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** The shinma ''don't work like that''. They define something by being its opposite, like Nirguna who defines existence by not existing. So a shinma of 'things can cease to exist'(which is what a 'Shinma of Annihilation' would be) would define ceasing to exist by being impossible to make cease to exist. Oblivion may be an ''aspect'' of said Shinma, just as Nishkriya's aspects are weapons, but it can't be a shinma of annihilation.
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The Shinma are basically physical laws of overarching concepts that define The World of Exalted. Before the Exalted slew the Primordials, nothing was ever destroyed. When they did, the Slain Primordials became a paradox. They're essence couldn't be reabsorbed into Lethe, as that was designed for specifically for Creation's mortals. They couldn't be reabsorbed into the Wyld, because they were in Creation or Yu-Shan. So a new Shinma was introduced so the laws that govern The World of Exalted would still fit the reality. Perhaps the Shinma of sparation recognized Destruction then.

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The Shinma are basically physical laws of overarching concepts that define The World of Exalted. Before the Exalted slew the Primordials, nothing was ever destroyed. When they did, the Slain Primordials became a paradox. They're essence couldn't be reabsorbed into Lethe, as that was designed for specifically for Creation's mortals. They couldn't be reabsorbed into the Wyld, because they were in Creation or Yu-Shan. So a new Shinma was introduced so the laws that govern The World of Exalted would still fit the reality. Perhaps the Shinma of sparation recognized Destruction then.then.
[[WMG: They will make an Exalted videogame]]
That would be fucking awesome
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The Heart soul is the soul that defines a primordial. It makes them what they are. They have power, but can't act without it. The Dragon's Shadow was so heartless that he literally had no heart. So he had nigh-unimaginable power, but no ability to express it. So, like any other primordial would he fashioned a heart for himself. There is no shadow without light to cast it, and there is no villany without good to contrast with it. Just as the Dragon embodies darkness, villainy, and failure so the UCS must embody light, heroism, and perfection. The Unconquered sun defines the Dragon through contrast.

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The Heart soul is the soul that defines a primordial. It makes them what they are. They have power, but can't act without it. The Dragon's Shadow was so heartless that he literally had no heart. So he had nigh-unimaginable power, but no ability to express it. So, like any other primordial would he fashioned a heart for himself. There is no shadow without light to cast it, and there is no villany without good to contrast with it. Just as the Dragon embodies darkness, villainy, and failure so the UCS must embody light, heroism, and perfection. The Unconquered sun defines the Dragon through contrast.contrast.
[[WMG: The Well of the Void is the Shinma of Annihilation]]
The Shinma are basically physical laws of overarching concepts that define The World of Exalted. Before the Exalted slew the Primordials, nothing was ever destroyed. When they did, the Slain Primordials became a paradox. They're essence couldn't be reabsorbed into Lethe, as that was designed for specifically for Creation's mortals. They couldn't be reabsorbed into the Wyld, because they were in Creation or Yu-Shan. So a new Shinma was introduced so the laws that govern The World of Exalted would still fit the reality. Perhaps the Shinma of sparation recognized Destruction then.
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misuse


[[CainAndAbel Jacob and the Man in Black]] are probably two of its third-circle souls, but [[spoiler: the Light at the Heart of the Island]] is probably its fetich, considering what happened when [[spoiler: it was ([[IGotBetter temporarily]]) extinguished]].

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[[CainAndAbel Jacob and the Man in Black]] are probably two of its third-circle souls, but [[spoiler: the Light at the Heart of the Island]] is probably its fetich, considering what happened when [[spoiler: it was ([[IGotBetter temporarily]]) (temporarily) extinguished]].

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Namespacing


** So in Demon and Hunter, GodIsEvil and SatanIsGood, and TheBible's just wrong? That would mean that "God" in D:F is actually ''all'' the Primordials, not just one entity. It also doesn't work with the "Cain is an Abyssal, God is Sol" theory. The "God" in Vampire would have to be different from the "God" in Demon and H:tR. And if Lucifer is Sol what does that make the oWoD angels and demons? Angels = the devas and demons of Exalted, and oWoD demons = those who left their Yozis to become minor gods? It also begs the question why Sol Invictus would ask his new Chosen to kill all the Chosen of Luna and the Maidens, aka shapeshifters and mages.

