History Headscratchers / TheSecretOfNIMH

[[folder:The Sequel]]
* Martin's character design in the sequel when he's evil is nothing like his usual character design other than his eye color. And even then, Martin can somehow control the appearance of his eyes, like the hypno spiral. His fur is much darker. He had a cream colored pelt and a white shape on his chest (you know, the type in every animated show with a talking animal) but now he has dark gray (green in some shots) fur. Who does his dye job? They did a crappy job sense his fur color changes back. He seems (he's wearing a cloak) to have lost weight and grown taller. Fine, I can understand that but these he then shrinks and gains back the weight. And now he has a British accent. Fine, Stockholm Syndrome would explain that if the humans were British. But he becomes American again once he's good and his voice also becomes that of a fifteen year old as opposed to Evil Martin's quite adult voice. How does that work?!
** I don't consider the sequel to be canon. I know it technically is, but it's so out of touch with the original. See if that helps.
*** I don't consider it good form to give a response that boils down to "it doesn't matter, because it's {{Fanon Discontinuity}}" because it tends to stifle discussion. That's the right of anyone here, though, so, [[ShrugTake meh]]. To the original troper, I say that it's an EvilMakeover, which happens enough to be a supertrope of its own. [[WatsonianVersusDoylist In-story]], because [[DarkIsEvil Evil Is Dark]] according to [[AWizardDidIt whatever magic gave him the hypnosis eyes]], a more menacing expression and posture can do a lot to change someone (especially if they exude an aura of evil or at least [[{{Disneyfication}} not-niceness]] a la [[Literature/TheStrangeCaseOfDrJekyllAndMrHyde Mr. Hyde]]), and that sort of British accent is [[EvilIsCool cool]]. Out-of-story, because he [[SarcasmMode needed to]] be [[EvilMakesYouMonstrous turned into]] an ObviouslyEvil MoustacheTwirlingVillain so [[ViewersAreMorons the poor, dull-witted kids wouldn't be confused]] about why Martin was suddenly rampaging around and being a mean person, and be happy when he turned [[FamilyUnfriendlyAesop normal]].
*** [[WildMassGuessing Maybe the DNA he was given in the lab to make him smart had been derived from a British-bred lab mouse with a different fur color?]]
*** Just speculating, but considering how Martin appeared to have become something of an evil Necodemus, complete with robes and psychic powers, and how during his Villain song he appears to switch back and forth between his old and new appearance, while changing the background into an evil candyland, it's possible his change in appearance is some kind of mental illusion to intimidate Tim, either psychically or through the use of some new device he created. Kind of how some people speculate that the God-Emperor of 40k didn't actually look half as impressive as he appeared, and that his golden armor and blinding aura were illusion.

* Now to quote the old name of this page, this one Just Bugs Me. Where is the electricity gone in this movie ?!? In the original, the whole point of the rat is that they know complicated mechanics, especially electricity lighting and the likes. At the end of the movie they're on their way to Thorn Valley where they are supposed to rebuild their civilization but this time without stealing. And then… in this sequel, the rats barely have any complicated or sophisticated machines. We see some cartoony clockwork in the Parade scene, and Mr Ages's lab still contains some chemistry items, but no electricity whatsoever !?! Granted, maybe that's because the writers of the sequel paid too much attention about the rat's remarks that "stealing electricity from the farmer is wrong", but couldn't they make electricity generators/dynamos using steam power or a dam on the river we ''do'' see in Thorn Valley ? And even if they can't, electricity aside, their Thorn Valley building still look too primitive and rural compared to what the rats were able to do under the Rosebush (the Council room and all that).
** And please, what I'm asking for is some sort of canon/plausible in-universe explanation, not "the writers didn't pay attention" or the likes.
[[/folder]]

* A meta one: where is the electricity gone in this movie ?!? In the original, the whole point of the rat is that they know complicated mechanics, especially electricity lighting and the likes. At the end of the movie they're on their way to Thorn Valley where they are supposed to rebuild their civilization but this time without stealing. And then… in this sequel, the rats barely have any complicated or sophisticated machines. We see some cartoony clockwork in the Parade scene, and Mr Ages's lab still contains some chemistry items, but no electricity whatsoever !?! Granted, maybe that's because the writers of the sequel paid too much attention about the rat's remarks that "stealing electricity from the farmer is wrong", but couldn't they make electricity generators/dynamos using steam power or a dam on the river we ''do'' see in Thorn Valley ? And even if they can't, electricity aside, their Thorn Valley building still look too primitive and rural compared to what the rats were able to do under the Rosebush (the Council room and all that).

