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Cleaning up natter. A trope page is neither a forum or a discussion page. If you guys want to continue hashing things out, take it to one of those places, please.


* Done frequently by the Soviet Army; in WWII Party Commissars (otherwise known as political officers, even though they weren't technically officers in the military sense and were dismissed in 1943 anyway) would shoot those attempting to retreat. This was portrayed in ''Enemy At the Gates''. (Not that is is a [[VeryLooselyBasedOnATrueStory paragon of historical accuracy]], mind you.) And is a frequent appearance in those [[FantasyCounterpartCulture Fantasy Counterpart Cultures]] standing in for Soviet Russia.
** The Soviet and Nazi armies' overall casualties were 1,3 to 1, which one should consider a reasonable and neccessary price for defeating the most powerful army of those times. People usually overestimate both the actual size of the Soviet army and the amount of human resources of the USSR. Wehrmacht was significantly outnumbering the Red Army at least until 1942, and having the land where 1/3 of the population lived occupied by the Germans, the Red Army actually suffered from the *lack* of reserves. Though the Soviet commanders saw any particular soldier less expendable, they wanted to keep their units (companies, regiments, divisions and so on) as intact as possible - not because they were too kind to their subordinates, but because should the unit suffer too many losses, it is going to fail the mission, and the commander is going to get sacked or even executed.
*** Disputable to the extreme. The Wehrmacht itself never outnumbered the Soviets (you only even got CLOSE by throwing in the Romanians, Hungarians, volunteers, etc. al), and the crucial call up of the poorly trained and armed reserves who nevertheless grossly outnumbered the Germans (particularly the fairly small spearheads they actually faced) was pretty much the deciding factor in the battle for Moscow. While it is true that the Soviet Union was not as bad as most think regarding the willingness to order units to fight until utter destruction, they didn't avert this trope to that degree either.
*** Would you please prove your words and name two or three *particular* Soviet divisions which fought in the battle for Moscow and consisted of 'poorly trained and armed reserves'? During the battle of Moscow the Soviet command even redeployed the forces ready to penetrate the blockade of Leningrad, using them to replace the armies lost after the defeat at Vyazma - because nobody wanted to employ poorly trained people who were unable to hold the line and therefore had no use. Then, let's look at the numbers. At the beginning of the war the Soviet forces on the west of the USSR had 2 680 000 men, while Wehrmacht had 3 117 000 men against them, and also had 650 000 Finnish and Romanian allies. It is 1 to 1.4, and Germany is ahesd. September 11, 1941 - the Red Army has 3 463 000 on the front, the Axis forces have 4 022 000. 1 to 1,16, Germany is ahead. November 1, 1941 - 1 to 1,9, Germany is ahead. The Red Army was unable to perform a successful counter-offensive until the December, 1941 because only then it managed to at least slightly outnumber the opposing Germans. *the data is from 'When Titans Clashed' by David M. Glantz and Jonathan M. House*

