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* On a similar note as above, but for different reasons altogether, I give you Allen Higgins and Genevieve Chin. Those two poor sobs can't seem to catch a break, it'd be nice to actually see something going right for both of them.
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* On a similar note as above, but for different reasons altogether, I give this troper gives you Allen Higgins and Genevieve Chin. Those two poor sobs can't seem to catch a break, it'd be nice to actually see something going right for both of them.
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* Lester Tourville and Michelle Henke, cowboy admirals extraordinaire. The Queen of Manticore's first cousin (and Honor's best friend) hooking up with Haven's senior serving admiral? Talk about a political bonanza! And ''Shadow of Victory'' doesn't exactly discourage the possibility...
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* Lester Tourville and Michelle Henke, cowboy admirals extraordinaire. The Queen of Manticore's first cousin (and Honor's best friend) hooking up with Haven's senior serving admiral? Talk about a political bonanza! And ''Shadow of Victory'' doesn't exactly discourage the possibility...
possibility... And the whole 'same chain of command' doesn't even apply
* On a similar note as above, but for different reasons altogether, I give you Allen Higgins and Genevieve Chin. Those two poor sobs can't seem to catch a break, it'd be nice to actually see something going right for both of them.
* On a similar note as above, but for different reasons altogether, I give you Allen Higgins and Genevieve Chin. Those two poor sobs can't seem to catch a break, it'd be nice to actually see something going right for both of them.
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* Lester Tourville and Michelle Henke, cowboy admirals extraordinaire. The Queen of Manticore's first cousin (and Honor's best friend) hooking up with Haven's senior serving admiral? Talk about a political bonanza! And ''Shadow of Victory'' doesn't exactly discourage the possibility...
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[[WMG:Dicey will try to cut in on a conference on Henke's ship, and find himself face-to-face with Nimitz.]]
* The ensuing scene will then appear on the Funny Moments page.
* The ensuing scene will then appear on the Funny Moments page.
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[[WMG:Honor's charisma is partly due to her empath abilities...and she's not the only one.]]
* At several points in the series, people remark on Honor's uncanny leadership abilities, and Honor herself constantly works on projecting an aura of competence and calm in a crisis. What if she's ''actually'' (subconsciously) projecting something? Something that subtly influences people around her? And what would that mean for other characters said to have intense charisma...like, for example, Esther [=McQueen=]? Her effect on those around her is almost supernatural, isn't it?
* At several points in the series, people remark on Honor's uncanny leadership abilities, and Honor herself constantly works on projecting an aura of competence and calm in a crisis. What if she's ''actually'' (subconsciously) projecting something? Something that subtly influences people around her? And what would that mean for other characters said to have intense charisma...like, for example, Esther [=McQueen=]? Her effect on those around her is almost supernatural, isn't it?
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Shadow of victory stuff
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* Jossed by Shadow of Victory. [[spoiler: Albrecht nukes himself, his wife, and every other Mesan Alignment operative still on Mesa when Mike Henke captures Mesa.]]
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* As of the end of Shadow of Victory [[spoiler: Albrecht nuked every Mesan Alignment operative still on Mesa, including himself and his wife, when Mike entered orbit. They're really everything they can not to leave any strings to follow.]]
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* As of the end of Shadow of Victory, [[spoiler: Albrecht nuked all of the Mesan Alignment operatives that were still on Mesa when Mike entered orbit, including himself and his wife. Their pet newsy, Audrey O'Hanrahan, is busy going "Hmm, I wonder who set let off all those nukes".]]
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* Shadow of Victory tells us [[spoiler: Firebrand has been equipped with some of the MA's nanotech tricks, including their killswitch. He's also been captured by Manticore, but unless they clue in to the killswitch rapidly and figure out some way to deactivate it, he's gonna die shortly.]]
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[[WMG:All those dead Beowulfan civilians mentioned above? Audrey O'Hanrahan will be a witness to whatever kills them.]]
Tell me an investigative reporter of her stature ''won't'' be covering the Beowulf plebiscite. According to ''A Rising Thunder'', the Mandarins are planning to send a fleet to Beowulf before the vote. Reading between the lines of their doublespeak, the fleet will be under orders to make sure the vote either doesn't take place or is held after the planet goes under Solarian martial law (in which case it's a fake vote begging the League to let them stay). This is clearly the trigger for the battle that results, either via Eridani violation or some other means, in the 10 million dead civvies.
Given O'Hanrahan's reputation, if she says the Solarian commander screwed up people will believe her. My only question is whether her superiors will let her cover the story accurately or if they'll demand she slant her coverage.
