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** Gellatin, at least, did object when Ru'afo decided to use the Injector with the Son'a still on the planet. So in answer to the question of why not just steal the rings without relocating the Ba'ku, it could be as simple as Ru'afo knowing that relocating the Ba'ku would be less controversial among the other Son'a than killing them.
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** This point was sort of addressed in the story. There was something unique beyond the particles in the rings and to harness them required a procedure which would leave the planet uninhabitable. We were informed that the Federation's best scientific minds had looked into it and this was the only way to do this (we weren't told why this was the case but it was). As for why you couldn’t set up colonies on the planet, this was sort of addressed for the Son’a (as it would take too long to save them if they didn’t do this procedure which left the planet uninhabitable; though that doesn’t explain why they didn’t come back twenty years ago). For the Federation, the reason they couldn't just set up colonies is probably just a matter of scale. Some of the hundreds of billions of people in the Federation could visit the planet and cure a disease but many couldn't, it won’t extend the average lifespan long term and it would be no use for helping save a soldier on the battlefield who wouldn’t have time to make the trip.

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I mean, the rings are in space, the village is on the ground. Why can't they just use some sort of fancy space bucket (assuming the transporters wouldn't work) to collect some of the ring material and fly it back to a Federation research station? The rest of the rings will still be there, and the Bak'u will never know the difference.

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* I mean, the rings are in space, the village is on the ground. Why can't they just use some sort of fancy space bucket (assuming the transporters wouldn't work) to collect some of the ring material and fly it back to a Federation research station? The rest of the rings will still be there, and the Bak'u will never know the difference.
** They didn't. As Picard and his crew show, being rejuvenated by the radiation is as simple as being on or near the planet for even a few days. Furthermore, as is stated many times in the movie, the entire Bak'u population consists of a single six hundred person village. That planet is at least as big as Earth. If the Federation wanted to use the planet's radiation to help people, all they'd have to do is set up their own colonies. And they could've done it without the Bak'u even knowing it, let alone objecting (REALLY don't get where people keep getting that idea), as long as they were left to do their own thing on their own little patch of the planet. But then, relocating them was never the Federation's idea to begin with; it was the Son'a's, and for them, or at least Ru'afo, this was just as much, if not more, a revenge plot than it was an attempt to get the particles.
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[[/folder]]

[[folder: Maybe I'm missing something, but...why do they need to move the population?]]
I mean, the rings are in space, the village is on the ground. Why can't they just use some sort of fancy space bucket (assuming the transporters wouldn't work) to collect some of the ring material and fly it back to a Federation research station? The rest of the rings will still be there, and the Bak'u will never know the difference.
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*** Yes, but the extent of their decrepitude in them film makes it very doubtful that they are ''personally'' overseeing their subjects on the ground. They also apparently do not have a very large population, which is also problematic.
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*** Bombing a planet's people out of existence doesn't take many people or much time, but forcing an entire species into useful slavery and administering them for 50 years is a major task.
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** Crusher didn't scan any of the Son'a until they started skirmishing on the planet -- specifically, the ones that Worf nearly blew up with his purple space bazooka. Presumably she had already scanned at least one Ba'ku, which finally gave her the opportunity to compare the two.
---> '''Crusher:''' ''(shows Picard her tricorder)'' Captain, take a look at this med-scan. His DNA profile.\\
'''Picard:''' ''(surprised look)'' How can that be possible?\\
'''Crusher:''' ''(re the Ba'ku)'' Maybe we should ask ''them''.\\
''(later)''\\
'''Picard:''' ''(to Dougherty)'' Didn't you know, Admiral? The Son'a and the Ba'ku are the same race.\\
'''Sojef:''' Picard just told us. Our DNA is identical.
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*** That literally takes ''one'' person to bomb the planet if necessary. Heck, a Federation hologram could do that job!


