History Main / SlidingScaleOfUnavoidableVersusUnforgivable

*** Yet another factor hotly contested is whether the cities actually were valid military targets. Hiroshima was the location of an Army Barracks used to induct and train recruits (ie conscripts). Nagasaki was the primary location where much of the Imperial Japanese Navy's munitions, particularly torpedoes.

*** Yet another factor hotly contested is whether the cities actually were valid military targets. Hiroshima was the location of an Army Barracks used to induct and train recruits (ie conscripts). Nagasaki was the primary location where much of the Imperial Japanese Navy's munitions, particularly torpedoes.

[[folder:LiveActionTV]]
* ''Series/StarTrekDeepSpaceNine'': This is what made "In The Pale Moonlight" one of the darkest episodes in ''Franchise/StarTrek'' history. The casualty list in the war against the Dominion gets so bad, that Sisko feels he has no choice but to go against his Federation principles to trick the Romulans with a fake offensive against them in order to get their support. And when the trick is found out by the Romulan sent to verify the information, [[spoiler:Garak sets up their ship to explode, and when the Romulans search the ship, they will find the fake info and come to the conclusion that the data corruption of the info was due to the explosion.]] In the end, Sisko decides that having the stain on his conscience is worth having fewer lives lost.
* ''Series/StarTrekTheOriginalSeries'': In "A City on the Edge of Forever", Kirk had to make a terrible choice -- [[spoiler:allow a wonderfully gifted, compassionate, forward-thinking woman to die, or fail to save history from devolving into a CrapsackWorld.]] Kirk rather uncharacteristically didn't TakeAThirdOption, such as, say, trusting her with the truth.
* ''Series/DoctorWho'': Seeing the number of times you can make the Doctor contemplate this scale is the pastime of the show's writers, especially since the reboot. The Doctor had to kill (technically, 'erase from continuity') his entire race in order to protect the universe from destruction, and even though he knows it was the right thing to do, he still feels guilt-ridden. Time and time again, he is forced to make the SadisticChoice of killing and committing genocide for the greater good. On the whole, the show tends to fall on the IDidWhatIHadToDo side, although the fact that the Doctor is ''capable'' of such decisions is still depicted as terrifying.
* ''Series/{{Torchwood}}'' pulls it now and then too, but especially in ''Children of Earth'', where Jack Harkness sacrifices his own grandson in order to prevent a tenth of all the world's children from being sold into perpetual slavery for an alien race that wants to use their body chemicals as recreational drugs. Throws the whole WouldntHurtAChild thing up for inspection. And WordOfGod says he couldn't even have done that had his MoralityChain not bitten the dust in the previous episode.
* ''Series/{{Class}}'' also raises the question of when genocide becomes acceptable as a recurring question throughout the first series. [[YourTerroristsAreOurFreedomFighters Ms. Quill]] continually argues that [[LastOfHisKind Charlie]], the Prince of Rhodia, needs to use the superweapon he has access to exterminate [[ScaryDogmaticAliens the entire]] [[AlwaysChaoticEvil Shadow Kin race,]] while Charlie refuses to use it. [[spoiler:The heroes manage to drive the Shadow Kin back without violence twice, but when they come back a third time, attempt a full-scale invasion and start killing the families of half the main cast, the weapon is used and their planet gets imploded. This is presented on the Unavoidable side.]]

* This Trope is more or less the entire point of ''Series/BreakingBad,'' and the plot could be condensed down to Walter White slowly moving from one side of the scale to the other. In the beginning of the series he starts cooking methamphetamine to leave his family a large inheritance and pay for his cancer treatments, but as the series progresses he commits more and more heinous acts with less and less justifiability. People may disagree on what his MoralEventHorizon was, and at what point he turned into an outright VillainProtagonist, but there's no doubt he had one and by the end of the series that's what he is.
** Throughout the series, he uses the excuse "Everything I did, I did for my family." At the end, he finally admits the truth: "Everything I did, I did for me."

* ''Film/{{Watchmen}}'' debates this trope. Is [[spoiler:Ozymandias's plan necessary enough to justify the mass murder of millions]]? Rorschach knows his answer, and the others, though horrified, all seem ready to make the pragmatic choice given the state of things. Doc Manhattan doesn't weigh in except to possibly dismiss the concept of the ends justifying the means (since there is no real "end"). "In the end" it's left for the audience to decide.
* This is pretty much the point of the ''Vengeance Trilogy'' (''Film/SympathyForMrVengeance'', ''Film/{{Oldboy|2003}}'', and ''Film/SympathyForLadyVengeance''), where you're meant to feel sympathy for the antagonists and question the deservedness of the protagonists' revenge, while both cross seemingly many a MoralEventHorizon in order to pursue their goals, only for it to just about excuse everyone based on what they've been put through by each other...
** ...well, apart from in [[spoiler:''Film/SympathyForLadyVengeance'']], where the antagonist is never presented as anything but evil, but the deservedness of the protagonist's revenge is still called into question by the end.