Tell me an investigative reporter of her stature ''won't'' be covering the Beowulf plebiscite. According to ''A Rising Thunder'', the Mandarins are planning to send a fleet to Beowulf before the vote. Reading between the lines of their doublespeak, the fleet will be under orders to make sure the vote either doesn't take place or is held after the planet goes under Solarian martial law (in which case it's a fake vote begging the League to let them stay). This is clearly the trigger for the battle that results, either via Eridani violation or some other means, in the 10 million dead civvies.
Given O'Hanrahan's reputation, if she says the Solarian commander screwed up people will believe her. My only question is whether her superiors will let her cover the story accurately or if they'll demand she slant her coverage.
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*** [[MahouSenseiNegima Death by a thousand cats!]]
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*** [[MahouSenseiNegima [[Manga/MahouSenseiNegima Death by a thousand cats!]]
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* The Grand Duchy of Melungeon is to the South of the League, and has bought at least one Havenite Surplus ship
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** I would much rather see a Hacking/MMA variant of Chess-Boxing between Zilwicki and Harkness
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* As mentioned above in the section on Beowulf, [[WordOfGod has it - albeit with no details so far - that something devastating is going to happen in the Battle of Beowulf that will result in no fewer than 10 million civilian deaths. It's anyone guess whether that'll be an Edict violation or something else.]]
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* As mentioned above in the section on Beowulf, [[WordOfGod [[spoiler:WordOfGod has it - albeit with no details so far - that something devastating is going to happen in the Battle of Beowulf that will result in no fewer than 10 million civilian deaths. It's anyone guess whether that'll be an Edict violation or something else.]]
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* As mentioned above in the section on Beowulf, [[WordOfGod has it - albeit with no details so far - that something devastating is going to happen in the Battle of Beowulf that will result in no fewer than 10 million civilian deaths. It's anyone guess whether that'll be an Edict violation or something else.]]
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comments on whether the Solarian League can in fact do anything such as occupy Manticore (answer: no)
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* Pretty thoroughly {{Jossed}} by the events of the last few books. [[spoiler:As of the end of ''A Rising Thunder'', Rajampet, having reached the end of his usefulness to the Alignment, has shot himself with the assistance of nanotech, the so-called flower of the SLN has been conclusively defeated at Manticore, there's no realistic expectation that the upcoming battle of Beowulf is going to turn out any differently, and the League's leadership - with help from Alignment deep-cover agents - is turning to the more "realistic" strategy of commerce and infrastructure raiding, which might actually work if Manticore and Haven hadn't been practicing that exact same form of warfare against each other for the past two decades and knew all the tricks and what to look for. Moreover, Beowulf is on the point of seceding from the League, several systems sympathetic to it are ready to follow, and the Renaissance Factor is gearing up in the wings. Long story short, the Solarian League is very shortly going to be in no condition to occupy Manticore or anywhere else. Particularly not when the Alignment's real target all along has been the League; weakening Manticore was only a means to an end.]]
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* However it works out, it's a lead-pipe cinch that we haven't seen the last of Montana's answer to John Wayne. Westman has a ''big'' bone to pick with the Mesan Alignment over the way he was conned into being their catspaw, so you can count on him doing something to get his own (and his world's) back.
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comments on what might happen after Cauldron of Ghosts
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* As of the end of Cauldron of Ghosts, [[spoiler: Mike's arrival has forced the surrender of Mesa, saving Victor, Thandi, and Co. in the process. Houdini has already gotten all of the Alignment's personnel out. Anton has figured out the existence of Houdini and arrived back in Manticore with that knowledge, but has no idea where Houdini took them. Though that will change if and when somebody puts two and two together and gets a hunch as to what actually happened to the Harvest Joy.]]
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* As of the end of Cauldron of Ghosts, [[spoiler: Mike's arrival has forced the surrender of Mesa, saving Victor, Thandi, and Co. in the process. Houdini has already gotten all of the Alignment's personnel out. Anton has figured out the existence of Houdini and arrived back in Manticore with that knowledge, but has no idea where Houdini took them. Though that will change if and when somebody puts two and two together and gets a hunch as to what actually happened to the Harvest Joy. If somebody decides to take a hard second look at the bloody incident in which Zach Mac Bryde's liner was almost captured by the Royal Torch Navy, that is likely to set the bloodhounds on the trail as well.]]