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* Done Popular belief is that this has been done frequently by the Soviet Army; in WWII Army, although both professional and armchair historians question how much of this is truth and how much is image and propaganda. Perhaps the most infamous example is the existence of Party Commissars in WWII (otherwise known as political officers, even though they weren't technically officers in the military sense and were dismissed in 1943 anyway) who would shoot those attempting to retreat. This was portrayed in ''Enemy At the Gates''. (Not that is is a [[VeryLooselyBasedOnATrueStory paragon of historical accuracy]], mind you.) And is a frequent appearance in those [[FantasyCounterpartCulture Fantasy Counterpart Cultures]] standing in for Soviet Russia.
** The Soviet and Nazi armies' overall casualties were 1,3 to 1, which one should consider a reasonable and neccessary price for defeating the most powerful army of those times. People usually overestimate both the actual size of the Soviet army and the amount of human resources of the USSR. Wehrmacht was significantly outnumbering the Red Army at least until 1942, and having the land where 1/3 of the population lived occupied by the Germans, the Red Army actually suffered from the *lack* of reserves. Though the Soviet commanders saw any particular soldier less expendable, they wanted to keep their units (companies, regiments, divisions and so on) as intact as possible - not because they were too kind to their subordinates, but because should the unit suffer too many losses, it is going to fail the mission, and the commander is going to get sacked or even executed.
*** Disputable to the extreme. The Wehrmacht itself never outnumbered the Soviets (you only even got CLOSE by throwing in the Romanians, Hungarians, volunteers, etc. al), and the crucial call up of the poorly trained and armed reserves who nevertheless grossly outnumbered the Germans (particularly the fairly small spearheads they actually faced) was pretty much the deciding factor in the battle for Moscow. While it is true that the Soviet Union was not as bad as most think regarding the willingness to order units to fight until utter destruction, they didn't avert this trope to that degree either.
*** Would you please prove your words and name two or three *particular* Soviet divisions which fought in the battle for Moscow and consisted of 'poorly trained and armed reserves'? During the battle of Moscow the Soviet command even redeployed the forces ready to penetrate the blockade of Leningrad, using them to replace the armies lost after the defeat at Vyazma - because nobody wanted to employ poorly trained people who were unable to hold the line and therefore had no use. Then, let's look at the numbers. At the beginning of the war the Soviet forces on the west of the USSR had 2 680 000 men, while Wehrmacht had 3 117 000 men against them, and also had 650 000 Finnish and Romanian allies. It is 1 to 1.4, and Germany is ahesd. September 11, 1941 - the Red Army has 3 463 000 on the front, the Axis forces have 4 022 000. 1 to 1,16, Germany is ahead. November 1, 1941 - 1 to 1,9, Germany is ahead. The Red Army was unable to perform a successful counter-offensive until the December, 1941 because only then it managed to at least slightly outnumber the opposing Germans. *the data is from 'When Titans Clashed' by David M. Glantz and Jonathan M. House*
Russia.
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*** Would you please prove your words and name two or three *particular* Soviet divisions which fought in the battle for Moscow and consisted of 'poorly trained and armed reserves'? During the battle of Moscow the Soviet command even redeployed the forces ready to penetrate the blockade of Leningrad, using them to replace the armies lost after the defeat at Vyazma - because nobody wanted to employ poorly trained people who were unable to hold the line and therefore had no use. Then, let's look at the numbers. At the beginning of the war the Soviet forces on the west of the USSR had 2 680 000 men, while Wehrmacht had 3 117 000 men against them, and also had 650 000 Finnish and Romanian allies. It is 1 to 1.4, and Germany is ahesd. September 11, 1941 - the Red Army has 3 463 000 on the front, the Axis forces have 4 022 000. 1 to 1,16, Germany is ahead. November 1, 1941 - 1 to 1,9, Germany is ahead. The Red Army was unable to perform a successful counter-offensive until the December, 1941 because only then it managed to at least slightly outnumber the opposing Germans. *the data is from 'When Titans Clashed' by David M. Glantz and Jonathan M. House*
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*** Disputable to the extreme. The Wehrmacht itself never outnumbered the Soviets (you only even got CLOSE by throwing in the Romanians, Hungarians, volunteers, etc. al), and the crucial call up of the poorly trained and armed reserves who nevertheless grossly outnumbered the Germans (particularly the fairly small spearheads they actually faced) was pretty much the deciding factor in the battle for Moscow. While it is true that the Soviet Union was not as bad as most think regarding the willingness to order units to fight until utter destruction, they didn't avert this trope to that degree either.


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**** Nope, they still had that problem in a few places (most notably when they brought reserves across the Volga into Stalingrad). The key improvement Stalin had over the Tsar was that he actually COULD replace the war material he lost, whereas the Tsarist Army couldn't.
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** King Pyrrhus won several battles over the Romans but [[PyrrhicVictory found his army getting weaker whereas the Romans were able to use their manpower to bring their armies back up to full strength]].