* In ''Film/TheBourneLegacy'', Byer states that the actions of Outcome agents (and likely those like them) are "Morally indefensible, and absolutely necessary". He [[JumpingOffTheSlipperySlope jumps off the slippery slope]] when he takes part in the cover-up when Outcome and several other such operations start having their mission corrupted by sinister powers in the US intel community and then gets exposed by more morally upright powers.
* ''Film/ExMachina'' AVA's decision to [[spoiler:leave her would-be rescuer, Caleb, to die]] was thought to be necessary by the writer/director and unnecessary by pretty much everyone else.

* ''LightNovel/AiNoKusabi'' brushes the issue at the very end concerning how both of Riki's love interests handle the conflict over him. Iason is portrayed as more sympathetic despite having been a selfish VillainProtagonist and AntiVillain during whole story due to his late positive actions. Meanwhile, Guy ended up becoming a WellIntentionedExtremist FallenHero and possibly a TragicVillain that made things go FromBadToWorse. His actions were avoidable but are they forgivable? Did he cross the MoralEventHorizon when he was determined to "save" Riki?
** That's how Guy likely viewed the situation, but arguably this counts more as a subversion. Guy ignored Riki's own will and what he wanted; despite claiming he acted for Riki's sake, his decision was really about himself instead, choosing the least horrible outcome that ''he'' could live with. Guy's terrible extremism was driven by his inability to accept that Riki rejected him to be with someone else (essentially), and his myopia and jealousy led him to a decision where he could justify forcibly taking Riki away from Iason - ostensibly for Riki's own good.

* Wiki/SCPFoundation: [[http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-231 Procedure 110-Montauk]].

** Then there is the question of how to deal with the Reapers? Do you KillEmAll but in the process doom every [[ArtificialIntelligence synthetic life form]] in the galaxy? Including your trusted friend EDI, who might have even learned to love? Or do you reprogram the Reapers to obey a new controlling intelligence based on your own thoughts, but [[HeroicSacrifice die in the process]] and possibly consign the Galaxy to live under an oppressive rule forever? Or do you choose to pacify the Reapers and invalidate their PretextForWar by inflicting [[CyberneticsWillEatYourSoul cybernetic augmentation of every living creature's DNA without its consent?]] And bring into sentience [[WasOnceAMan cybernetic]] [[BodyHorror monstrosities created by the Reapers to terrorize and subjugate populations.]] And allow the Reapers to [[KarmaHoudini get off scot-free on about twenty thousand instances of galactic genocide?]] Which of these is an acceptable trade off?

* In the lead up to ''ComicBook/InfiniteCrisis'' Max Lord brainwashed Franchise/{{Superman}} into thinking different superheroes were actually supervillains murdering his loved ones, to the point where he almost killed Franchise/{{Batman}} because he thought Batman was ComicBook/{{Darkseid}} killing ComicBook/LoisLane. After ComicBook/MartianManhunter confirmed the brainwashing was too ingrained to be overwritten, ComicBook/WonderWoman went after Max Lord directly to find out how to fix Superman. Lord instead used his powers to control Superman into almost killing Wonder Woman, and threatened to use Superman to murder everyone he ever cared about. Wonder Woman was able to subdue Superman for a few seconds, then used her Lasso of Truth to compel Lord to tell her how to fix Superman. Under the effects of the Lasso, Max Lord admitted the only way to save Superman was to kill Lord. With only a few seconds before Superman would be under Lord's influence again and no way to properly contain Superman, Wonder Woman snapped Max Lord's neck. For saving Superman and everyone he ever cared about, Superman and Batman gave Wonder Woman grief for breaking their ThouShallNotKill rule, a rule she never subscribed to.

* The DrivingQuestion of ''VideoGame/HeavyRain'': "How far would you go for someone you love?" In short, would you commit increasingly immoral acts if they offered a slight chance of saving your child?

Closely related not only to SlidingScaleOfIdealismVersusCynicism, but also to SlidingScaleOfSillinessVersusSeriousness and MoralDissonance. A highly idealistic plot might very well feature brave heroes who slay countless humans or humanoids, the mass-murder or even [[WouldBeRudeToSayGenocide genocide]] being [[HandWave Hand Waved]] by dismissing the victims as AlwaysChaoticEvil.