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** So in Demon and Hunter, GodIsEvil and SatanIsGood, and TheBible's Literature/TheBible's just wrong? That would mean that "God" in D:F is actually ''all'' the Primordials, not just one entity. It also doesn't work with the "Cain is an Abyssal, God is Sol" theory. The "God" in Vampire would have to be different from the "God" in Demon and H:tR. And if Lucifer is Sol what does that make the oWoD angels and demons? Angels = the devas and demons of Exalted, and oWoD demons = those who left their Yozis to become minor gods? It also begs the question why Sol Invictus would ask his new Chosen to kill all the Chosen of Luna and the Maidens, aka shapeshifters and mages.
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* ...Scissors, paper, rock.
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* ....[[GreyAndGrayMorality I thought this was canon.]] Truth is, from everything that can be ascertained, the Primordials were uncaring, not cruel. Taking apart the Clay Man to see how he worked and to torment Autocthon was sort of like the cool kids stealing the creepy nerd's favorite action figure and looking at the inside before putting it back together haphazardly from their perspective. Jerky, but not evil. As mentioned in the Character Sheet, the Yozis only really became bitter and malevolent after their imprisonment for things they couldn't understand. The part about the Sun is wrong, though; ''Compass of Celestial Directions: Autocthonia'' makes it clear he thought the Primordials were being callous based on the ambivalent attitude they had towards humans and Dragon Kings.
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[[WMG: The world of GoldenSun is the distant future of Creation.]]

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[[WMG: The world of GoldenSun VideoGame/GoldenSun is the distant future of Creation.]]
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*** Actually, it does not imply GodIsEvil and SatanIsGood, as that would imply the Sun is Good. While later fluff trends in this direction, earlier fluff made the morality of what the Incarna did very blurry. Second, God does not have to be different from Vampire to Demon, just a different interpretation. Or, as one of the Hunter supplements indicated, God is another entity entirely and, eventually (another demon supplement backs this up) got pissed off at what happened, moved against the Sun, and finally set up Hell. Basically, the Demons in DtF would be... gods. It was all very messy, but kind of fun to try to make sense of.
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The Rebellion seems awfully similar to killing your parents to play on the X-box. The only bad things the game books say about the Empyreal Chaos's rule was that the gods were forced to work like slaves. Which isn't so bad in the light that now they neglect creation almost entirely, and the Celestial Bureaucracy is the most corrupt organization in existence. The only evil primordial was the Dragon's Shadow, who wouldn't appreciate other Primordials stealing his concept anyway. However, he got bored (being an evil overlord with no rebellion is awfully boring), and forced the Sun to wage war against the Primordials, and the other gods were only too happy to go along with it. However, the Sun being the Sun, he had to go and win. The Primordials imprisoned became evil because the Exalted mutilated their souls. Unfortunately, the Incarnae weren't as good as ruling as they hoped, and everything kinda went to hell.

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The Rebellion seems awfully similar to killing your parents to play on the X-box. The only bad things the game books say about the Empyreal Chaos's rule was that the gods were forced to work like slaves. Which isn't so bad in the light that now they neglect creation almost entirely, and the Celestial Bureaucracy is the most corrupt organization in existence. The only evil primordial was the Dragon's Shadow, who wouldn't appreciate other Primordials stealing his concept anyway. However, he got bored (being an evil overlord with no rebellion is awfully boring), and forced the Sun to wage war against the Primordials, and the other gods were only too happy to go along with it. However, the Sun being the Sun, he had to go and win. The Primordials imprisoned became evil because the Exalted mutilated their souls. Unfortunately, the Incarnae weren't as good as ruling as they hoped, and everything kinda went to hell.hell.
[[WMG: The Unconquered Sun is the Ebon Dragon's Heart]]
The Heart soul is the soul that defines a primordial. It makes them what they are. They have power, but can't act without it. The Dragon's Shadow was so heartless that he literally had no heart. So he had nigh-unimaginable power, but no ability to express it. So, like any other primordial would he fashioned a heart for himself. There is no shadow without light to cast it, and there is no villany without good to contrast with it. Just as the Dragon embodies darkness, villainy, and failure so the UCS must embody light, heroism, and perfection. The Unconquered sun defines the Dragon through contrast.
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[[WMG:The Primordials weren't evil]]
The Rebellion seems awfully similar to killing your parents to play on the X-box. The only bad things the game books say about the Empyreal Chaos's rule was that the gods were forced to work like slaves. Which isn't so bad in the light that now they neglect creation almost entirely, and the Celestial Bureaucracy is the most corrupt organization in existence. The only evil primordial was the Dragon's Shadow, who wouldn't appreciate other Primordials stealing his concept anyway. However, he got bored (being an evil overlord with no rebellion is awfully boring), and forced the Sun to wage war against the Primordials, and the other gods were only too happy to go along with it. However, the Sun being the Sun, he had to go and win. The Primordials imprisoned became evil because the Exalted mutilated their souls. Unfortunately, the Incarnae weren't as good as ruling as they hoped, and everything kinda went to hell.
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* It's mentioned in Demon: the Fallen that Lucifer actually was able to rule for a time before God did an smackdown and things went back to being crap. Why is this important? The original idea (now dropped) for Exalted was that it was the precursor to the WorldOfDarkness.