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*** That's just more headscratchers, not a hypothesis. One can assume that, if they were accustomed to not aging at all once they reached adulthood, then ''any'' aging would be noticeable. They would have also needed to maintain some focus on medical science because leaving the planet would have also ended their immunity to illness. That would especially be a problem if they were conquering other planets (unless they never set foot on them). It seems implausible that they went from the equivalent of being in their 20's to what they were in the film overnight. And, just to reiterate, their species was not immortal prior to the colonization of the planet, so they ''knew'' that being ageless was ''not'' an inherent trait of their species.
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*** We're talking about maybe a couple hundred Son'a were ruling at least two entire species of millions or billions. It would be a full time job for all of them, no matter how much they delegated.


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*** What is middle age for their species? Do they age in the same way as humans, with a gradual decline, or is it all at once? And how does the regenerating radiation they absorbed in their youth affect the aging process? It's quite possible no one born there had ever left the planet before for long enough to loose their immortality, so they would have had no idea what would happen.
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*** Why? If they conquered lower-tech species, and their conquests were based on superior technology rather than having enough troops to occupy their conquered worlds then all they would have really needed was to keep a starship parked in orbit with the clear threat of laying waste to the planet if their subjects rebelled. The Son'a were not numerous enough to micromanage their conquests. Which is presumably why they never became a major power.


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*** Not plausible. Their species had been mortal until they settled on the planet, not that long before the Bak'u-Son'a dispute. If they remembered their technological history then they almost certainly remembered their biological history as well. By the time they hit middle-age it should have been incredibly obvious what was happening to them.
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** Did the Son'a understand how aging works when they left? Consider that they were born and raised on a planet with no aging or disease. They would see aging in the other species they conquered, but would they recognize, when their health started to deteriorate, that age was their own problem? Maybe not until it was almost too late.
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** They conquered two entire species and created a slave culture that had them completely obedient by the time of the movie. That seems like it could take some time.
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** Wow! That would take the already Broken Aesop of the film and utterly ''disintegrate'' it! If the Bak'u are not only using advanced technology, but using it to wipe out inconvenient lifeforms then ''everything'' they preach is a bald-faced ''lie'' and the whole narrative falls apart!


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** Apparently an entire ''century'' elapsed between the Son'a being banished and the events of the movie! Are you seriously arguing that in all that time the Son'a couldn't find the time to go back and do something to the Bak'u? It's not like they were running an especially large empire.
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** Considering the number of expansionist space powers just within the Alpha Quadrant alone, the Federation may find it necessary to stake a claim to territory before somebody else does. Try reimagining this story if the Ba'ku planet were in space claimed by the Breen, Cardassians, Ferengi, Klingons, Romulans, etc... ''None'' of those powers would have given the slightest credence to the Ba'ku's Space Amish nonsense in the face of such an incredibly valuable resource and any of them would have just slaughtered the Ba'ku without the slightest twinge of angst.
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[[/folder]]

[[folder: How far away did the Son'a go?]]
* It keeps being repeated that the Son'a never addressed the fact that they were aging until they were already extremely old. But it is never explained why. Even with all of their ''many'' adventures, the ''Enterprise'' crew still managed to visit their homeworlds. In the franchise as a whole, characters like [=McCoy=], Spock, Tuvok and even Kirk himself took sabbaticals from Starfleet that lasted for years. In all the time they were away, with their bodies noticeably aging, why didn't the Son'a build a settlement on the other side of the planet and make periodic returns to be rejuvenated? They wouldn't all need to do so at the same time, and their conquests were minor, rather than being a large empire needing their constant supervision. How far away were their conquests that they could not even make occasional trips back?
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Not a question about the movie itself, but about peoples reaction to it, which is outside the scope of Headscratchers


[[/folder]]