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** [[TropeNamer King Pyrrhus Pyrrhus]] won several battles over the Romans but [[PyrrhicVictory found his army getting weaker whereas the Romans were able to use their manpower to bring their armies back up to full strength]].
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*** The numbers is a common misconception. Actually, the South Vietnamese/US forces had over ''three times'' as many soldiers in Vietnam as the VC/NVA at the height of the war. 1,830,000 to ~520,000 in 1968 according to [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War the other wiki]]. That is why the result was such a game-changer in American history: the communist forces had far less soldiers to loose, but lost far more soldiers, and had lost much more land than they gained, yet they won the war of attrition anyways (when the Americans withdrew). The morale was the deciding factor. But in fact, the morale also got dangerously low for the communist forces (as recorded in interviews with former VC in Peter Jenning's ''The Century'') after the massive military and propaganda failure in Vietnam of the Tet offensive where it was commonly believed in the VC ranks that it was over for them and they would be negotiating peace, until their leaders found out the huge and completely unexpected effect the offensive had on the American public.
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** The Soviet and Nazi armies' overall casualties were 1,3 to 1, which one should consider a reasonable and neccessary price for defeating the most powerful army of those times. People usually overestimate both the actual size of the Soviet army and the amount of human resources of the USSR. Wehrmacht was significantly outnumbering the Red Army at least until 1942, and having the land where 1/3 of the population lived occupied by the Germans, the Red Army actually suffered from the *lack* of reserves. Though the Soviet commanders saw any particular soldier less expendable, they wanted to keep their units (companies, regiments, divisions and so on) as intact as possible - not because they were too kind to their subordinates, but because should the unit suffer too many losses, it is going to fail the mission, and the commander is going to get sacked or even executed.
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Fixing up some examples.


* An interesting example from Iain M. Banks' ''The Player of Games:'' the protagonist is freaked out when he realizes how much the Emperor personifies this trope, even though the reserves he so casually sacrifices aren't people but pieces in a very elaborate game. (The reason he is freaked out is that the game is expressly designed to mirror the player's values and philosophy - meaning that the superficially charming and civilized Emperor has revealed himself as AxCrazy.)

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* An interesting example from Iain M. Banks' ''The Player of Games:'' IainMBanks' ''TheCulture/ThePlayerOfGames:'' the protagonist is freaked out when he realizes how much the Emperor personifies this trope, even though the reserves he so casually sacrifices aren't people but pieces in a very elaborate game. (The The reason he is freaked out is that the game is expressly designed to mirror the player's values and philosophy - -- meaning that the superficially charming and civilized Emperor has revealed himself as AxCrazy.)



* An interesting variation of this happened in {{NCIS}}, during the investigation aboard [[SecretProject the ship they weren't allowed to know about]]. After they recover the [[McGuffin nuclear weapon]] and leave, a missile blows up the secret ship. One of them asks "how did they knew we got off?". The answer? "I don't think they knew".

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* An interesting variation of this happened in {{NCIS}}, during the investigation aboard [[SecretProject the ship they weren't allowed to know about]].about. After they recover the [[McGuffin nuclear weapon]] and leave, a missile blows up the secret ship. One of them asks "how did they knew we got off?". The answer? "I don't think they knew".



* In ''CallOfDuty: Modern Warfare 2'', [[spoiler:General Shepherd]] calls in an airstrike on top of his own men to stop Captain Price and Soap from getting to him.

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* In ''CallOfDuty: ''[[CallOfDuty Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2'', 2]]'', [[spoiler:General Shepherd]] calls in an airstrike on top of his own men to stop Captain Price and Soap from getting to him.



** RealTimeTactics games, which follow RTS game mechanics, generally avert this trope by giving you fixed units in the game, though this gives another problem of destroyed units being LostForever (except in ''WorldInConflict'' which allowed reinforcements to replace lost units). Some modern RTS also avoid the "WeHaveReserves" type gameplay by taking psychological issues of individual units into account, which makes sending troops into suicide missions tactically prohibitive.



* Real Time Tactics games, generally avert this trope by giving you fixed units in the game, though this gives another problem of destroyed units being LostForever (except in ''WorldInConflict'' which allowed reinforcements to replace lost units). Some modern RTS also avoid the "WeHaveReserves" type gameplay by taking psychological issues of individual units into account, which makes sending troops into suicide missions tactically prohibitive.



