History Main / StrawVulcan

29th Jul '16 1:52:44 PM morenohijazo
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* ''ComicBook/TomStrong'': Averted by Quetzalcoatl-9, a supercomputer created by parallel-universe Aztecs. He states straight-up that he is trusting Tom because it's the logical thing to do; they're in a textbook Prisoner's Dilemma, and trust, on average, yields slightly better results.

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* ''ComicBook/TomStrong'': Averted by Quetzalcoatl-9, a supercomputer created by parallel-universe Aztecs. He states straight-up that he is trusting Tom because it's the logical thing to do; they're in a textbook Prisoner's Dilemma, PrisonersDilemma, and trust, on average, yields slightly better results.



* Played truly bizarrely in one route of ''Zero Escape VisualNovel/VirtuesLastReward'', where Phi, in discussing the Prisoner's Dilemma and Ambidex Game, continually refers to "Betray" as the "logical" and "rational" decision... despite going in depth on how it's sub-optimal for both the group and the individual, meaning that it's ''illogical'' and ''irrational'' by real-world rather than Straw Vulcan definitions of logic, unless for some reason you were applying logic with the goal of "Make the least advantageous decision."

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* Played truly bizarrely in one route of ''Zero Escape VisualNovel/VirtuesLastReward'', where Phi, in discussing the Prisoner's Dilemma PrisonersDilemma and Ambidex Game, continually refers to "Betray" as the "logical" and "rational" decision... despite going in depth on how it's sub-optimal for both the group and the individual, meaning that it's ''illogical'' and ''irrational'' by real-world rather than Straw Vulcan definitions of logic, unless for some reason you were applying logic with the goal of "Make the least advantageous decision."



* Morrigan from VideoGame/DragonAgeOrigins has this role in your party. The most striking example being her objection to help out with the situation in Redcliffe, because it presents a huge delay in your quest to stop the Darkspawn, despite the fact that helping them would get the Grey Wardens some crucial allies for their fight against the Darkspawn. [[spoiler: It turns out later that she was deliberately conditioned to not want to help people while growing up, and her arguments are rationalizations.]]

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* Morrigan from VideoGame/DragonAgeOrigins ''VideoGame/DragonAgeOrigins'' has this role in your party. The most striking example being her objection to help out with the situation in Redcliffe, because it presents a huge delay in your quest to stop the Darkspawn, despite the fact that helping them would get the Grey Wardens some crucial allies for their fight against the Darkspawn. [[spoiler: It turns out later that she was deliberately conditioned to not want to help people while growing up, and her arguments are rationalizations.]]
20th Jul '16 9:42:03 PM ImpudentInfidel
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* Morrigan from VideoGame/DragonAgeOrigins has this role in your party. The most striking example being her objection to help out with the situation in Redcliffe, because it presents a huge delay in your quest to stop the Darkspawn, despite the fact that helping them would get the Grey Wardens some crucial allies for their fight against the Darkspawn.

to:

* Morrigan from VideoGame/DragonAgeOrigins has this role in your party. The most striking example being her objection to help out with the situation in Redcliffe, because it presents a huge delay in your quest to stop the Darkspawn, despite the fact that helping them would get the Grey Wardens some crucial allies for their fight against the Darkspawn. [[spoiler: It turns out later that she was deliberately conditioned to not want to help people while growing up, and her arguments are rationalizations.]]
17th Jul '16 3:59:08 PM Discar
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** "The Ice Warriors" features a completely logical computer that the scientists are dependent on, that is completely useless once the OutsideContextVillain shows up as there is no perfect solution and it has not been programmed to anticipate this sort of thing. Everyone else in the setting is completely aware that the computer is useless, except for, unfortunately, [[PointyHairedBoss the person actually in charge]] who remains slavishly devoted to it.