[[folder: Yay for colonialism?]]
* Is it just me, or is the YMMV page and some of the headscratchers full of the sort of gung-ho manifest destiny that went out of style sometime in the nineteenth century? It kind of seems like all it takes for some people to suddenly be heavily in support of colonialism, forced population displacement, social upheaval, and environmental destruction in the name of resource harvesting is to make the victims of all of those things light-skinned. Could the movie perhaps have carried out its message better if it had cast black actors as the Ba'ku? I somehow can't see TVTropes being so heavily into "Wipe the stupid bastards out, take their planet, strip mine it for the good of the Federation!" if the Ba'ku culture more closely resembled Wakanda.
** As quoted in the book The Fifty Year Mission, Frakes regretted not having a more diverse cast for the Ba'ku (Burton pointed out the problem on-set). Since it's a bunch of white people with a middle class aura, the whole thing has the vibe of a country club or a gated community. Even setting that aside, the moral issue that the film wants to debate doesn't really land because the plot doesn't make sense (as amply illustrated above). So I don't think you're wrong, but I don't think the film does a lot to mitigate that reflex. The writers might've been well served by sitting down and saying, "Why should the audience care about these people again?" at some point.
** The real problem is not that the Ba'ku are AcceptableTargets, it's that the plot doesn't really work.
*** The first problem is scale: For the plot to work the Ba'ku had to be a very small community - one that could reasonably fit in one holo ship, that the ''Enterprise'' bridge crew could relocate, etc. But planets are big places, with plenty of room to spare, and the regenerating radiation seems to work for anyone anywhere on the planet. It doesn't appear that it would inconvenience the Ba'ku at all if the Federation set up a "health spa" on a continent on the other side of the planet. As written it appears that the Ba'ku have an abundant resource that could benefit billions of suffering sentients that they refuse to share for purely ideological reasons. And then we find out that the Ba'ku aren't native to this planet either, further weakening their right to control that resource to just having been the ones to have discovered it first.
*** Second point: The Ba'ku denying their offspring ''immortality'' because they wouldn't conform to their views on technology is problematic no matter what color they are. The bottom line is that the Ba'ku exile non-conformists, and exile from immortality is effectively a death sentence.
*** The Third problem is that the ''Enterprise'' crew don't seem to see the first two problems. They are presented as unabashedly on the side of the Ba'ku without any real debate. This is even though they have supported relocating small non-native technologically advanced populations in the past for the greater good, most notably in the episodes "Journey's End" and "Ensigns of Command". The film could have had a serious debate about what was the correct moral choice, but just made the villains physically repulsive and had action sequences instead.
** The Ba'ku rub a lot of people the wrong way because they are extremely self-righteous about the perfection of their way of life. But the fact is that their health, longevity and easy way of life are a function of ''where'' they live, not ''how'' they live. Ironically, the plot itself emphasizes this. If the Ba'ku are removed to anyplace else then ''everything'' about their way of life will fail. Instead of feeling invigorated after a day of manual labor, they will be exhausted. Without using advanced medicine they will suffer illness. Worst of all, they will age just like most humanoid species. This makes them come across as very entitled. That they themselves have exiled ''their own children'' from all of these benefits just because they didn't agree to the terms of this CultColony only cements the image of the Ba'ku as SpaceAmish [[TheFundamentalist fundamentalists]]. Again, the irony being that the Son'a are just trying to do to the Ba'ku what the Ba'ku already did to ''them''. Picard pontificating on their behalf only made it worse considering the whole Maquis thing. The implication is that the Ba'ku must be protected ''because'' they are so white and seemingly perfect.
*** And to echo the above, neither the film nor the characters seem to realize that any of this is problematic -- we are simply meant to accept that the Ba'ku are unequivocally good. It really plays like the writers just hadn't thought the thing through.
** There is also the issue that the writers seem to have forgotten that, setting aside the Dominion trying to conquer the galaxy, the Federation is also already a {{Utopia}}. The Ba'ku talk down to them because they have not abandoned advanced technology like the Ba'ku have. But the Ba'ku have only really been able to do so and still maintain a Utopia because of the radiation that keeps them young and healthy. Other worlds attempting to adopt the Ba'ku lifestyle would suffer great hardship. Combined with the absurdity of just 600 people being allowed to claim ownership of an ''entire planet'', the writers fail to make the Ba'ku sympathetic.
** Picard chose to pass on just such a rural lifestyle, working the family vineyard in France in favor of a high-tech career in Starfleet which he has devoted most of his life to. This undermines his credibility as an advocate in this issue because he ''knows'' that high-tech and low-tech lifestyles ''can'' co-exist on the same planet because that is his own family background. But, as mentioned above, this is not discussed in the film and the absolute message of the film is that the Ba'ku are the only ones in the galaxy who got it "right", while everybody else is wrong if they do not wholly endorse the Ba'ku culture.
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** There is also the issue that the writers seem to have forgotten that, setting aside the Dominion trying to conquer the galaxy, the Federation is also already a {{Utopia}}. The Ba'ku talk down to them because they have not abandoned advanced technology like the Ba'ku have. But the Ba'ku have only really been able to do so and still maintain a Utopia because of the radiation that keeps them young and healthy. Other worlds attempting to adopt the Ba'ku lifestyle would suffer great hardship. Combined with the absurdity of just 600 people being allowed to claim ownership of an ''entire planet'', the writers fail to make the Ba'ku sympathetic.
** Picard chose to pass on just such a rural lifestyle, working the family vineyard in France in favor of a high-tech career in Starfleet which he has devoted most of his life to. This undermines his credibility as an advocate in this issue because he ''knows'' that high-tech and low-tech lifestyles ''can'' co-exist on the same planet because that is his own family background. But, as mentioned above, this is not discussed in the film and the absolute message of the film is that the Ba'ku are the only ones in the galaxy who got it "right", while everybody else is wrong if they do not wholly endorse the Ba'ku culture.
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*** The first problem is scale: For the plot to work the Ba'ku had to be a very small community. But planets are big places, with plenty of room to spare, and the regenerating radiation seems to work for anyone anywhere on the planet. It doesn't appear that it would inconvenience the Ba'ku at all if the Federation set up a "health spa" on a continent on the other side of the planet. As written it appears that the Ba'ku have an abundant resource that could benefit billions of suffering sentients that they refuse to share for purely ideological reasons. And then we find out that the Ba'ku aren't native to this planet either, further weakening their right to control that resource to just having been the ones to have discovered it first.