* Notably averted in OriginalWar from Altar Interactive, a RTS with RPG elements. In the single player game (and multiplayer with the right settings), every person who dies is actually KilledOffForReal. Each of them has a name, skills and a face. You know them. When any of them dies, it's a loss not just for the war cause (the reinforcements are very limited) but for you as the commander personally. Over the whole storyline - if you let four guys die in the first mission, you are going to have to do without them for the rest of the game. The Russian/Soviet faction in the game employ this trope quite a bit though and the Arabians even more so - even then though, the losses are permanent and the soldiers are not very happy about it.

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* Notably averted in OriginalWar ''Original War'' from Altar Interactive, a RTS with RPG elements. In the single player game (and multiplayer with the right settings), every person who dies is actually KilledOffForReal. Each of them has a name, skills and a face. You know them. When any of them dies, it's a loss not just for the war cause (the reinforcements are very limited) but for you as the commander personally. Over the whole storyline - if you let four guys die in the first mission, you are going to have to do without them for the rest of the game. The Russian/Soviet faction in the game employ this trope quite a bit though and the Arabians even more so - even then though, the losses are permanent and the soldiers are not very happy about it.



* In ''SouthPark: Bigger, Longer & Uncut'', the general preparing for battle splits his soldiers into two operations: Operation Human Shield, consisting of the black soldiers, the all-important first attack wave expected to take heavy losses, and Operation Get Behind the Darkies, consisting of everyone else. Naturally, [=OHS=], being lead by Chef, subverts the entire plan--by ducking.

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* In ''SouthPark: ''[[SouthPark South Park: Bigger, Longer & Uncut'', Uncut]]'', the general preparing for battle splits his soldiers into two operations: Operation Human Shield, consisting of the black soldiers, the all-important first attack wave expected to take heavy losses, and Operation Get Behind the Darkies, consisting of everyone else. Naturally, [=OHS=], being lead by Chef, subverts the entire plan--by ducking.



* In MagicTheGathering, decks built around Goblins not only employ cheap creatures whose only purpose is to get a bit of damage in at the opponent before dying any one of numerous ways, but creatures that give you beneficial effects for intentionally sacrificing them.

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* In MagicTheGathering, ''MagicTheGathering'', decks built around Goblins not only employ cheap creatures whose only purpose is to get a bit of damage in at the opponent before dying any one of numerous ways, but creatures that give you beneficial effects for intentionally sacrificing them.
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-> Losses are acceptable. Failure is not.
-->-- '''[[BigBookOfWar The Tactica Imperialis]]''', ''{{Warhammer 40000}}''
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** The Roman reaction to the disastrous battle of Cannae, the bloodiest day in Roman history to that point, with up to 70,000 Romans killed? Build another army.

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** The Roman reaction to the disastrous battle of Cannae, the bloodiest day in Roman history to that point, with up to 70,000 Romans killed? Build the virtually the entire Roman army annihilated? [[TheDeterminator Raise another army.army]].
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** The Roman reaction to the disastrous battle of Cannae, the bloodiest day in Roman history, with up to 70,000 Romans killed? Build another army.

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** The Roman reaction to the disastrous battle of Cannae, the bloodiest day in Roman history, history to that point, with up to 70,000 Romans killed? Build another army.
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** The Roman reaction to the disastrous battle of Cannae, the bloodiest day in Roman history, with up to 70,000 Romans killed? Build another army.
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*** That's Darth Vader. A LOT of Imperial High Command is not a fan of that idea.


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****Well given the post-Endor EU is a VestigialEmpire that is trying to hold onto its remaining territory, then retake the galaxy, it is understandable.


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*** Uh, from what I Remembeer they -did- evacuate all the guards & use them as Death Star prison guards.

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** In ''{{Gundam Seed}}'' the Earth Alliance activates a cyclops system hidden beneath their Alaska base when it comes under attack by Zaft. The system basically nukes everthing within 10 miles of the base and kills nearly everyone defending it. This actually helps the Atlantic Federation as it kills off most of the Eurasian political moderates and allows the Earth Alliance to pursue a more genocidal path towards ending the war. This is what causes the Archangel crew to finally defect from the Alliance.
*** That is actually a common tactic invoked by the Atlantic Federation, they used the same trick in the book in Endymion. For the Earth Alliance this is the only way to make sure you can have an advantage over ZAFT which was pummeling them to submission