-->--''Songs of Earth and Power'', Creator/GregBear

* ''VideoGame/MassEffect2'' has a very unique case of the series in the Arrival [[DownloadableContent DLC]]. In this mission, Shepard is [[spoiler:forced to blow up a Mass Relay and subsequently destroy an entire star system containing 300,000 Batarians, in order to delay the immanent Reaper invasion which otherwise would have been ''immediate''.]] What makes this unique is that [[spoiler:[[ButThouMust the player has no choice in the matter]], which is a huge subversion for the series. The fact Shepard is ''forced'' to blow up the Relay only highlights the desperation of the situation; and for once, [[TakeAThirdOption there is no third option]].]]

* A very common, indeed cliched, element to appear in ''TabletopGame/DungeonsAndDragons'' for its first three (and a half?) editions when game-masters dealt with the Paladin class. That class paid for divine grace and dispensation with a strict code, which far too many Dungeon Masters regarded as a requirement for absolute perfection. All too often, attempts to introduce 'moral quandaries' would take the form of problems that could only be resolved by violating the code. Unlike literature and film, the ability to TakeAThirdOption was not always available (or, in the case of particularly poor Dungeon Masters, permitted.) This has led to many, many 'recreational' hours being wasted in disgruntled debates. More recent editions of the game hold the Paladin to less arduous standards and de-emphasize the referee's ability to remove the Paladin's powers.

Also, when the Sliding Scale Of Unavoidable Versus Unforgivable comes up in a story, it can be either intentionally or indirectly. It's intentional when the writers decide to make the situation [[GreyAndGreyMorality ambiguous and debatable]]. It's indirect when the situation is intended to be [[BlackAndWhiteMorality unambiguous]], but the reader/viewer goes [[ValuesDissonance "waaait a minute"]]. However, one can never really be sure what version was the intended one, considering that WordOfGod is vulnerable to GettingCrapPastTheRadar as well as blatant {{RetCon}}s.

** [[spoiler:Harry]] eventually crosses this line wholesale in [[Literature/{{Changes}} one of the later books]] [[spoiler:by finally becoming the Winter Knight]]. Though he believes it was unavoidable, in [[Literature/GhostStory]] the next book he gets convinced that it was unforgivable, based on the decisions that [[spoiler:Molly made in response]].

* In Literature/TheDresdenFiles, Harry[[spoiler:'s subconscious]] makes this argument, pointing out that if [[spoiler:Harry]] takes the high road in Dead Beat, thousands of people will die.

** [[spoiler:Harry]] eventually crosses this line wholesale in one of the later books [[spoiler:by finally becoming the Winter Knight]]. Though he believes it was unavoidable, in the next book he gets convinced that it was unforgivable, based on the decisions that [[spoiler:Molly made in response]].

** [[spoiler:Ghost Story]] turns out to be a massive BatmanGambit to teach Harry that it's possible to avert this trope.

-->-- ''Songs of Earth and Power'', Creator/GregBear

* In the lead up to ''ComicBook/InfiniteCrisis'' Max Lord brainwashed Franchise/{{Superman}} into thinking different superheroes were actually supervillains murdering his loved ones, to the point where he almost killed Franchise/{{Batman}} because he thought Batman was ComicBook/{{Darkseid}} killing ComicBook/LoisLane. After ComicBook/MartianManhunter confirmed the brainwashing was too ingrained to be overwritten, ComicBook/WonderWoman went after Max Lord directly to find out how to fix Superman. Lord instead used his powers to control Superman into almost killing Wonder Woman, and threatened to use Superman to murder everyone he ever cared about. Wonder Woman was able to subdue Superman for a few seconds, then used her Lasso of Truth to compel Lord to tell her how to fix Superman. Under the effects of the Lasso, Max Lord admitted the only way to save Superman was to kill Lord. With only a few seconds before Superman would be under Lord's influence again and no way to properly contain Superman, Wonder Woman snapped Max Lord's neck. For saving Superman and everyone he ever cared about Superman and Batman gave Wonder Woman grief for breaking their ThouShallNotKill rule, a rule she never subscribed to.

*** Moral Worth: On the trolley, four serial killers and a guy who [[ArsonMurderAndJaywalking spoiled]] BreakingBad [[ArsonMurderAndJaywalking for you]]. On the side track, a scientist who just cured cancer and has put the cure into the public domain so anyone can get it for a pittance.