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*** The first problem is scale: For the plot to work the Ba'ku had to be a very small community.community - one that could reasonably fit in one holo ship, that the ''Enterprise'' bridge crew could relocate, etc. But planets are big places, with plenty of room to spare, and the regenerating radiation seems to work for anyone anywhere on the planet. It doesn't appear that it would inconvenience the Ba'ku at all if the Federation set up a "health spa" on a continent on the other side of the planet. As written it appears that the Ba'ku have an abundant resource that could benefit billions of suffering sentients that they refuse to share for purely ideological reasons. And then we find out that the Ba'ku aren't native to this planet either, further weakening their right to control that resource to just having been the ones to have discovered it first.



*** The Third problem is that the ''Enterprise'' crew don't seem to see the first two problems. They are presented as unabashedly on the side of the Ba'ku without any real debate. This is even though they have supported relocating small non-native technologically advanced populations in the past for the greater good, most notably in the episode "Journey's End" and "Ensigns of Command". The film could have had a serious debate about what was the correct moral choice, but just made the villains physically repulsive and had action sequences instead.

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*** The Third problem is that the ''Enterprise'' crew don't seem to see the first two problems. They are presented as unabashedly on the side of the Ba'ku without any real debate. This is even though they have supported relocating small non-native technologically advanced populations in the past for the greater good, most notably in the episode episodes "Journey's End" and "Ensigns of Command". The film could have had a serious debate about what was the correct moral choice, but just made the villains physically repulsive and had action sequences instead.
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Replacing subjective term with references to specific tropes.