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* It's mentioned in Demon: the Fallen that Lucifer actually was able to rule for a time before God did an smackdown and things went back to being crap. Why is this important? The original idea (now dropped) for Exalted was that it was the precursor to the WorldOfDarkness.TabletopGame/OldWorldOfDarkness.



[[WMG: Exalted is what happens if [[WorldofDarkness the Akashic Brotherhood]] win the [[AscendToAHigherPlaneOfExistence Ascension War]].]]

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[[WMG: Exalted is what happens if [[WorldofDarkness [[TabletopGame/OldWorldofDarkness the Akashic Brotherhood]] win the [[AscendToAHigherPlaneOfExistence Ascension War]].]]
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** jossed in Return of the Scarlet Empress. Her stats are that she is an earth aspect dragon blood (that is Akuma or just under controll of the ring).
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* ... The ''Old'' World of Darkness.
* ... The ''New'' World of Darkness.
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Not a suspicious denial. Was a clear and adamant denial. If anything, that should link to \"No. Just... no.\"


** This one is actually specifically spelled out as ''not'' the case in the very first place they appear, the aptly-named book The Games of Divinity. In fact, that was the one thing that that book definitively stated about the Games. Every other write-up on Yu-Shan since then has been very careful to specifically and definitively repeat that statement that, whatever the Games of Divinity are, they have no effect on Creation and are [[SuspiciouslySpecificDenial specifically]] not games involving the fate of Creation itself in any way.

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** This one is actually specifically spelled out as ''not'' the case in the very first place they appear, the aptly-named book The Games of Divinity. In fact, that was the one thing that that book definitively stated about the Games. Every other write-up on Yu-Shan since then has been very careful to specifically and definitively repeat that statement that, whatever the Games of Divinity are, they have no effect on Creation and are [[SuspiciouslySpecificDenial specifically]] specifically not games involving the fate of Creation itself in any way.
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*** It never mashed up perfectly, but that WAS the answer for a while.
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** So in Demon and Hunter, God is evil and Lucifer is a nice guy, and TheBible's just wrong? That would mean that "God" in D:F is actually all the Primordials, not just one entity. It also doesn't work with the "Cain is an Abyssal, God is Sol" theory. The "God" in Vampire would have to be different from the "God" in Demon and H:tR. And if Lucifer is the Sun god what does that make the oWoD angels and demons? The devas and demons of Exalted, and those who left their Yozis to become minor gods? It also begs the question why Sol Invictus would send his new Chosen to kill all the Chosen of Luna and the Maidens, aka shapeshifters and mages.

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** So in Demon and Hunter, God is evil GodIsEvil and Lucifer is a nice guy, SatanIsGood, and TheBible's just wrong? That would mean that "God" in D:F is actually all ''all'' the Primordials, not just one entity. It also doesn't work with the "Cain is an Abyssal, God is Sol" theory. The "God" in Vampire would have to be different from the "God" in Demon and H:tR. And if Lucifer is the Sun god Sol what does that make the oWoD angels and demons? The Angels = the devas and demons of Exalted, and oWoD demons = those who left their Yozis to become minor gods? It also begs the question why Sol Invictus would send ask his new Chosen to kill all the Chosen of Luna and the Maidens, aka shapeshifters and mages.
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** The Great Curse was canonically caused by the Neverborn, though. That would explain why Hunters are all insane, though.