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added remarks on the Renaissance Factor and what might be likely to happen next at Beowulf, also clarification on where the wormhole leading to the Alignment\'s secret homeworld is located
** Also, it's heavily implied (if not outright stated) in 'Mission of Honor' that the leaders of the Renaissance Factor, who are all described as being exceptionally accomplished people in various arts and sciences as well as responsible, intelligent, liberal-minded political leaders, are among the most highly regarded public figures in the Solarian League. It's entirely possible that when the Factor first makes its appearance, many people in Manticore and Haven will take it at face value as an effort by the League's real best and brightest to bring something worthwhile out of the destruction and chaos, particularly if they position themselves in utter opposition to the former regime.
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* [[spoiler:WordOfGod on the Weber discussion forums has it that the next mainline novel will feature a devastating battle between the SLN and the BSDF/RMN in the Beowulf system, and that ''something'' will happen that will result in 10 million Beowulfan civilian fatalities. The current speculation has the cause as either being an accidental or deliberate Eridani Edict violation by the SLN, or else a repeat of Oyster Bay by the Mesan Alignment Navy.]]
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* Don't forget that the wormhole, which the ''Harvest Joy'' was destroyed studying, is ''heavily'' implied to lead to the secret Alignment homeworld. That's probably a major ChekhovsGun.
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* Don't forget that the wormhole, wormhole at Torch, which the ''Harvest Joy'' was destroyed studying, is ''heavily'' implied to lead to the secret Alignment homeworld.homeworld [[spoiler:and is defended in force by the navy of one of the star nations belonging to the Alignment-controlled Renaissance Factor; this may be why the most recent available maps of the Honorverse don't show where the Factor systems are located]]. That's probably a major ChekhovsGun.
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* They both have been shown to be extraordinarily skilled in hand to hand, and to enjoy high contact sparring matches. The fight will probably end inconclusively, (or in a close match and a friendly request for a rematch sometime,) to preserve both character's Badass status.
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[[WMG:Eventually, we will have a sparring match between Honor Harrington and Thandi Palane. The Amazons will be MOST impressed.]]
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*** Slight correction here. There are NO other signatories to the Eridani Edict. It was never a multi-national treaty, it was a unilateral statement by the Solarian League that it would come after anyone who violated it. Now people like Manticore and Haven will still enforce the same rules because they don't like people who massacre civilians either but there's no treaty requiring or authorizing them to do so, like the Solarian League any actions they take would be because they decided to take them.
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Because Montana is the kind of place that ''needs'' to have CloserToEarth {{NativeAmericans natives}} that use SignLanguage. Even if they have to import them.
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Because Montana is the kind of place that ''needs'' to have CloserToEarth {{NativeAmericans natives}} [[UsefulNotes/NativeAmericans natives]] that use SignLanguage.UsefulNotes/SignLanguage. Even if they have to import them.
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[[WMG:Steve Westman will invite a clan of treecats to settle on Montana.]]
Because Montana is the kind of place that ''needs'' to have CloserToEarth {{NativeAmericans natives}} that use SignLanguage. Even if they have to import them.
Because Montana is the kind of place that ''needs'' to have CloserToEarth {{NativeAmericans natives}} that use SignLanguage. Even if they have to import them.
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[[WMG:Future ship names]]
* Inevitably, Hemphill and Foraker will design a new class of SD(P) that will incorporate the streak drive and possibly other advances. The first Manticoran ship of the class will be HMS ''Javier Giscard''. After Pritchard stops crying, she will reciprocate by naming the first Havenite ship of the class RHNS ''Sebastian D'Orville''.
* There will be a ship named ''Francesca Simoes''. Because what better to symbolize the evil of the Alignment than an innocent girl casually killed because she didn't fit into their grand plan, reincarnated as a pod-laying superdreadnought? I could actually see it being a Beowulfer ship.
* The Manticorans will start using treecat names for their ships. HMS ''Death Fang's Bane'', anyone? Or HMS ''Darkness Foe''?
* Torch will have a ''Dancer'' class.
* Inevitably, Hemphill and Foraker will design a new class of SD(P) that will incorporate the streak drive and possibly other advances. The first Manticoran ship of the class will be HMS ''Javier Giscard''. After Pritchard stops crying, she will reciprocate by naming the first Havenite ship of the class RHNS ''Sebastian D'Orville''.
* There will be a ship named ''Francesca Simoes''. Because what better to symbolize the evil of the Alignment than an innocent girl casually killed because she didn't fit into their grand plan, reincarnated as a pod-laying superdreadnought? I could actually see it being a Beowulfer ship.
* The Manticorans will start using treecat names for their ships. HMS ''Death Fang's Bane'', anyone? Or HMS ''Darkness Foe''?
* Torch will have a ''Dancer'' class.