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** "The Ice Warriors" features a completely logical computer that the scientists are dependent on, that is completely useless once the OutsideContextVillain OutsideContextProblem shows up as there is no perfect solution and it has not been programmed to anticipate this sort of thing. Everyone else in the setting is completely aware that the computer is useless, except for, unfortunately, [[PointyHairedBoss the person actually in charge]] who remains slavishly devoted to it.
1st Jul '16 9:26:27 PM samboy0000
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Added DiffLines:

* Morrigan from VideoGame/DragonAgeOrigins has this role in your party. The most striking example being her objection to help out with the situation in Redcliffe, because it presents a huge delay in your quest to stop the Darkspawn, despite the fact that helping them would get the Grey Wardens some crucial allies for their fight against the Darkspawn.
5th Jun '16 9:04:16 PM N.Harmonik
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* Sokka of WesternAnimation/AvatarTheLastAirbender is often put in this position when the Gaang is trying to help people. However, it's subverted in "The Fortuneteller", where they have to convince the people that the [[spoiler:volcano will erupt]]. Although a lot of times Sokka will act on instinct and emotion. Oftentimes he is actually very practical and logical in the non-straw sense. Over the course of the series though, he grows out of it. By the time of ''Legend Of Korra,'' when Sokka is a judge, his response to [[spoiler: a crime-boss being accused of blood-bending without a full moon,]] is more or less, "Yes, it's supposed to be impossible, but I've seen a lot of weird, seemingly-impossible crap in my life, and a ''lot'' of victims have come forth, so let's discuss it."

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* Sokka of WesternAnimation/AvatarTheLastAirbender is often put in this position when the Gaang is trying to help people. However, it's subverted in "The Fortuneteller", where they have to convince the people that the [[spoiler:volcano will erupt]]. Although a lot of times Sokka will act on instinct and emotion. Oftentimes emotion, oftentimes, he is actually very practical and logical in the non-straw sense. Over the course of the series though, he grows out of it. By the time of ''Legend Of Korra,'' when Sokka is a judge, his response to [[spoiler: a crime-boss being accused of blood-bending without a full moon,]] is more or less, "Yes, it's supposed to be impossible, but I've seen a lot of weird, seemingly-impossible crap in my life, and a ''lot'' of victims have come forth, so let's discuss it."
5th Jun '16 9:01:17 PM N.Harmonik
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** Prowl plays the trope in a more straight-forward way. He is logical to a fault. This is presented like something good, since he is one of the best Autobot tacticians... and like something bad, since Prowl is downright unable to stand illogical things or let himself deal with their existence. He is capable stay paralized in the heat of a battle as he tries making sense out of whatever has got him perplexed. The Autobot's first bout against the Decepticons in [[ComicBook/TheTransformers the Marvel comics]] is a good example of it. As the Decepticons were shooting at them and its squad was scrambling around, Prowl remained still as he tried to understand why the nearby cars (they were in a parking) were not running away.

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** Prowl plays the trope in a more straight-forward way. He is logical to a fault. This is presented like something good, since he is one of the best Autobot tacticians... and like something bad, since Prowl is downright unable to stand illogical things or let himself deal with their existence. He is capable stay paralized of staying paralyzed in the heat of a battle as he tries making sense out of whatever has got him perplexed. The Autobot's first bout against the Decepticons in [[ComicBook/TheTransformers the Marvel comics]] is a good example of it. As the Decepticons were shooting at them and its squad was scrambling around, Prowl remained still as he tried to understand why the nearby cars (they were in a parking) were not running away.



** [[spoiler:V.I.K.I.'s motivations]] are entire rooted in logical thought. Sonny even comments that he can understand the logic behind the plan perfectly, "but it just seems too... heartless." [[spoiler:V.I.K.I.]]'s motivations are logical for her premise, it's her premise/goal that is wrong. She is looking to save lives at all costs, but one could argue there was a much better way to go about the coup that wouldn't set up an us-vs-them mentality that would encourage humans to fight to the death. The problem is that humans want more than just personal survival. We would rather accept small risk if it means enjoyment or a meaning in life, and would be inadvertently encouraged to die for freedom when it's an AndIMustScream world dictated by robots. If she had started out with the premise of "I must preserve human happiness" instead of "I must preserve human life" things would have been far different. Of course, life, unlike happiness, can be quantified.