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** The Great Curse was canonically caused by the Neverborn, though. Neverborn. That would explain why Hunters are all insane, though.though, if they're the new Solars.
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** The Great Curse was canonically caused by the Neverborn, though. That would explain why Hunters are all insane, though.
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** So in Demon and Hunter, God is evil and Lucifer is a nice guy, and TheBible's just wrong? That would mean that "God" is actually all the Primordials/Yozis/Neverborn, not just one entity. It also doesn't work with the "Cain is an Abyssal, God is Sol" theory. The "God" in Vampire would have to be different from the "God" in Demon and Hunter. And if Lucifer is the sun what does that make the oWoD angels and demons? The devas and demons of Exalted, and those who left their Yozis to become minor gods?

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** So in Demon and Hunter, God is evil and Lucifer is a nice guy, and TheBible's just wrong? That would mean that "God" in D:F is actually all the Primordials/Yozis/Neverborn, Primordials, not just one entity. It also doesn't work with the "Cain is an Abyssal, God is Sol" theory. The "God" in Vampire would have to be different from the "God" in Demon and Hunter. H:tR. And if Lucifer is the sun Sun god what does that make the oWoD angels and demons? The devas and demons of Exalted, and those who left their Yozis to become minor gods?
gods? It also begs the question why Sol Invictus would send his new Chosen to kill all the Chosen of Luna and the Maidens, aka shapeshifters and mages.
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** So in Demon and Hunter, God is evil and Lucifer is a nice guy, and TheBible's just wrong? That would mean that "God" is actually all the Primordials/Yozis/Neverborn, not just one entity. It also doesn't work with the "Cain is an Abyssal, God is Sol" theory. The "God" in Vampire would have to be different from the "God" in Demon and Hunter. And if Lucifer is the sun what does that make the oWoD angels and demons? The devas and demons of Exalted, and those who left their Yozis to become minor gods?
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Now limited to in universe.


** Upon further reading of Infernals: Cosmic X-Box is pretty close to it. They have controllers (the section on Adorjan) and a power source (the Defiler Caste summary). It's just that it's a supernaturally addictive X-box powered by the world. (Incidentally, this means the Unconquered Sun has a problem with JustOneMoreLevel.)

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** Upon further reading of Infernals: Cosmic X-Box is pretty close to it. They have controllers (the section on Adorjan) and a power source (the Defiler Caste summary). It's just that it's a supernaturally addictive X-box powered by the world. (Incidentally, this means the Unconquered Sun has a problem with JustOneMoreLevel.)
world.
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After successfully maneuvering the great houses into giving him the throne, he realized that the only way he'd be allowed to keep it is if he pulls a [[OrderOfTheStick Shojo Gambit]] on everyone. This possibility is acknowledged in ''Compass of Celestial Directions Part I: The Blessed Isle''.

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After successfully maneuvering the great houses into giving him the throne, he realized that the only way he'd be allowed to keep it is if he pulls a [[OrderOfTheStick [[Webcomic/OrderOfTheStick Shojo Gambit]] on everyone. This possibility is acknowledged in ''Compass of Celestial Directions Part I: The Blessed Isle''.
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[[WMG: The Ebon Dragon's plan in RotSE is oddly out of character because [[ThanatosGambit he was always supposed to lose.]]]]
The Players have done everything right. The Army of Light is impossibly strong. The Green Sun Princes and their Abyssal stooges may have done the impossible (as Solars are wont to do) and Conquered the Sun, but the Maidens are prepared to provide a replacement, going so far as to use a redeemed Abyssal, ensuring that the Sun is not tarnished by the Great Curse. The new Sun's former existence as a mortal may even allow her to subvert the programing inherent in the gods that prevents them from harming the Primordials, allowing her to face the Ebon Dragon in person. Even the Daystar is fully operational. The Ebon Dragon's wedding may have gone perfectly, and Gaia is terribly wounded, but even as the ceremony concludes, the Fiends, the Serenity Akuma presiding, and even the Queen of Hell herself conspire to give the Army of Light the final tools they will need to destroy the Shadow of All Things - after all, betrayal of the Ebon Dragon is inherently service to him.

The Army marches, the Sun shines, the Daystar obliterates, and the Dragon's servants betray. Earth is healed, the Shadow's works cast down, and the Dragon himself is slain.

Just as planned.

