History Main / TheBattlestar

21st Oct '17 5:58:33 PM Tk39971
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* ''USS White Plains'' is the only aircraft carrier to have scored a kill with its guns. Well, gun. Ironically, it was very poorly armed compared to any of the above examples, only boasting a single five-inch gun. Luckily for the carrier, said five-inch gun landed a hit on the torpedo tubes of the heavy cruiser ''Chokai''. And since Japanese torpedoes were propelled by [[MadeOfExplodium compressed oxygen]] and were right next to the engines... boom. She also survived a shelling from the battleship ''Yamato'', despite her nonexistent armor, prior to doing this. This would have been an amazing result for most classes of battleships under similar situations[[note]] This is less impressive than it sounds; Yamato's shells landed just short of ''White Plains'' and detonated underwater. The damage still forced the escort carrier to return to the Continental US for repairs shortly afterward, and she never sortied again[[/note]].

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* ''USS White Plains'' is the only aircraft carrier to have scored a kill with its guns. Well, gun. Ironically, it was very poorly armed compared to any of the above examples, only boasting a single five-inch gun. Luckily for the carrier, said five-inch gun landed a hit on the torpedo tubes of the heavy cruiser ''Chokai''. And since Japanese torpedoes were propelled by [[MadeOfExplodium compressed oxygen]] and were right next to the engines... boom. She also survived a shelling from the battleship ''Yamato'', despite her nonexistent armor, prior to doing this. This would have been an amazing result for most classes of battleships under similar situations[[note]] This is less impressive than it sounds; Yamato's shells landed just short of ''White Plains'' and detonated underwater. The damage still forced the escort carrier to return to the Continental US for repairs shortly afterward, and she never sortied again[[/note]].afterward[[/note]].
24th Jul '17 10:53:09 AM KamenRiderOokalf
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* ''Series/UltramanTiga'' has the ''Artdessei'', a CarrierBattleship capable of carrying three GUTS Wing fighters and packing a WaveMotionGun. It's a relatively small example of the trope, but since it's TwentyMinutesIntoTheFuture...

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* ''Series/UltramanTiga'' has the ''Artdessei'', a CarrierBattleship carrier battleship capable of carrying three GUTS Wing fighters and packing a WaveMotionGun. It's a relatively small example of the trope, but since it's TwentyMinutesIntoTheFuture...
19th Jul '17 9:09:17 PM AFP
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[[RealityIsUnrealistic It is worth noting]] that RealLife examples of this trope largely predate RealLife examples of dedicated aircraft carriers. Many early experiments in launching and recovering airplanes from warships involved cruisers and battleships, and the first aircraft carrier to launch a wartime air raid, the British HMS ''Furious'', began life as a battlecruiser and went through [[EarlyInstallmentWeirdness various intermediary designs]] where she retained some of her main battery along with a flight deck. They wouldn't settle on the flush-deck carrier design modern viewers would recognize until the postwar period.
16th Jul '17 5:45:23 PM nombretomado
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*** ''Guantanamo-''class stealth carriers, which are not that much different from WW2 escort carriers, being smallish ships built around a modest air wing with little else.