* Martin's character design in the sequel when he's evil is nothing like his usual character design other than his eye color. And even then, Martin can somehow control the appearance of his eyes, like the hypno spiral. His fur is much darker. He had a cream colored pelt and a white shape on his chest (you know, the type in every animated show with a talking animal) but now he has dark gray (green in some shots) fur. Who does his dye job? They did a crappy job sense his fur color changes back. He seems (he's wearing a cloak) to have lost weight and grown taller. Fine, I can understand that but these he then shrinks and gains back the weight. And now he has a British accent. Fine, Stockholm Syndrome would explain that if the humans were British. But he becomes American again once he's good and his voice also becomes that of a fifteen year old as opposed to Evil Martin's quite adult voice. How does that work?!
** I don't consider the sequel to be canon. I know it technically is, but it's so out of touch with the original. See if that helps.
*** I don't consider it good form to give a response that boils down to "it doesn't matter, because it's {{Fanon Discontinuity}}" because it tends to stifle discussion. That's the right of anyone here, though, so, [[ShrugTake meh]]. To the original troper, I say that it's an EvilMakeover, which happens enough to be a supertrope of its own. [[WatsonianVersusDoylist In-story]], because [[DarkIsEvil Evil Is Dark]] according to [[AWizardDidIt whatever magic gave him the hypnosis eyes]], a more menacing expression and posture can do a lot to change someone (especially if they exude an aura of evil or at least [[{{Disneyfication}} not-niceness]] a la [[Literature/TheStrangeCaseOfDrJekyllAndMrHyde Mr. Hyde]]), and that sort of British accent is [[EvilIsCool cool]]. Out-of-story, because he [[SarcasmMode needed to]] be [[EvilMakesYouMonstrous turned into]] an ObviouslyEvil MoustacheTwirlingVillain so [[ViewersAreMorons the poor, dull-witted kids wouldn't be confused]] about why Martin was suddenly rampaging around and being a mean person, and be happy when he turned [[FamilyUnfriendlyAesop normal]].
*** [[WildMassGuessing Maybe the DNA he was given in the lab to make him smart had been derived from a British-bred lab mouse with a different fur color?]]
*** Just speculating, but considering how Martin appeared to have become something of an evil Necodemus, complete with robes and psychic powers, and how during his Villain song he appears to switch back and forth between his old and new appearance, while changing the background into an evil candyland, it's possible his change in appearance is some kind of mental illusion to intimidate Tim, either psychically or through the use of some new device he created. Kind of how some people speculate that the God-Emperor of 40k didn't actually look half as impressive as he appeared, and that his golden armor and blinding aura were illusion.

* So...The real NIHM. They don't really test on poor little animals, do they? If they do, please say they are smart enough to not stick their intellectually enhanced specimens in easily opened cages.

** Given the way the owl's eyes glow just like Nicodemus's, I would say it's pretty apparent that he was another of the animals from NIMH (unless he somehow got into [[{{Dune}} the spice]]).

* Okay, let me start out by saying that I loved the movie. It's a classic movie full of fun, adventure and NightmareFuel, with beautiful animation and interesting characters. But I have to know: why did they change Nicodemus from the awesome eyepatch-wearing BadAss we see in the book to the frail old mystic we see in the movie?
** It's likely that Bluth probably wanted to make it seem a little more like NIMH's experiments with the rats sort of gave them special powers beyond human capacity...though one thing I honestly wonder is why only ''he'' seemed to receive such powers...everyone else seems rather...BadassNormal compared to Nicodemus. (What kind of DNA gave him the power to create Deus ex Machina stones or see the future?) Of course, it's highly unlikely that he knew there would be a canonical written sequel to NIMH that would show Nicodemus to be more of a badass.
** What exactly was badass about his book characterization?

* Why do people insist that Don Bluth's version was actually faithful to the book?
** Because it kind of was, compared to other movies. Think about it - did Franchise/HarryPotter stick to the book? How about HisDarkMaterials? Remember, when they're turning books into movies for kids, they always add/take out some things. But other than the few things they altered, the movie was pretty faithful to the book. Even if they hadn't portrayed NIMH as a cruel place where rats were genetically altered, the people who have strong feelings about animal cruelty would have gone nuts about it anyway, so why not just do it?
*** I have a feeling that the opposite ended up happening with the protrayal of NIMH as a cruel, torturing facility. It ended up creating a generation of people who thought that all scientific facilities rounds up defenseless animals from the wild and injects them with painful serum that alters the animals dramatically.
*** Certainly from the rats' POV it would seem cruel in either case: The rats and mice are kept confined in cages, routinely jabbed with needles, run through strange routines, their food is bland, if plentiful. Their treatment may actually be humane, but it wasn't worth it, and they ultimately seek freedom, even with all the threats of traps, poison, predators.
** If you say that The Secret of NIMH is an unfaithful movie, most people will think you're saying that it's a bad movie as well when one doesn't neccessarily mean the other.
** The movie changed a lot of details, but it got the spirit of the book absolutely right. It's the same way fans say ''Film/BatmanBegins'' is the most faithful Batman origin movie yet when, in many ways, it changed everything about the story. It got the tone and the essence down so perfectly, though, that the stuff that got changed didn't really hurt anything. The same thing works for ''TheSecretOfNimh''. There's a magical MacGuffin, Jenner's a full-on villain and a lot of the character details were rewritten, but Mrs. Brisby/Frisby is precisely true to herself, the essence of the story is intact and most importantly, it keeps the same mature tone as the book. That's what fans are really talking about when they say it's faithful to the book.
*** The "true to yourself" aspect wasn't part of the spirit of the book at all. The mature tone was more focused the Plan and even then it was a fairly lighthearted story.
** TheShining is considered to be one of the best horror movies of all time, and StephenKing said it wasn't faithful to the book. It doesn't really have to be faithful, just good in its own right.