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* Firebrand changing sides is definitely possible, him specifically being said to follow the best game in town — which would've been the Grand Alliance nowadays, but whether he's been briefed on ''Houdini'' and Darius is an another matter entirely. being an independent operator he probably isn't, though his knowledge of Alignment's network in the area is definitely a juicy tidbit anyway.
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* [[spoiler: Confirmed ''and'' Jossed. Neither are adopted and bonded, but the treecats decide to work as a bodyguards for important human allies as a way of becoming partners in the war against those who killed the Black Rock Clan. Theisman, Pritchart, and Tourville all get non-bonded companions who match their personalities well -- Springs from Above, Sharp Claw, and Lurks in Branches.]]
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* [[spoiler: Confirmed ''and'' Jossed. Neither are adopted and bonded, but the treecats decide to work as a bodyguards for important human allies as a way of becoming partners in the war against those who killed the Black Rock Clan. Theisman, Pritchart, and Tourville all get non-bonded companions who match their personalities well -- Springs from Above, Sharp Claw, and Lurks in Branches.]]]] (Note, however, that the above in no way precludes any or all of these characters from getting adopted later on.)
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**** On the point of it taking a rather unorthodox mind and a great deal of luck... Didn't you just mention that Kevin Usher was a movie buff? Y'know, the guy in charge of Haven's internal security? And one of Pritchart's most trusted advisors? For that matter, I seem to recall Victor Cachat having picked up the hobby off of Usher, and Honor herself having atleast a passing interest in it (she set up a movie festival on Grayson at one point). I find it highly unlikely that once the RF turns up, ''one'' of that lot won't notice, especially if they (as suggested elsewhere) sign up with the Grand Alliance.
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[[WMG:Damien "Firebrand" Harahap is going to change sides...]]
...or at least cooperate with Manticore to save his own skin.
He is a pure mercenary. He had no loyalty to his original employers at OFS, he has no loyalty to ''Mesa'' beyond that they're paying him. And once he realizes just how badly his FalseFlagOperation has blown up on him (see the whole plot of ''Shadow of Freedom'' for details), he'll also figure that his mesan handlers are likely to want him eliminated. He almost certainly isn't aware that the Manties sending actual aid to the rebels he's set up to fail isn't actually as disastrous to the mesan long-term plans as it appears...from his point of view, it's a complete charlie foxtrot and the only way for him to get out alive is to align himself with the one force likely to be able to keep mesan black ops from offing him...Manticore.
And he'd also likely figure that he can offer them enough information to at least buy his continued survival despite that little "misunderstanding" he was part of in the Talbott Cluster.
So what can he offer? Well, a significant chunk of the mesan black-ops transportation and communications network in the region. Possibly including ''ships and conduits that were used in Houdini''. Which might just be enough for him to pull off a [[KarmaHoudini Houdini]] of his own...
...or at least cooperate with Manticore to save his own skin.
He is a pure mercenary. He had no loyalty to his original employers at OFS, he has no loyalty to ''Mesa'' beyond that they're paying him. And once he realizes just how badly his FalseFlagOperation has blown up on him (see the whole plot of ''Shadow of Freedom'' for details), he'll also figure that his mesan handlers are likely to want him eliminated. He almost certainly isn't aware that the Manties sending actual aid to the rebels he's set up to fail isn't actually as disastrous to the mesan long-term plans as it appears...from his point of view, it's a complete charlie foxtrot and the only way for him to get out alive is to align himself with the one force likely to be able to keep mesan black ops from offing him...Manticore.
And he'd also likely figure that he can offer them enough information to at least buy his continued survival despite that little "misunderstanding" he was part of in the Talbott Cluster.
So what can he offer? Well, a significant chunk of the mesan black-ops transportation and communications network in the region. Possibly including ''ships and conduits that were used in Houdini''. Which might just be enough for him to pull off a [[KarmaHoudini Houdini]] of his own...
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[[WMG: The Manticoran Eighth Fleet is a ShoutOut to the [[WorldWarII USAAF's Eighth Air Force]]]].
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[[WMG: The Manticoran Eighth Fleet is a ShoutOut to the [[WorldWarII [[UsefulNotes/WorldWarII USAAF's Eighth Air Force]]]].
Changed line(s) 290,291 (click to see context) from:
Take a look at any decent map of the Honorverse. Notice what is at the bottom? Earth and the Solarian League. But WordOfGod and common sense say that the whole of the Honorverse is larger than that. There are no doubt several major regional powers on the far side of the Solarian League, probably with their own feuds and reasons to fight. I don't think there have been any major wars over there, otherwise we'd have heard about them, but maybe nobody's bothered to mention the ColdWar (and accompanying LensmanArmsRace) between the Ambrosian Union and the Commonwealth of Typhon. And if they haven't been actively fighting, nobody might have realized that the Ambries and the Typhies have independently developed some of the same tech as Manticore and Haven... and some of the tech they haven't. Think about all the advancements the United States and the Soviet Union made in naval technology during the ColdWar.
