame/FateGrandOrder'' seems to imply the latter interpretation is true, as during its first summer event Artoria was passive aggressive with Mordred at best, hostile at worst, but that's ambiguous due to the event in question having the Servant's various quirks and relationships PlayedForLaughs (such as also portraying Artoria's BigEater tendencies to a comical degree).
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** Artoria during Mordred's flashback. Did the former really not hate Mordred for who she was or did Artoria simply lie about how she felt as part of her Perfect King persona? Apocrypha fans who have never seen ''VisualNovel/FateStayNight'' or ''LightNovel/FateZero'' ''Literature/FateZero'' before would likely be unable to tell. ''VideoGame/FateGrandOrder'' seems to imply the latter interpretation is true, as during its first summer event Artoria was passive aggressive with Mordred at best, hostile at worst, but that's ambiguous due to the event in question having the Servant's various quirks and relationships PlayedForLaughs (such as also portraying Artoria's BigEater tendencies to a comical degree).