The Ebon Dragon had finally figured out that he was the problem linking all his failures; that his own nature was what was holding him back and what would ultimately cause his demise. Faced with self-destruction, he selfishly chose to betray his own nature to preserve his existence. He crafted the ultimate tale of megalomaniacal villainy, one his enemies could never resist the urge to thwart. He set them up against a suitably terrifying and invincible dragon: of course, his enemies would assume, a coward such as he could never bring himself to face them in a form less impossible to slay; surely he must have forgotten that they achieve the impossible all the time. It would never occur to any of them that a coward such as the Ebon Dragon could betray his own Fetich Soul and force it to take the fall for him.

The being that had once been the Shadow of All Things would reform in a manner that could not be predicted, but it would have a chance to exist in a way that the Ebon Dragon never could. Even if it were to reform in perfect reflection of its self-created nemesis the Sun, the very concept of perfect invincibility would be undermined, and so to must be the concept of perfect failure. The Dragon Reborn might have a chance at actually succeeding at something for once in its miserable existence.

And if the unthinkable should happen and the Solars should somehow FAIL to do the impossible, then he rules the world with a shadowy fist for a while. Good enough. The plan can always be tried again when the inevitable uprising finally comes.

Of course, being a plan of the Ebon Dragon, it has one humongous hole in it: it relies on none of the Army of Light being clever enough to realize that the dancing shadow on the ground might actually be more important that the great honking dragon casting it, and focusing their attacks on it instead.

But maybe the Neverborn have the right idea anyway. Maybe it's time to stop trying to screw all the other players and just kick the board over already.

Not that the Neverborn actually want anything to do with him, of course. He's enough of a pain already.
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Removed sinkhole(s) to Understatement.


* The Auditors could be first-circle demons of She Who Lives In Her Name, who [[{{Understatement}} never got along very well with]] A'Tuin.

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* The Auditors could be first-circle demons of She Who Lives In Her Name, who [[{{Understatement}} never got along very well with]] with A'Tuin.
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** This one is actually specifically spelled out as ''not'' the case in the very first place they appear, the aptly-named book The Games of Divinity. In fact, that was the one thing that that book definitively stated about the Games. Every other write-up on Yu-Shan since then has been very careful to specifically and definitively repeat that statement that, whatever the Games of Divinity are, they have no effect on Creation and are specifically not games involving the fate of Creation itself in any way.

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** This one is actually specifically spelled out as ''not'' the case in the very first place they appear, the aptly-named book The Games of Divinity. In fact, that was the one thing that that book definitively stated about the Games. Every other write-up on Yu-Shan since then has been very careful to specifically and definitively repeat that statement that, whatever the Games of Divinity are, they have no effect on Creation and are specifically [[SuspiciouslySpecificDenial specifically]] not games involving the fate of Creation itself in any way.

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[[WMG: One or more of the characters is a WMG/TimeLord.]]
All 700 Celestial Exalted, for a start. They found a new way to regenerate.

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[[WMG: One or more of the characters is a WMG/TimeLord.]]
All 700 Celestial Exalted, for a start. They found a new way to regenerate.



Do I even really need to explain this one? Associated with light, greatest of the Creator(s)'s servants, betrayed his master(s)...about the only difference in the story is that the Unconquered Sun ''won''.

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Do I even really need to explain this one? Associated He's associated with light, he's the greatest of the Creator(s)'s servants, he betrayed his master(s)...about the only difference in the story is that the Unconquered Sun ''won''.
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*** Empyreal Chaos made the Daystar, the Ebon Dragon made the Unconquered Sun.
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\n[[WMG: Elloge, the Sphere of Speech, is TVTropes]]
Someone here help, I got this idea from the PoisonOakEpilepticTrees page where someone said TV Tropes is an EldritchAbomination and it just ''fit.''
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* Well, CoTD:South explicitly mentions that he's a former scavenger with nothing but enlightened essence. Only the sceptre kept him alive so long. Also, his lack of Solar Exaltation is far from a mystery: Solar Exaltations generally happen when one is in deep trouble (be it an enemy army surrounding your troops, being cornered by a few enemies, or simply having a mixture of VillainousBSOD and mid-life crisis (That'd be Panther, the signature Zenith)). The Prefect never really had any challenge, his sceptre did all the work for him, all he had to do was minor political manoeuvring at the beginning of his reign. If he was a Sidereal, he'd rule half of creation by now with the resources he has.

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