** The Ba'ku rub a lot of people the wrong way because they are extremely self-righteous about the perfection of their way of life. But the fact is that their health, longevity and easy way of life are a function of ''where'' they live, not ''how'' they live. Ironically, the plot itself emphasizes this. If the Ba'ku are removed to anyplace else then ''everything'' about their way of life will fail. Instead of feeling invigorated after a day of manual labor, they will be exhausted. Without using advanced medicine they will suffer illness. Worst of all, they will age just like most humanoid species. This makes them come across as very entitled. That they themselves have exiled ''their own children'' from all of these benefits just because they didn't agree to the terms of this CultColony only cements the image of the Ba'ku as elitist snobs. Again, the irony being that the Son'a are just trying to do to the Ba'ku what the Ba'ku did to ''them''. Picard pontificating on their behalf only made it worse considering the whole Maquis thing. The implication is that the Ba'ku must be protected ''because'' they are so white and seemingly perfect.

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** The Ba'ku rub a lot of people the wrong way because they are extremely self-righteous about the perfection of their way of life. But the fact is that their health, longevity and easy way of life are a function of ''where'' they live, not ''how'' they live. Ironically, the plot itself emphasizes this. If the Ba'ku are removed to anyplace else then ''everything'' about their way of life will fail. Instead of feeling invigorated after a day of manual labor, they will be exhausted. Without using advanced medicine they will suffer illness. Worst of all, they will age just like most humanoid species. This makes them come across as very entitled. That they themselves have exiled ''their own children'' from all of these benefits just because they didn't agree to the terms of this CultColony only cements the image of the Ba'ku as elitist snobs. SpaceAmish [[TheFundamentalist fundamentalists]]. Again, the irony being that the Son'a are just trying to do to the Ba'ku what the Ba'ku already did to ''them''. Picard pontificating on their behalf only made it worse considering the whole Maquis thing. The implication is that the Ba'ku must be protected ''because'' they are so white and seemingly perfect.
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*** The Third problem is that the ''Enterprise'' crew don't seem to see the first two problems. They are presented as unabashedly on the side of the Ba'ku without any real debate. This is even though they have supported relocating small non-native technologically advanced populations in the past for the greater good, most notably in the episode "Journey's End". The film could have had a serious debate about what was the correct moral choice, but just made the villains physically repulsive and had action sequences instead.

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*** The Third problem is that the ''Enterprise'' crew don't seem to see the first two problems. They are presented as unabashedly on the side of the Ba'ku without any real debate. This is even though they have supported relocating small non-native technologically advanced populations in the past for the greater good, most notably in the episode "Journey's End".End" and "Ensigns of Command". The film could have had a serious debate about what was the correct moral choice, but just made the villains physically repulsive and had action sequences instead.
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*** And to echo the above, neither the film nor the characters seem to realize that any of this is problematic -- we are simply meant to accept that the Ba'ku are unequivocally good. It really plays like the writers just hadn't thought the thing through.
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** The Ba'ku rub a lot of people the wrong way because they are extremely self-righteous about the perfection of their way of life. But the fact is that their health, longevity and easy way of life are a function of ''where'' they live, not ''how'' they live. Ironically, the plot itself emphasizes this. If the Ba'ku are removed to anyplace else then ''everything'' about their way of life will fail. Instead of feeling invigorated after a day of manual labor, they will be exhausted. Without using advanced medicine they will suffer illness. Worst of all, they will age just like most humanoid species. This makes them come across as very entitled. That they themselves have exiled ''their own children'' from all of these benefits just because they didn't agree to the terms of this CultColony only cements the image of the Ba'ku as elitist snobs. Again, the irony being that the Son'a are just trying to do to the Ba'ku what the Ba'ku did to ''them''. Picard pontificating on their behalf only made it worse considering the whole Maquis thing. The implication is that the Ba'ku must be protected ''because'' they are so white and seemingly perfect.