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** In ''{{Gundam Seed}}'' the Earth Alliance activates a cyclops system hidden beneath their Alaska base when it comes under attack by Zaft.ZAFT. The system basically nukes everthing within 10 miles of the base and kills nearly everyone defending it. This actually helps the Atlantic Federation as it kills off most of the Eurasian political moderates and allows the Earth Alliance to pursue a more genocidal path towards ending the war. This is what causes the Archangel crew to finally defect from the Alliance.
*** That is actually a common tactic invoked by the Atlantic Federation, they used the same trick in the book in Endymion. For the Earth Alliance this is the only way to make sure you can have an advantage over ZAFT which was pummeling them to submission submission.
**** The Endymion example was used as a last measure, the base was being overrun by ZAFT & there was no forewarning from anyone. JOSH-A was given forewarning, arguably that makes JOSH-A worse than Endymion. Also the battle didnt kill most of the Eurasian forces, only enough to push the balance back in the hands of the Atlantic Federation. However, why do that to the enlisted when the AF could've done the same to the officers and achieve the same result (and have the Eurasian enlisted as support who do not do the genocidal stuff so they do not mutiny?)
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** It should be noted that this trope doesn't really apply in that example. By this point the Haven leadership actually DO care about their people, however they are at a severe financial disadvantage and a moderate (as far as they know) technical one. Without the attack on Manticore, Haven would lose the war as the MRN slowly eats their pickets, takes their bases, and cuts their supply lines.
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* The military tactics of Thomas "Stonewall" Flathead in ''Zork Zero'' seem to match this. He routinely took 90+% casualties in military operations (Mainly suppressing tax riots against his brother the King's 90+% income tax), and held unit strength up with unlimited conscription powers.
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* ''YuGiOh'' has a card called "Human Wave Tactics" that allows a player to replace low-level normal (no effect) monsters at the end of the turn they're killed. (Ironically, all eligible monsters are absolutely useless offensively. [[SpiritBomb Having hordes of monsters in your graveyard, however...]])

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* ''YuGiOh'' ''[=~Yu-Gi-Oh!~=]'' has a card called "Human Wave Tactics" that allows a player to replace low-level normal (no effect) monsters at the end of the turn they're killed. (Ironically, all eligible monsters are absolutely useless offensively. [[SpiritBomb Having hordes of monsters in your graveyard, however...]])
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** It's also worth noting that during the climactic battle of ''Return of the Jedi'', the Rebel fleet closed to spitting distance with the Imperial fleet so that the Death Star couldn't safely fire the superlaser, a tactic which would not have worked if the Empire were invoking this trope. Of course, there's a difference between a valuable starship and individual soldiers that seem to be minted by the battalion, at least (as mentioned above) to ''most'' of the Empire.

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** It's also worth noting that during the climactic battle of ''Return of the Jedi'', ''ReturnOfTheJedi'', the Rebel fleet closed to spitting distance with the Imperial fleet so that the Death Star couldn't safely fire the superlaser, a tactic which would not have worked if the Empire were invoking this trope. Of course, there's a difference between a valuable starship and individual soldiers that seem to be minted by the battalion, at least (as mentioned above) to ''most'' of the Empire.



** After the Vong Invasion and the Empire coming back, they seem to have stopped this the [=TIE=] Fighters have shields (and had since the days of Thrawn), and stormtroopers [[strike:know how]] are allowed to aim now.

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** After the [[NewJediOrder Vong Invasion Invasion]] and the Empire coming back, they seem to have stopped this the [=TIE=] Fighters have shields (and had since the days of Thrawn), and stormtroopers [[strike:know how]] are allowed to aim now.



** Similarly to Malak's example down below, the novel ''Death Star'' has the titular superweapon test fired on a prison planet. The gunner who fired tries to believe that this is okay because the inhabitants of the planet had been sentenced to life there, but he knows there were some guards down there too who weren't evacuated. Interestingly, before the Death Star heads to Alderaan someone brings up the criticism that hey, that was a prison world, what nasty-but-life-sustaining place does the Empire send convicts to now? The response is that one, there will be fewer convicts now because more people will hesitate to break the law, and two... there are other prison worlds.