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Take a look at any decent map of the Honorverse. Notice what is at the bottom? Earth and the Solarian League. But WordOfGod and common sense say that the whole of the Honorverse is larger than that. There are no doubt several major regional powers on the far side of the Solarian League, probably with their own feuds and reasons to fight. I don't think there have been any major wars over there, otherwise we'd have heard about them, but maybe nobody's bothered to mention the ColdWar UsefulNotes/ColdWar (and accompanying LensmanArmsRace) between the Ambrosian Union and the Commonwealth of Typhon. And if they haven't been actively fighting, nobody might have realized that the Ambries and the Typhies have independently developed some of the same tech as Manticore and Haven... and some of the tech they haven't. Think about all the advancements the United States and the Soviet Union made in naval technology during the ColdWar.
UsefulNotes/ColdWar.
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* Space Ghurkas/Maoris perhaps?
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** Seriously? The Alignment's biggest strength is that they're running one of the longest games in fiction outside {{Dune}}. It's very hard to detect an agent who is in place decades or more before they're tasked with doing ''anything.'' The biggest stumbling block, admittedly, is the problem of skirting the line between having kids that come across as Draco Malfoy vs. having the kids swallow the opposition's dogma.
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** Seriously? The Alignment's biggest strength is that they're running one of the longest games in fiction outside {{Dune}}.Franchise/{{Dune}}. It's very hard to detect an agent who is in place decades or more before they're tasked with doing ''anything.'' The biggest stumbling block, admittedly, is the problem of skirting the line between having kids that come across as Draco Malfoy vs. having the kids swallow the opposition's dogma.
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* As of ''Shadow of Freedom'', it's clear that the Solarians don't think the Edict applies to police actions, getting their puppet governments in the Verge to request their support in putting down rebellions, and then proceeding to do so with orbital kinetic strikes. And then in ''Cauldron of Ghosts'', Mesa's governing board comes to the conclusion that the Eridani Edict does not apply at all to a planetary government attacking their ''own'' population with orbital strikes.
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* As of ''Shadow of Freedom'', it's clear that the Solarians don't think the Edict applies to police actions, getting their puppet governments in the Verge to request their support in putting down rebellions, and then proceeding to do so with orbital kinetic strikes. And then in ''Cauldron of Ghosts'', Mesa's governing board comes to the conclusion that the Eridani Edict does not apply at all to a planetary government attacking their ''own'' population with orbital strikes.
strikes.
** Actually it's not so much that the edict doesn't apply to police actions as the edict doesn't apply to military targets. The edict is actually pretty limited in scope, it basically says that you are not allowed to use WMDs indiscriminately against civilian targets. It's perfectly acceptable to use them against military targets and if doing so inflicts civilian casualties then that's the fault of the defender for parking his military near to civilians (so long as the attacker made a reasonable effort to minimize the effect of the strike outside the immediate military area. So in the case of a rebellion a town that is occupied by rebel military a forces is arguably a legitimate military target under the edict. Obviously attacking it with a WMD is still a really awful thing to do but it's not specifically a violation of the edict.
** Actually it's not so much that the edict doesn't apply to police actions as the edict doesn't apply to military targets. The edict is actually pretty limited in scope, it basically says that you are not allowed to use WMDs indiscriminately against civilian targets. It's perfectly acceptable to use them against military targets and if doing so inflicts civilian casualties then that's the fault of the defender for parking his military near to civilians (so long as the attacker made a reasonable effort to minimize the effect of the strike outside the immediate military area. So in the case of a rebellion a town that is occupied by rebel military a forces is arguably a legitimate military target under the edict. Obviously attacking it with a WMD is still a really awful thing to do but it's not specifically a violation of the edict.
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* By all appearances, the Spider Drive is a literary metaphor for submarines. Compare the CLAC and LAC, which are parallels for aircraft carriers and torpedo/gunboats, respectively. Submarines gave surface warfare (and merchant) sailors fits throughout the first half of the 20th century, and have only been relatively quiet since then due to the lack of major naval wars since then. Presumably some technique will be discovered allowing them to detect Spider drives in use, but will have a relatively limited range or accuracy, requiring picket ships to be almost on top of them (in Weberverse terms at least) before they can pin them down and engage them.