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*** ''Guantanamo-''class stealth carriers, which are not that much different from WW2 [=WW2=] escort carriers, being smallish ships built around a modest air wing with little else.
16th Jul '17 4:24:21 PM WillKeaton
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* The [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ise_class_battleship Ise-class battleships]] ''Ise'' and ''Hyuga'' were converted into hybrid battleship-carriers (航空戦艦, Kōkū Senkan or Aviation Battleship, USN Classification: BBV) during World War Two, removing two of their rear turrets in exchange for small flight decks and a capacity of 22 seaplanes and divebombers. The small size of the flight deck meant that their utility as carriers are comparable to that of an escort carrier at best, and due to the lack of both planes and flight crews, their operational use ended up rather unsuccessful, to the point where the ships continued to be employed as pure battleships right up until their career as warships effectively ended during the Battle off Cape Engaño, where they as part of the pitiful remnants of Japanese aircraft carrier forces were overwhelmed by swarms of American fighter-bombers, and suffered the indignity of being reduced to floating anti-aircraft batteries for the remainder of their lives. In retrospect, their seaplanes would have been useful as scouts and anti-submarine patrols (both of which the Japanese '''desperately''' needed in order to make up for the US Navy's superior radar technology and extensive use of submarines), scenarios where the battleships' guns would be tucked away and therefore not interfere with aircraft operations. But then again, by the time the battleship-carriers came on-line, Japan already had trouble building enough of ''any'' plane[[note]]It should be noted Japan's original plans were to convert ''all'' their battleships except ''Yamato'' and ''Musashi'' into full-fledged aircraft carriers, but that a lack of resources forced them to make that conversion instead.[[/note]].
** The Imperial Japanese Navy operated also two heavy cruisers of the ''[[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone-class_cruiser Tone]]''-class, that had all their main guns mounted forward while their stern was designed to have facilities for launching seaplanes[[note]]Unlike the other IJN ships, these cruisers were designed from the start for that role using the aircraft for long-range reconnaissance[[/note]]. In 1943 the cruiser ''[[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_cruiser_Mogami_%281934%29#Respite_in_Japan Mogami]]'' was modified for a similar role, removing her aft guns in exchange for a deck with rails to operate floatplanes, and there were even [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ise-class_battleship#Conversion_to_hybrid_carriers plans]] in the IJN to give another old pair of battleships of theirs an ''Ise''-like configuration.
** Earlier aircraft carriers did approach a "cruiserstar" configuration -- American carriers ''Lexington'' and ''Saratoga'' and the Japanese carriers ''Akagi'' and ''Kaga'' (all four were converted from capital ships under construction in the wake of the London Naval Treaty: the first three from battlecruisers and ''Kaga'' from a battleship) were all fitted with heavy cruiser-caliber big guns and could theoretically fight on equal terms with anything smaller than a battleship or battlecruiser. In reality, the guns were often positioned where they were either of little use or actually ''detrimental'' to their aviation facilities [[note]] Firing the cruiser guns to the port side by ''Lexington'' or ''Saratoga'' would have ruined their respective flight decks, and ''Akagi'' and ''Kaga'' had their big guns moved to casemates just above the stern where they not only were practically useless but also added the threat of a magazine explosion close to the ship's very vulnerable rudder and propellers[[/note]] and the huge, unarmored flight decks made them vulnerable in a gun fight. The two Japanese carriers went down without any enemy ship getting anywhere near firing distance, while their American counterparts had their big guns removed and replaced with far more useful anti-aircraft or dual-purpose weapons).
** It is worth noting that defensive armament on late-war aircraft carriers such as the American ''Essex'' class would include a battery of 5 inch guns in so-called "Dual Purpose" mounts - designed to engage either attacking aircraft or any smaller enemy ships that got inside their fighter screen. This is, however, more of a result of unified logistics (the Dual Purpose mounts in question are standardized on all new-constructions and extensive reconstructions of frontline warships in the US) than anything else. In practice, it was almost impossible for enemy surface combatants to get close enough to engage an aircraft carrier, due to their combination of being very fast and having dozens of planes on board to spot enemy ships miles away[[note]]Not to mention their usually heavy escort that ranged from destroyers to battleships[[/note]], making these guns' anti-ship capability merely academic in nature. Dual purpose mounts on carriers were used against surface ships in only one engagement: the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_off_Samar Battle off Samar]], and only because the escort carriers of Taffy 3 were unable to outrun the Center Force.