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** [[spoiler:V.I.K.I.'s motivations]] are entire entirely rooted in logical thought. Sonny even comments that he can understand the logic behind the plan perfectly, "but it just seems too... heartless." [[spoiler:V.I.K.I.]]'s motivations are logical for her premise, it's her premise/goal that is wrong. She is looking to save lives at all costs, but one could argue there was a much better way to go about the coup that wouldn't set up an us-vs-them mentality that would encourage humans to fight to the death. The problem is that humans want more than just personal survival. We would rather accept small risk if it means enjoyment or a meaning in life, and would be inadvertently encouraged to die for freedom when it's an AndIMustScream world dictated by robots. If she had started out with the premise of "I must preserve human happiness" instead of "I must preserve human life" things would have been far different. Of course, life, unlike happiness, can be quantified.
2nd May '16 5:06:35 PM Discar
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* In ''Literature/TheStormlightArchive'' King Taravingian is under a curse/blessing that causes his intelligence to fluctuate and he becomes less compassionate and moral the smarter he gets, with the result that every morning he takes an intelligence test of his own devising. His ability to change policy is dependent on the results of the test, and becomes restricted if he's too stupid ''or'' too smart. Fortunately, this precaution was put in place before he came up with that plan to make everyone below a certain level of intelligence kill themselves. He does note that the inverse relationship between intelligence and emotion isn't how it works for most people, it's part of his condition.

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* In ''Literature/TheStormlightArchive'' King Taravingian Taravangian is under a curse/blessing that causes his intelligence to fluctuate and he becomes less compassionate and moral the smarter he gets, with the result that every morning he takes an intelligence test of his own devising. His ability to change policy is dependent on the results of the test, and becomes restricted if he's too stupid ''or'' too smart. Fortunately, this precaution was put in place before he came up with that plan to make everyone below a certain level of intelligence kill themselves. He does note that the inverse relationship between intelligence and emotion isn't how it works for most people, it's part of his condition.
24th Apr '16 10:41:35 AM Discar
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->''A mind all logic is like a knife all blade: it makes the hand bleed that wields it.''

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->''A ->''"A mind all logic is like a knife all blade: it makes the hand bleed that wields it.''"''
11th Feb '16 10:00:28 PM Avani
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11th Feb '16 10:00:13 PM Avani
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* The Straw Vulcan will often commit the FallacyFallacy, dismissing a conclusion simply because it was based on invalid logic or on emotion. While the fact that an argument contains a fallacy is grounds for dismissing that argument, it does not prove that the conclusion is wrong. Basically, you can get the [[RightForTheWrongReasons right answer for the wrong reason]].
* The Straw Vulcan will only accept a guaranteed success. A plan that only has a chance of success is not "logical", even if the chance is the highest possible. This is actually a well-known ''error'' in logic, called the PerfectSolutionFallacy. Spock and Tuvok both did this regularly in the various Star Trek works. Although they didn't say it outright, whenever they mentioned having calculated low odds for the success of a given plan, it was obvious that they did not believe said plan should be attempted. This was typically responded to by one of the humans saying the equivalent of, "damn the torpedoes!" which was intended to prove that said human characters were inherently irrational.
* The story assumes that anything which doesn't fit a particular mathematical model of logic isn't "logical". Related to the PerfectSolutionFallacy, again, because you can only find truly perfect 1=1 solutions and conceive of perfect circles in abstract mathematics.
* Related to the PerfectSolutionFallacy: The Straw Vulcan will proceed to disturb everyone with doomsaying that their current plan "only has a 10% chance for us to succeed", and then the emotional protagonist proceeds to disprove him by saying "NeverTellMeTheOdds" and succeeding. Actually, when all other options are depleted, the plan that has a 10% chance of success is logically superior to other courses of action that have less chance of success. (And presumably doing nothing means a 0% chance) Bothering people with remarks about low chances of success in critical situations may degrade their morale and thus further diminish said chances, so it doesn't make logical sense to quote poor odds unless there's a better option that can be taken.[[note]]Or the "logical" character forgot to factor the other characters' personalities into the equation, so telling the others it's unlikely to work actually [[InspirationalInsult makes it MORE likely they'll try harder than usual and therefore succeed]], just to prove the "logical" character wrong.[[/note]] Pessimism for pessimism's sake in a time of need simply isn't logical, no need to be the sensitive guy of the cast to figure ''that'' out.