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[/folder]]** The real problem is not that the Ba'ku are AcceptableTargets, it's that the plot doesn't really work.
*** The first problem is scale: For the plot to work the Ba'ku had to be a very small community. But planets are big places, with plenty of room to spare, and the regenerating radiation seems to work for anyone anywhere on the planet. It doesn't appear that it would inconvenience the Ba'ku at all if the Federation set up a "health spa" on a continent on the other side of the planet. As written it appears that the Ba'ku have an abundant resource that could benefit billions of suffering sentients that they refuse to share for purely ideological reasons. And then we find out that the Ba'ku aren't native to this planet either, further weakening their right to control that resource to just having been the ones to have discovered it first.
*** Second point: The Ba'ku denying their offspring ''immortality'' because they wouldn't conform to their views on technology is problematic no matter what color they are. The bottom line is that the Ba'ku exile non-conformists, and exile from immortality is effectively a death sentence.
*** The Third problem is that the ''Enterprise'' crew don't seem to see the first two problems. They are presented as unabashedly on the side of the Ba'ku without any real debate. This is even though they have supported relocating small non-native technologically advanced populations in the past for the greater good, most notably in the episode "Journey's End". The film could have had a serious debate about what was the correct moral choice, but just made the villains physically repulsive and had action sequences instead.
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[[/folder]]

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[[/folder]]** As quoted in the book The Fifty Year Mission, Frakes regretted not having a more diverse cast for the Ba'ku (Burton pointed out the problem on-set). Since it's a bunch of white people with a middle class aura, the whole thing has the vibe of a country club or a gated community. Even setting that aside, the moral issue that the film wants to debate doesn't really land because the plot doesn't make sense (as amply illustrated above). So I don't think you're wrong, but I don't think the film does a lot to mitigate that reflex. The writers might've been well served by sitting down and saying, "Why should the audience care about these people again?" at some point.
[/folder]]
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[[/folder]]

[[folder: Yay for colonialism?]]
* Is it just me, or is the YMMV page and some of the headscratchers full of the sort of gung-ho manifest destiny that went out of style sometime in the nineteenth century? It kind of seems like all it takes for some people to suddenly be heavily in support of colonialism, forced population displacement, social upheaval, and environmental destruction in the name of resource harvesting is to make the victims of all of those things light-skinned. Could the movie perhaps have carried out its message better if it had cast black actors as the Ba'ku? I somehow can't see TVTropes being so heavily into "Wipe the stupid bastards out, take their planet, strip mine it for the good of the Federation!" if the Ba'ku culture more closely resembled Wakanda.
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*** Pretty sure forced relocation of a population is illegal in the Federation too so not sure why the cloaking device would be the kicker. But as an aside, I hate how Section 31 has become the excuse every time the Federation does something less than squeaky clean. It was introduced as the dark cloud to the Federation's silver lining and an introduction of more complex morality to the moral paragon nature of the sparkly idealistic future, but instead it just became a convenient scapegoat to blame everything less than perfectly moral a Federation officer ever did for. If you take the line that Section 31 was responsible, Insurrection goes from "Even an idealistic society can compromise its morals if it becomes desperate enough, and some people have to make a choice which side of the moral line they'll stand on" to "Haha, we beat the mustache-twirlers again, shiny heroes!"
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*** Except the Son'a are not victims of a natural disaster, they're the victims of a deliberate and active attempt at genocide being perpetrated by vengeful warmongers using "the greater good" as their excuse, as most evil people often do.

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*** Except the Son'a Ba'ku are not victims of a natural disaster, they're the victims of a deliberate and active attempt at genocide being perpetrated by vengeful warmongers using "the greater good" as their excuse, as most evil people often do.
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**** Except the Son'a are not victims of a natural disaster, they're the victims of a deliberate and active attempt at genocide being perpetrated by vengeful warmongers using "the greater good" as their excuse, as most evil people often do.
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**** Well if he said "We're fresh out of warp cores that are already loaded into the warp core assembly and thus powered and containing the charge we need to attract one of those rifts if we ejected it from the warp core assembly it's not in and even if the spare warp core were in the assembly and powered and we ejected it they could just fire it a third time and THEN we'd be completely out of warp cores!" then the ship would be destroyed by the time he finished.

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