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* The [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ise_class_battleship Ise-class battleships]] ''Ise'' and ''Hyuga'' were converted into hybrid battleship-carriers (航空戦艦, Kōkū Senkan or Aviation Battleship, USN Classification: BBV) during World War Two, removing two of their rear turrets in exchange for small flight decks and a capacity of 22 seaplanes and divebombers. The small size of the flight deck meant that their utility as carriers are comparable to that of an escort carrier at best, and due to the lack of both planes and flight crews, their operational use ended up rather unsuccessful, to the point where the ships continued to be employed as pure battleships right up until their career as warships effectively ended during the Battle off Cape Engaño, where they as part of the pitiful remnants of Japanese aircraft carrier forces were overwhelmed by swarms of American fighter-bombers, and suffered the indignity of being reduced to floating anti-aircraft batteries for the remainder of their lives. In retrospect, their seaplanes would have been useful as scouts and anti-submarine patrols (both of which the Japanese '''desperately''' needed in order to make up for the US Navy's superior radar technology and extensive use of submarines), scenarios where the battleships' guns would be tucked away and therefore not interfere with aircraft operations. But then again, by the time the battleship-carriers came on-line, Japan already had trouble building enough of ''any'' plane[[note]]It plane.[[note]]It should be noted Japan's original plans were to convert ''all'' their battleships except ''Yamato'' and ''Musashi'' into full-fledged aircraft carriers, but that a lack of resources forced them to make that conversion instead.[[/note]].
[[/note]]
** The Imperial Japanese Navy operated also two heavy cruisers of the ''[[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone-class_cruiser Tone]]''-class, that had all their main guns mounted forward while their stern was designed to have facilities for launching seaplanes[[note]]Unlike seaplanes.[[note]]Unlike the other IJN ships, these cruisers were designed from the start for that role using the aircraft for long-range reconnaissance[[/note]]. reconnaissance.[[/note]] In 1943 the cruiser ''[[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_cruiser_Mogami_%281934%29#Respite_in_Japan Mogami]]'' was modified for a similar role, removing her aft guns in exchange for a deck with rails to operate floatplanes, and there were even [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ise-class_battleship#Conversion_to_hybrid_carriers plans]] in the IJN to give another old pair of battleships of theirs an ''Ise''-like configuration.
** Earlier aircraft carriers did approach a "cruiserstar" configuration -- American carriers ''Lexington'' and ''Saratoga'' and the Japanese carriers ''Akagi'' and ''Kaga'' (all four were converted from capital ships under construction in the wake of the London Naval Treaty: the first three from battlecruisers and ''Kaga'' from a battleship) were all fitted with heavy cruiser-caliber big guns and could theoretically fight on equal terms with anything smaller than a battleship or battlecruiser. In reality, the guns were often positioned where they were either of little use or actually ''detrimental'' to their aviation facilities [[note]] Firing [[note]]Firing the cruiser guns to the port side by ''Lexington'' or ''Saratoga'' would have ruined their respective flight decks, and ''Akagi'' and ''Kaga'' had their big guns moved to casemates just above the stern where they not only were practically useless but also added the threat of a magazine explosion close to the ship's very vulnerable rudder and propellers[[/note]] propellers.[[/note]] and the huge, unarmored flight decks made them vulnerable in a gun fight. The two Japanese carriers went down without any enemy ship getting anywhere near firing distance, while their American counterparts had their big guns removed and replaced with far more useful anti-aircraft or dual-purpose weapons).
** It is worth noting that defensive armament on late-war aircraft carriers such as the American ''Essex'' class would include a battery of 5 inch guns in so-called "Dual Purpose" mounts - designed to engage either attacking aircraft or any smaller enemy ships that got inside their fighter screen. This is, however, more of a result of unified logistics (the Dual Purpose mounts in question are standardized on all new-constructions and extensive reconstructions of frontline warships in the US) than anything else. In practice, it was almost impossible for enemy surface combatants to get close enough to engage an aircraft carrier, due to their combination of being very fast and having dozens of planes on board to spot enemy ships miles away[[note]]Not to mention their usually heavy escort that ranged from destroyers to battleships[[/note]], making these guns' anti-ship capability merely academic in nature. Dual purpose mounts on carriers were used against surface ships in only one engagement: the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_off_Samar Battle off Samar]], Samar,]] and only because the escort carriers of Taffy 3 were unable to outrun the Center Force.
16th Jul '17 4:21:31 PM WillKeaton
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* The TCS ''Tiger Claw'' in the film version of ''Film/WingCommander'' can launch wings of fighters and several boarding shuttles. When entering battle, though, after the fighters launch, the ship closes and engages DeflectorShields. However, the only weapons the ''Tiger Claw'' has appears to have are anti-ship torpedoes (completely PointDefenseless). The [[CatFolk Kilrathi]] have some sort of energy bolts as well as torps.