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* The Straw Vulcan will often commit the FallacyFallacy, dismissing a conclusion simply because it was based on invalid logic or on emotion. While the The fact that an argument contains a fallacy is grounds for dismissing that argument, it does not prove that the conclusion is wrong. Basically, you can get the [[RightForTheWrongReasons right answer for the wrong reason]].
wrong.
* The Straw Vulcan will only accept a guaranteed success. A plan that only has a chance of success is not "logical", even if the chance is the highest possible. This is actually a well-known ''error'' in logic, called the PerfectSolutionFallacy. Spock and Tuvok both did this regularly in the various Star Trek works. Although they didn't say it outright, whenever they mentioned having calculated low odds for the success of a given plan, it was obvious that they did not believe said plan should be attempted. This was typically responded to by one of the humans saying the equivalent of, "damn the torpedoes!" which was intended to prove that said human characters were inherently irrational.
* The story assumes that anything which doesn't fit a particular mathematical model of logic isn't "logical". Related to the PerfectSolutionFallacy, again, because you can only find truly perfect 1=1 solutions and conceive of perfect circles in abstract mathematics.
* Related to the PerfectSolutionFallacy:
The Straw Vulcan will proceed to disturb everyone with doomsaying that their current plan "only has a 10% chance for us to succeed", and then the emotional protagonist proceeds to disprove him by saying "NeverTellMeTheOdds" and succeeding. Actually, when all other options are depleted, the plan that has a 10% chance of success is logically superior to other courses of action that have less chance of success. (And presumably doing nothing means a 0% chance) Bothering people with remarks about low chances of success in critical situations may degrade their morale and thus further diminish said chances, so it doesn't make logical sense to quote poor odds unless there's a better option that can be taken.[[note]]Or the "logical" character forgot to factor the other characters' personalities into the equation, so telling the others it's unlikely to work actually [[InspirationalInsult makes it MORE likely they'll try harder than usual and therefore succeed]], just to prove the "logical" character wrong.[[/note]] Pessimism for pessimism's sake in a time of need simply isn't logical, no need to be the sensitive guy of the cast to figure ''that'' out.



* The Straw Vulcan will be completely unable or unwilling to plan for unexpected and even illogical behavior from other parties. Perhaps the most common flaw of the Straw Vulcan is their inability to draw upon any knowledge which comes from being an emotional being. They seem unable to factor emotions, or any associated information, into their analysis; they are not so much "logical" beings as beings without a functional understanding of the nature of emotional processes.
* The Straw Vulcan, and by extension all logical thinkers, will be uncreative, or at least less so than [[HotBlooded emotional people]]. He will be unable to come up with an imaginative answer to an unusual problem, while the [[TheKirk emotional protagonist]], often despite having no real experience with this kind of situation, will be able to save the day. This is supposed to show that "logic" is inferior to "emotion" in that emotion can provide [[TakeAThirdOption a third and more favorable option]] to the logician's bad and worse options. Strictly speaking, this isn't so much about logic vs. emotion as it is about linear thinking vs. lateral thinking.
* The Straw Vulcan assumes that self-sacrifice isn't "logical", even though there can easily be situations where self-sacrifice is "logical".
* A Straw Vulcan will have to consider everything about the problem in full detail even in time-critical situations, while the emotional person will make the snap decisions necessary in this sort of situation. This will demonstrate how the "logical" Straw Vulcan is useless under pressure and therefore inferior to the emotional protagonist. The obvious flaw is that it's patently ''illogical'' to ignore time constraints in this manner. The technical term for this is "bounded rationality", as opposed to "classic rationality" which ''does'' assume that you have infinite time to gather information and consider.
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