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** Similarly to Malak's example down below, the novel ''Death Star'' ''DeathStar'' has the titular superweapon test fired on a prison planet. The gunner who fired tries to believe that this is okay because the inhabitants of the planet had been sentenced to life there, but he knows there were some guards down there too who weren't evacuated. Interestingly, before the Death Star heads to Alderaan someone brings up the criticism that hey, that was a prison world, what nasty-but-life-sustaining place does the Empire send convicts to now? The response is that one, there will be fewer convicts now because more people will hesitate to break the law, and two... there are other prison worlds.
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** Of course here the VC had a massive numbers, home turf and morale advantage, the main tactics that helped against the better-equipped but far fewer US troops and their allies.
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*** Well, ''supposedly''. Masterminds were meant to be [[AnAdventurerIsYou the tanks]], but [[VideoGameCaringPotential some players take too much of a liking to their pets]]. Even the '[[StoneWall tankermind]]' build has the player and pets effectively sharing a (now very large) life bar.
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*** Their army recruitment slogan at the time was "Die For Russia". It's still an upgrade to the first world war, where they occasionally deployed significantly more men than ''rifles''
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** The trope more or less coined the phrase 'Pyrrhic victory' where King Pyrrhus won several battles over the Romans but found his army getting weaker whereas the Romans were able to use their manpower to bring their armies back up to full strength.

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** The trope more or less coined the phrase 'Pyrrhic victory' where King Pyrrhus won several battles over the Romans but [[PyrrhicVictory found his army getting weaker whereas the Romans were able to use their manpower to bring their armies back up to full strength.strength]].
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* "EnemyAtTheGates" may count. The Red Army is advancing on the German front lines. Many Russian soldiers didn't even have weapons, forced to pick up guns of downed allies and were forced to charge against the well-armed Germans, and were gunned down by NKVD machine gunners if they tried to retreat.
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additional info on wwII and warhammer

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**In the background Dark Elves do this with slave troops (one story has them herd their recently captured slaves onto the battlefield where they shoot them down to serve as cover, interfere with the enemies cavalry and to demoralise the enemy (it works)) though it doesn't happen in the game itself.
**Chaos Dwarfs also have disposable slave troops, mostly Hobgoblins but other Goblinoid races as well, while they couldn't fire into combat they did have a large amount of area of effect weaponry that was fairly indescriminate, also in past itinerations they had a magic item that caused Hobgoblin heroes to explode........


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*During WWII British estimates of the casulties that would be sustained during an opposed airborne landing operation were put at 80% or higher and this was considered acceptable (but then considering the fact that they didn't issue British paratroopers with reserve parachutes as that would have cost an additional £1 this perhaps isn't surprising).
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*** On the other hand, Thrawn does say of the Noghri: "One group or another will succeed. Until then—a few Noghri, more or less, ''won't seriously drain our resources."'' Just in case you forgot that Thrawn is indeed a {{Magnificent Bastard}}.

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*** On the other hand, Thrawn does say of the Noghri: "One group or another will succeed. Until then—a few Noghri, more or less, ''won't seriously drain our resources."'' Just in case you forgot that Thrawn is indeed a {{Magnificent Bastard}}.Bastard, albeit a [[MagnificentBastard Magnificent one]].
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expanded Buffy

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** Well to be fair, Twilight [[spoiler:was actually Angel in disguise trying to undermine the plot against Buffy]], so it's understandable that he wouldn't care about the soldiers.
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* The Cheiron Group in ''HunterTheVigil'' hire people to go capture supernatural creatures for experimentation... with their only preparations being a book filled with half-truths and outright fables. Hey, with the way the job market is, if anyone dies, we can hire new ones!
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*** Keep in mind that it's "Mech" like in "Mechanised Infantry" not like in "MechaMooks".
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** Yeah. Thankfully we had Walter Cronkite to make sure we knew we lost the damn war. Good thing we have Dan Rather to fill that role for Iraq and Afghanistan now.
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** Yeah. Thankfully we had Walter Cronkite to make sure we knew we lost the damn war. Good thing we have Dan Rather to fill that role for Iraq and Afghanistan now.
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--> This form is irrelevant (to his current host)

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