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* The TCS ''Tiger Claw'' in the film version of ''Film/WingCommander'' can launch wings of fighters and several boarding shuttles. When entering battle, though, after the fighters launch, the ship closes and engages DeflectorShields. However, the only weapons the ''Tiger Claw'' has appears to have are anti-ship torpedoes (completely PointDefenseless). The [[CatFolk Kilrathi]] have some sort of energy bolts as well as torps.torpedos.



* ''Literature/TroyRising'''s titular battlestation and its fellows, when [[Film/ReturnOfTheJedi fully armed and operational]], not only have enormous quantities of [[MacrossMissileMassacre missiles]] and [[BeamSpam lasers]] available to them, but also can hold within them an entire fleet of escort vessels, assault shuttles, and extensive support facilities like entire fabbers to repair battle damage and create more equipment, including missiles and escorting warships[[note]]the stations are also serving as Earth's shipyards, as being much easier to defend than shipyards in orbit around a world[[/note]].

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* ''Literature/TroyRising'''s titular battlestation and its fellows, when [[Film/ReturnOfTheJedi fully armed and operational]], not only have enormous quantities of [[MacrossMissileMassacre missiles]] and [[BeamSpam lasers]] available to them, but also can hold within them an entire fleet of escort vessels, assault shuttles, and extensive support facilities like entire fabbers to repair battle damage and create more equipment, including missiles and escorting warships[[note]]the warships.[[note]]The stations are also serving as Earth's shipyards, as being much easier to defend than shipyards in orbit around a world[[/note]].world.[[/note]]
16th Jul '17 4:17:32 PM WillKeaton
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In RealLife wet navies, it does not work. Battleships and carriers require very different paradigms; the former are built for taking and dealing out heavy damage, which demands certain armor and armament characteristics, such as compartmentalization to minimize damage spread but also cut into holding space. Fighter landing strips, hangars and the stores for their fuel and munitions would detract from this role, leaving you with a MasterOfNone that cannot fight or tank as well as a pure combatant or service as many fighters as a pure carrier. This didn't stop some attempts from being made. When initially launched in the late 1920s, the USS ''Lexington'' and ''Saratoga'' had a complement of cruiser-class 8-inch guns. Japan put similar 8-inch guns in casemates on the sides of ''Akagi'' and ''Kaga''. The reasoning behind the guns was so they could defend themselves if ambushed at night or in bad weather when planes couldn't fly, but they proved to be generally useless - the necessary high speed of carriers was a better defense. Japan also created hybrid Battleship/seaplane carriers out of a couple of old battleships, ''Ise'' and ''Hyuga'' in the wake of losses at the [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Midway Battle of Midway]]. The naysayers turned out to be right: ''Ise'' and ''Hyuga'' were total failures, and the large guns on the US ships interfered with flight operations if actually used, and they were removed in 1941. The 8-inch casemates were going to be removed from ''Kaga'' and ''Akagi'' after Midway, but the ships were sunk first. Other experiments never got even this far.

to:

In RealLife wet navies, it does not work. Battleships and carriers require very different paradigms; the former are built for taking and dealing out heavy damage, which demands certain armor and armament characteristics, such as compartmentalization to minimize damage spread but also cut into holding space. Fighter landing strips, hangars and the stores for their fuel and munitions would detract from this role, leaving you with a MasterOfNone that cannot fight or tank as well as a pure combatant or service as many fighters as a pure carrier. This didn't stop some attempts from being made. When initially launched in the late 1920s, the USS ''Lexington'' and ''Saratoga'' had a complement of cruiser-class 8-inch guns. Japan put similar 8-inch guns in casemates on the sides of ''Akagi'' and ''Kaga''. The reasoning behind the guns was so they could defend themselves if ambushed at night or in bad weather when planes couldn't fly, but they proved to be generally useless - the necessary high speed of carriers was a better defense. Japan also created hybrid Battleship/seaplane carriers out of a couple of old battleships, ''Ise'' and ''Hyuga'' in the wake of losses at the [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Midway Battle of Midway]]. Midway.]] The naysayers turned out to be right: ''Ise'' and ''Hyuga'' were total failures, and the large guns on the US ships interfered with flight operations if actually used, and they were removed in 1941. The 8-inch casemates were going to be removed from ''Kaga'' and ''Akagi'' after Midway, but the ships were sunk first. Other experiments never got even this far.
15th Jul '17 1:10:06 PM nombretomado
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*** Even further borne out by the fact that the American Lexington-class of carriers from WorldWarII were originally built to be battlecruisers.

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*** Even further borne out by the fact that the American Lexington-class of carriers from WorldWarII UsefulNotes/WorldWarII were originally built to be battlecruisers.
14th Jul '17 10:37:57 AM ChronoLegion
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* Carriers in ''VideoGame/StarlightTactics'' are this, such as the ''Yangtze River'' or ''Xerxes'' classes. While they can launch a number of fighters, they primarily deal damage with their powerful main guns. They are also heavily armored, allowing them to go toe-to-toe with dedicated battleships.
27th Jun '17 4:58:06 PM Bossman
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** Type 1: Ise and Hyuuga, can be remodeled into Aviation Battleships, just like their RealLife counterparts. Additionally, their predecessors Fusou and Yamashiro can also be remodeled in this fashion. [[labelnote:Historical note]]There were plans to remodel the ''Fusou''-class ships after the ''Ise''-class conversions were complete, but urgent needs for surface combatants and a lack of planes prevented this.[[/labelnote]] They lose some firepower (until Fusou and Yamashiro get their second remodel) in exchange for being able to carry seaplane fighter-bombers and specialized anti-submarine aircraft. This makes them useful for providing air superiority in situations where a carrier can't be brought, and for fighting submarines where other battleships would be floating targets.

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** Type 1: Ise and Hyuuga, can be remodeled into Aviation Battleships, just like their RealLife counterparts. Additionally, their predecessors Fusou and Yamashiro can also be remodeled in this fashion. [[labelnote:Historical note]]There were plans to remodel the ''Fusou''-class ships after the ''Ise''-class conversions were complete, but urgent needs for surface combatants and a lack of planes prevented this.[[/labelnote]] They lose some firepower (until Fusou and Yamashiro get their second remodel) in exchange for being able to carry seaplane fighter-bombers and specialized anti-submarine aircraft.auto-gyros. This makes them useful for providing air superiority in situations where a carrier can't be brought, and for fighting submarines where other battleships would be floating targets.


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** The Abyssals get into this too: the [[BossInMookClothing Re-class battleship]] is a type 1 that one-ups everything with battleship cannons and armor, a torpedo cruiser's complement of torpedoes and at least 140 fighter-bombers. The elite version has a torpedo launcher that works in the opening torpedo phase, allowing her to [[TheComputerIsACheatingBastard attack in every phase of the battle]]. The Armored Carrier Demon/Princess is a type 2 as her major focus is fighters and dive bombers, with only a single slot for battleship guns. The Southern Demon/War Demon/War Princess is a type 1 that only carries fighters, except in her Southern War Demon form where she swaps out one of her guns for a bomber complement.
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