* Why is Jeremy in this movie? He wasn't funny, he had next to no impact on the plot, he kept leading to awkward mood whiplash, and his story didn't really go anywhere.
** This troper personally adored Jeremy, though admits he was awkwardly placed in the film. His early role was important somewhat (saving Ms Brisby from Dragon and flying her to the Great Owl) though that was the problem, his relevance ended after the beginning of the film. It was likely a case of [[AscendedExtra expanding his role from the book]] to give a wider balance of whimsy and comic relief throughout the movie, though contradicted the movie's tendancy to ShooOutTheClowns whenever things got climatic. Perhaps due to being Bluth's first movie, he had more problems with the story and balancing the cast (other characters seem to drift in and out as well, such as the infamous BigLippedAlligatorMoment that was Brutus), Jeremy actually seems like something of a prototype for later comical roles in Bluth movies such as [[WesternAnimation/AnAmericanTail Tiger]] (the fact the majority of them are also voiced by Creator/DomDeLuise only fuels this theory further).

* Why do Brisby's children, Auntie Shrew, and Mr. Ages all have neat, well-lept clothes, while Mrs. Brisby only has that cape/shawl that's torn and ragged?

** Owls ''do'' have eyes which partily reflect light, like cats. It helps them see at night. [[RuleOfCool Although it was made more obvious for the film.]]
** See my answer to the question about the owl's identity above.

** Really, it's simple when you realize that the Great Owl is actually filling the part of a ''Great Wyrm:'' an ancient dragon that has a very predatory (and well-earned) reputation but is a store of ancient wisdom for those brave enough to parlay with him in his lair. Like many neutral Great Wyrms of fantasy, he also is aligned with an ancient, powerful mage: Nicodemus. The only thing missing was smoke and brimstone curling out of his nares.

** Because it kind of was, compared to other movies. Think about it - did HarryPotter stick to the book? How about HisDarkMaterials? Remember, when they're turning books into movies for kids, they always add/take out some things. But other than the few things they altered, the movie was pretty faithful to the book. Even if they hadn't portrayed NIMH as a cruel place where rats were genetically altered, the people who have strong feelings about animal cruelty would have gone nuts about it anyway, so why not just do it?

** The book, "Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of NIMH" goes into a lot of detail about how the rats were taught to read. The Institute wasn't a "cruel place" where evil experiments were practiced on a variety of animals. It was strictly rats and mice that were given a "new strand of DNA", plus steroids of some kind. Nicodemus recounts how the rats were placed in a room, shown a picture of a letter while a recording of someone saying the letter played. Justin played quite a large role in the rats' eventual escape; he was the first to figure out how to read; he was the first to actually get out of the cage, etc. The book also explains how the rats developed the Plan, how they were able to obtain rat-sized tools and equipment, how they met the Great Owl, etc. Definitely a case of "the book was better."
*** For some, the movie was AdaptationDecay, for others, just AdaptationDistillation. Some like them both equally for different reasons.

* Martin's character design in the sequel when he's evil is nothing like his usual character design other than his eye color. And even then, Martin can somehow conrtol the appearance of his eyes, like the hypno spiral. His fur is much darker. He had a cream colored pelt and a white shape on his chest (you know, the type in every animated show with a talking animal) but now he has dark gray (green in some shots) fur. Who does his dye job? They did a crappy job sense his fur color changes back. He seems (he's wearing a cloak) to have lost weight and grown taller. Fine, I can understand that but these he then shrinks and gains back the weight. And now he has a British accent. Fine, Stockholm Syndrome would explain that if the humans were British. But he becomes American again once he's good and his voice also becomes that of a fifteen year old as opposed to Evil Martin's quite adult voice. How does that work?!